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Post by saberwolf94 on May 23, 2019 19:20:05 GMT -6
This is all good news to me. Not only is content intended to be kept in, it's quality is an important factor for the team. Furthermore, I view games as works of art, the overwhelming majority of which is given to the public. I'd feel it would be a shame if the public couldn't enjoy or appreciate certain pieces because of exclusivity. Who am I going to geek out with if only a handful of people got to experience this exclusive thing? All my excitement would turn to loneliness as nobody I know would have enjoyed it as well. What then, years later, as our copies are lost or destroyed? All that work put in and even fewer can enjoy or remember it. So I just want to say, good work to everyone who worked on this game. Those years spent will be much appreciated. You're right, all of this could have been avoided if they didn't say X content would be exclusive. They chose not to do that however. It's a matter of pride. Also it's not like half the game was backer exclusive.
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Post by saberwolf94 on May 23, 2019 19:14:05 GMT -6
Overlord : Maybe you missed the survey but we (backers) agreed on selling the exclusive staff as DLC by a landslide! No numbers were presented to me for the survey, just them generalizing that's what happened and from what I heard the survey wasn't exclusive to just backers but anyone who wanted to vote. Whether that last part is true or not they clearly haven't reliably proved the result to us and either way that survey went against what was promised in the first place.
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Post by saberwolf94 on May 23, 2019 19:04:15 GMT -6
Overlord I stand by my arguments, my point wasn't about refunds my point was that plans change and that we made investments not pre ordered already existing products. Regardless the decisions made so I won't argue the point. I do sincerely regret you feel cheated but I'm glad the content will be available to all and will help increase the success of the game. I've seen alot of hot head on the Kickstarter comments section going on how they are going to tell all their friends not to back the game because the content didn't stay exclusive so I felt I should provide a counter voice. I agree that those with the mentality of telling others not try out/buy this game are wrong as 505 going back on their word with the backers has nothing to do with the quality of the game or its value when it comes to price and content for non backers. If anything, we should encourage non backers to take advantage of this since they can. The problem is that this situation exists in the first place.
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Post by saberwolf94 on May 23, 2019 18:52:15 GMT -6
Overlord Some things to remember is that 505 did not make the decision to make the content exclusive and that plans change, by your logic since they "promised" a Wii U version there should be no Switch version and they should be selling a Wii U game in 2019. At the very least your not actually losing anything. Also there are plenty of backers that wanted the content to be available to all, it wasn't solely none backers. While it's silly to think that 505/Artplay won't be happy about the extra money, it's equally silly (to me) to think that this was done to weasel out an extra $32 out of some 20,000+ people. No one tried to rip you off, your money went into make a game that will be out in less then a month. You are correct. Which is why since multiple compromises were made they wouldn't go back on their word for this too. At the very least, I can sympathize with them going the pragmatic route with the Wii U and Vita (despite being a vita backer for the digital version) with the Wii U being a sacrifice for the Switch and Vita being dead as well by the time the game would come out with all the delays. This isn't a fair comparison with the backer exclusive content and it is invalid to say backers don't lose anything anyway. They're exercising their ability to do this because they can, weighing the minor cons with all the pros, the choice between avoiding alienating every potential buyer that wasn't a backer or keeping a promise that pragmatically could hinder sales. They wouldn't do this if this was a legal contract. My or anyone else's feeling don't matter, it is in their hands to have the resolve and keep a tough promise. They didn't and to be fair, I sympathize, they're a company at the end of the day. However, I refuse to be painted as a villain for having the decency to expect someone to keep their word after asking for my trust and then receiving it. It isn't "petty" or "silly" of me to have at least some basic pride and dignity.
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Post by saberwolf94 on May 23, 2019 18:17:34 GMT -6
Saw this among the angry comments on Kickstarter: "Slipcase is inferior to Steel books."
