Astaroth
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Post by Astaroth on May 4, 2016 12:55:27 GMT -6
I don´t really know what staggered content means, even after translating it-.- but i see 3 possibilities: 1. When it´s like MMO-maingame+expansions, the concept sounds damn nice, the maingame is complete itself (what we´ve all paid for by smashing stretch goals in the KS campain). The expansions are DLC (for paying $$$ or Kickstarted itself, whatever), which would bring a Worldmap with locations beside the castle for example, also beeing the the foundationstone for placing IGA´s next castle/game on would be a step to make it even bigger and better from year to year like we all know from MMO´s. The good ones are complete itself but growing over the years into something even closer to perfection. 2. When it´s like that PS4 and XBOX games..,fully incomplete releases for max money+releasing minor additional DLC content every few weeks to rip off blameful amounts of money from the pawns that hoped for a good game-.- 3. To ensure the release date, the game will be broken into pieces and releases one after another.. it would be more like 1, look to shovel knight, there was the main game, which was complete on launch but still had updates to fix little bugs found later on, and there was an extra mode that was released sometime later that let you play the main game as plague knight with his own storyline, it takes all the great content of the main game and remixes it to create the new mode also, i know im going to catch hell for saying this but i kinda wanna address 2 and 3, but video games are sold at an insane discount compared to the 'golden era' of nes/snes, if you only account for inflation games should cost somewhere around $120, and thats not taking into account the skyrocketing cost of making said games, so publishers either have to sell the games at 60 and hope for an insane number of sales (which has the side effect of even if a game sells 10 million units and is liked and people want more its still considered an abysmal failure because it didnt turn a 'huge profit'), or they find ways to sell a game at a higher price by chopping out entire story sections and making it dlc, offering some little trinket or dlc skin for the 'deluxe edition', microtransations, a subscription service for a non mmo, horrendously overpriced dlc or massive amounts of tiny dlc, keeping the digital version at full price indefinitely, etc etc etc (which pisses gamers off because its seen as a sneaky cash grab, which sometimes it absolutely is, other times its actually a necessary evil), so all this ends up becoming a sort of mexican standoff of catch-22s that feeds into the current practice of releasing the same game over and over with tiny changes while killing off anything that doesnt sell 50 million units day 1 because publishers have to stay in business and business is all about maximizing profit while minimizing risk >.> for instance ff7 cost $45/100mil to develop and market in 97, today that would be over 200mil just taking inflation into account, i cant imagine how much the remake is going to cost to make and market, and people are already ripping hair and rending clothes over the fact that its going to be split up into multiple 40-60+hr games (as opposed to a single 60-80+hr game?), and ff15 dev costs are somewhere in the 60-80mil range (i wouldnt be surprised if ff7r takes 80-120mil in dev costs alone, can you imagine the numbers theyd need for a single game ff7r release at $60 8 years into development?) now imagine that you wait to grab that already half priced physical game used at 30 (which the developer gets none of that money, it all goes to the reseller) or wait till a steam sale and grab that game at 10 (which a portion does go to the devs after steam takes its cut) and you see that its not so straightforward, its more a big ball of wibbly wobbly, gamey wamey stuff >P |
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Post by saberwolf94 on May 4, 2016 14:14:26 GMT -6
The ideal scenario for me would be for the game to come as full as it gets, seems logical since as backers we get exclusive backer content that isn't lightly stuff. Now if there's additional DLC I don't know how they would do it for this game unless it's stuff like exclusive weapons and materials it would be kind of lame. I suppose this will vary from person to person but for the people that backed in the higher tiers I want to feel that I paid everything to be paid. It's going to be annoying if there's a lot of DLC separate from the game. If it was like Harmony of Despair it would make more sense for that kind of game with additional areas for DLC etc.
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Post by CastleDan on May 4, 2016 14:40:28 GMT -6
The ideal scenario for me would be for the game to come as full as it gets, seems logical since as backers we get exclusive backer content that isn't lightly stuff. Now if there's additional DLC I don't know how they would do it for this game unless it's stuff like exclusive weapons and materials it would be kind of lame. I suppose this will vary from person to person but for the people that backed in the higher tiers I want to feel that I paid everything to be paid. It's going to be annoying if there's a lot of DLC separate from the game. If it was like Harmony of Despair it would make more sense for that kind of game with additional areas for DLC etc. Yeah but this isn't DLC that you are paying for. This is downloadable content coming a bit later because it couldn't be finished in time. Again: The core game with the core set goals is what