Someone tell Mana she's got a fan who says her art is superior to Ayami Kojima's! If I remember well, there is a backer slipcase at 60 USD and Ayami Kojima slipcase at 100 USD reward. I think they are referring to the first one. In my opinion backer in-game content should have stayed exclusive as a special bonus, wink, thank you..Even without that the game is complete, this was supposed to be just this special thing for backers that not everyone would care about in order to get full experience of the game. There will be so many bonus modes anyway. I guess it all comes to money in the end and it will discourage many people from backing future kickstarter projects. You're correct. To take someone's word, whether as a business transaction (which this kind of is) or from person to person and they go back on that, it's an attack on your pride and dignity to trust them again. I love IGA to death and I bet at this point many things are out of his control, but I won't back a future project if it happens as this isn't something you give second chances to, I have some pride and dignity. I'll just wait at the end and avoid the stress.
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Post by saberwolf94 on May 23, 2019 17:57:33 GMT -6
I'm not surprised at the extra modes being dlc, though I *am* surprised neither of the bonus characters are done. So I *think* we are getting: The base game with Miriam, complete with anything related to the castle like the "retro level", "Orchestrated music" and "IGA's Biggest Castle" obviously. Boss Rush and Speed Run are good day one updates since we did expect Boss Rush at launch for sure. All the other modes coming later was expected. As for the "IGA's Back pack" I voted to keep that stuff just for us, but Ive gotten into to many vicious fights that always ended with me feeling like an ***hole for not considering the myriad ways people might not have been able to get that content even though they may have wanted to back at the time. As for the price, $40 for the base game and $10 for the pack matches fine for backers since we are getting exclusive slipcases with Kojima's art. I feel like that covers the extra $10 but others might feel differently. And COTM was supposed to be free fr us so Im not counting that in the extra $10 because, well, then that would mean we paid for it, not gotten it free. EDIT: Also I backed for FAR more than $60, so I probably feel differently because Im also getting the soundtrack, the art book, shirt, poster, signatures etc. I've already got a punch of physical exclusive stuff. Disclosure etc. No you're not an ****ole for expecting another party to keep their word. The reality is people are just entitled to things like we can't/shouldn't be missing out on things in life. That was the deal to entice people for backing initially. People miss out on a lot of things for not being around at the right time, not knowing etc. This is a part of life in general. It's simple pragmatics, it makes sense for 505 to avoid alienating every other person that's a potential buyer than uphold a promise if they feel they can push that boundary and the pros outweigh the consequences. The game needs to be a hit after all. If this was some sort of legal contract I doubt they'd break it like this. Overall, I can't fault for being pragmatic but it annoys when we're painted as villains for having the decency to expect a party to keep their word.
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Post by saberwolf94 on May 23, 2019 17:15:02 GMT -6
Non backers aren't at fault for having the chance to get access backer exclusive content and doing so. The matter is with the publisher itself, it's all about if them sticking by their claim or not. I'm also skeptical the poll majority is that "most backers didn't seem to mind". I can't fault them too much though as at the end of the day they want this to be a hit like any publisher would, sacrificing their promise to us to appeal to everyone else in the world; it's clear what the best option is when you weigh the pros and cons of both. It is more pragmatic for them to avoid alienating everyone else that's a potential buyer than keeping a promise.
505 essentially had to choose between alienating the backers or everyone else in the world that's a potential buyer. They took the former as it makes to most sense for the game to be hit. My or anyone else's feelings don't mean a thing when it comes to somebody keeping their word, the resolve to keep a tough promise. That's the whole point at the end of the day. It would take a lot of courage and resolve for them to keep a promise that's strategically bad for the end profit of the game and I can't blame them even if it annoys me. However, that's what it comes down to, they decided to appeal to the demographic that matters more now than keeping their word.
For those that didn't back the game do capitalize on your ability to get everything but do not try to justify the company's decision as "right" or "good business model" because it works out for you to get everything even though you weren't a backer. I could sit here as well and say it's a bad business model for them to go back on their word for the backers (remember we're customers as well) which is true as now I won't back a future kickstarter if they make one. Why should I? If I can get everything later anyway there is no reason for me to let them hold my money for so long. Regardless of their reason (which makes sense business wise, I sympathize and understand what the trade off is) they went back on their word for the exclusive content. It's an undeniable fact which is why in our backer emails they give us all the explanations as why they did it and how "we know not all the backers will be happy with this".
Someone also mentioned this and it's a great point regarding shipping and import taxes. I live in Cyprus so will they cover the custom fees and taxes for multiple shipments? I would have rather they took longer if they weren't ready and ship everything in one big collector's box like they promised, we've waited for a long time anyway another month or two wouldn't make much difference at this point.
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Post by saberwolf94 on Sept 23, 2018 5:54:07 GMT -6
Of course when they said 2019 I didn't they would literally take another year but since they announced "somewhere in 2019" in the last update I don't think it would be in February let's say. Perhaps late March for the earliest I could believe. Maybe they'll start feeling the pressure of the rumored Castlevania Collection that could be on the way.
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Post by saberwolf94 on Sept 13, 2018 20:36:19 GMT -6
The podcast has had a bad run of guests who want to come on, but can't nail down a schedule. October cast though... well that's a tradition I don't want to see broken. I hope you don't either! I am very curious about what Ben would have to say about all the developments so far and the status of the game.
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Post by saberwolf94 on Sept 13, 2018 20:35:00 GMT -6
Hey XombieMike, when do you think you'll be able to make another podcast? I've been eagerly waiting for a new one for a while but now with this latest update I want to see one more than ever. Perhaps you can talk with someone that can shed more light into the situation? Every October since the BCB started Mike has had Ben Judd on and, in my opinion, those episodes have consistently been incredibly entertaining and insightful. Ben Judd throws some amazing truth bombs and seldomly holds back. Having him every October has become some sort of tradition. I hope this continues next month as well. And hopefully we can make it this time through a whole conversation with him without anyone bringing Mighty freaking 9 into it. I feel the same way, the podcasts with Ben Judd are some of the best, I enjoy hearing his insight and admittedly I miss seeing as an interpreter alongside IGA now. Nothing against Mana.
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Post by saberwolf94 on Aug 24, 2018 0:55:25 GMT -6
I can see where you're coming from with that logic akahige, but I don't believe it is correct. The first point I want to address is that we haven't seen screen shots specific to any console, so that situation isn't unique to the Vita. The most seen is a gif Angel put up a while back of a Switch with the title screen, but coming from a similar viewpoint to yours, that would only prove it runs the title screen ;p Anyway, they have talked previously about the Vita version, and even way back to October 2017 I put together a post about a couple of those. bloodstainedfanforums.com/post/48479There were/have been others, but randomly sparsed in interviews etc. Those two probably would be most topical for you anyway. In the AppTrigger interview's context specifically, this is how it goes - This was E3 2017. As you can see, he wasn't even pointedly asked about the Vita's development, but shifted to it purposely to mention how it had been going so far. Couple that with Mana's post, and I would not say "Vita never existed" unless I was a firm believer that they are both outright liars for no reason, which I know them to not be. Wow, this is very valuable to know. So they must have lost money on it now that they gave up on it.
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Post by saberwolf94 on Aug 24, 2018 0:48:24 GMT -6
I too was a Vita backer. Believe It or not, It's the only system I have which could play the game. ... To be completely honest, i don't own a Vita, but a PSTV. Talk about niche! So yeah... I really hoped in it. Now I'll have to buy new hardware Just for this game. I cannot really condemn them, though. 2015 and 2016 were one thing. 2018 is another matter. Surely... Retro city rampage did receive a PSP release years after the console was in pure retrogaming class. And its sequel is getting a physical vita release... But let's be honest here, I backed this knowing that IGA is not this type of guy. I mean, if this was his line of reasoning to begin with, we wouldn't have seen the stubborn Unreal engine mentality. If he was that kind of guy, bloodstained would be a lot more similar to shovel knight i guess. But all this is not even the First of my concerns... They released a demo, and disappointment flocked about actual graphics downgrade. What i mean is: they are having some serious trouble going on, and bigger fishes to fry. I wanted vita? Sure. But it's four years and demo still get lots of criticism, so I'll settle for much less: Just pray that the game is eventually released at some point, and is good. I'd focus on that. I'll add this: of course Armature was out of the picture very soon, and of course there's not a single line of code for the vita or wiiu versions anywhere, let alone screenshots. It tantamounts to vapourware, in effect. Sony made that announcement on vita cards and they jumped over It, It was just too tempting. I can't really blame them for this. In fact, i had lost hopes in a Vita release at the end of last year. What i found especially cruel was when they sent out the "survey deadline" months ago. That was supposed to be a set milestone, and It still had all the selectable Vita options in it. I blame that survey to deceive me into believing that, maybe, after all, they would have seen through the end no matter what, despite how unreasonable It did sound. Instead, a couple months of seaside nice weather holidays and -bam- "port cancelled due to bad evil sony", yeah... It would have been more honorable to say things straight before the survey. That hurts. You make a lot of valid points, I think there's more to this than just "sony isn't supporting the vita anymore". Of course we can't know everything that goes behind the scenes but when major changes like this happens I think we need a better explanation.
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Post by saberwolf94 on Aug 24, 2018 0:40:50 GMT -6
freddythemonkey In a 2016 interview with Miyamoto, Joshua Wittenkeller actually asked him about that quote. Miyamoto clarified, "What I meant to say is that if you release a game in a bad state, you will always regret it." So yeah, I think I more or less agree with you when you say the original quote probably shouldn't be treated as an absolute. I think, especially through a modern lens, the quote speaks more about Nintendo's philosophy towards patches than anything else. Their games have occasionally had a serious issue that needed patching (like in Skyward Sword and Pokémon X/ Y), but they generally like to try and get it right the first time (I believe the Hollow Knight devs mentioned this when working with them to get their Switch port out, but I couldn't find the interview :'c). Reviewers generally don't re-review games after patches come out, but even if they did, I think it would still be hard to deny the power of a first impression. It's a great philosophy to go by and should have been the norm. I'm just slightly annoyed they delayed it without giving an actual release date like Angel Corlux said he would if it got delayed again. The PS Vita port cancellation hurts most of all though, hopefully Nintendo does indeed release a Nintendo Switch with better specs and improves the quality of the physical product so I can get it there as the only other portable option.
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Post by saberwolf94 on Aug 21, 2018 22:28:21 GMT -6
Isn't this how porting works though? Am no professional but doesn't the game get finished entirely first and then the porting happens? Yeah, usually. But I've worked on projects where the weekly build was sent to Asia for a different team to add Asian-market specific features to the game. There was also a port for the Xperia Play being developed at one point. But both of these were done very close to the end of development and any changes were usually just bug fixes or cosmetic adjustments. When it came to porting between handheld and desktop versions though, that was a complete fork of the project done after the main version was completed. I thought so, maybe that's why they're thinking it's too much trouble at this point.
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Post by saberwolf94 on Aug 21, 2018 21:24:25 GMT -6
Hey XombieMike, when do you think you'll be able to make another podcast? I've been eagerly waiting for a new one for a while but now with this latest update I want to see one more than ever. Perhaps you can talk with someone that can shed more light into the situation?
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Post by saberwolf94 on Aug 21, 2018 21:07:36 GMT -6
.....Armature has been working on this for quite some time, right? What about their work on the engine adaptation for vita? WTF, etc.? Have you seen any screenshot of gameplay video of the Vita or Wii U? No? Well that's because they haven't done anything up to this point. The main platforms were always PS4, XBONE and PC, the "plan" was to have Armature port them to the Vita and Wii U. When the Wii U version was scrapped in favor of the Switch, I jumped on the forums to ask about the Vita version, people said that everything was still on track for that port. but it was then I realised that we had yet to see any proof that it was in development. I asked a few more time as the months passed about news, screenshot and videos, but no, nothing. A few months later and now here we are 😠 Isn't this how porting works though? Am no professional but doesn't the game get finished entirely first and then the porting happens?
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Post by saberwolf94 on Aug 21, 2018 21:03:52 GMT -6
I've been reading a lot about people saying that the Vita wouldn't have been able to run this game. I get the feeling that these people haven't played a lot of games on the Vita to begin with. I have a large library of physical Vita games I can can say this, this systems works great with 2D and 2.5D. If I compare these games on a PS3 at 720p and PSTV at 720p: Rayman Origins, Rayman Legend (with a homebrew that allows gyromotions on PSTV) and Dragon's Crown, I can barely tell them apart. And yes I know, Bloodstained was never planned for the PS3, but can you serious say that this system wouldn't be able to handle that game? I doubt a major downgrade would have been required to run this game on the Vita, but I guess we'll never know now. I always didn't know what to think, with all the stretch goals and content I imagined how the finished product would be for the consoles and wondered if the vita would be able to handle it and handle it well. But I thought hey, if the said it's coming then it must be possible so I was happy at the prospect of playing this on a portable too like Dracula X Chronicles, the DS and GBA games. I can't help but think it that yeah, the Vita wouldn't be able to handle the game smoothly which is the important part, IGA did say on an interview that he wants the game to run the same for all platforms so maybe that's what happened. For all we know they might be having difficulty porting on the switch. I'm not a professional this is all speculation, but I too feel the "Sony dropped support for the Vita" doesn't seem like the real reason.
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Post by saberwolf94 on Aug 21, 2018 19:47:55 GMT -6
Most of the time, I agree with the speculation from dareka about updates, but this time, to me, "a year" seems like too big a window for a project that has been in development for 3 years straight. Time estimation is rather meaningless in the initial development stage because there are so many things could happen. But if the main game is completed, it shouldn't be hard to estimate the time window for polishing and adjustment, including consuming all the feedbacks, optimizing for a specific console, etc. etc, since there shouldn't be much to be changed, unless: 1. They need to modify the game's basic building blocks for some critical problems.I highly doubt this possibility though, anyone that has ever been in software development knows this only happens when the manager knows nothing and doesn't care about the development at all. Or, more simply, they haven't finished the main game yet. 2. The alpha demo released this year is so poorly received that they have to redo a lot of things from the ground up.The game is finished, but it's not people wanted. 3. The main game is not completed yet.I hate to say it, but this is my guess right now. All in all, it's not about the "accuracy" of the estimation, it's about whether the product manager has a confident schedule of the product.The "2019" statement, however, is not a positive sign. As for the delay itself, I'm personally fine with 2019 (or even longer as long as the project keeps going & has the funds), but I do agree that we should know more about the progress on the project, at least right now, all the vague statements would only cause backlash on the project, which we don't want to see. As a fan and a backer myself, I would love to hear anything about the project, not only triumphs but also difficulties. About Vita, it's not surprising at all, but I seriously doubt anything that has been done about that platform, including the engine port.
I can't help but think there's more going on behind the scenes as well. Angel Corlux said in the Duel Screens Nintendo podcast that if they delayed the game again they would give a certain release date for sure and say "sometime in 2019 or 2020". It's exactly because I dug the guy and think he's real that am holding him to his word.
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Post by saberwolf94 on Aug 21, 2018 19:32:10 GMT -6
Very interesting. Well, here's hoping I'll get that fangamer e-mail soon so I can get a refund, then. I like how quickly they changed the Pledge info back on the Kickstarter page! I only went with the $60 version to get the Vita physical release, not the super-high priced one, however, so I guess I'll have to see how this goes. I'm disappointed, but not really surprised other than the lack of a digital version (which I wouldn't want anyway, considering I want this thing on the Vita, and memory card space is a premium on this thing).I guess maybe since there's another delay by the time it comes out it won't be worth it anymore? I don't know, for me I always wondered if the Vita could handle the full game and run well since they're going all out on the consoles but I thought that if they announced it there they must know it's possible.
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Post by saberwolf94 on Aug 21, 2018 19:25:56 GMT -6
What some people dont understand is that backing a Kickstarter project is a donation, not a pre-order. Of course when they promise something they should deliver but they're not on a contract with you. If things change they can and will change them and there's little to nothing you can do about it short of asking for a refund. There are risks and chaallenges when backing these projects and I'd be amazed if most of the Vita backers dont have at least one other viable current platform for gaming in 2019. Anyone who's hardcore enough to own a Vita is also hardcore enough to own at least one other platform, I remember reading somewhere that the vast majority of Vita users owned also a PS4 at least. I cant imagine there will be a significant amount of backers asking for a refund since most will probbaly just change the platform.
That's quite true, at the end of the day they're the ones in control but regarding having other platforms that's not a really professional thing to think. In my case I'm getting the physical release on PS4 and ordered the digital one for Vita and don't have any other current platforms to get it on. As luck would have I don't own a Nintendo Switch but plan to get one in late 2019 or 2020 so as long the code doesn't have an expiry date for redemption I can enter the NS as the other platform. But if it wasn't for that then I'd have no choice but to get the same game twice for the PS4. Fangamer replied to my message saying as far as they know NS codes don't expire so maybe it can work out like this.
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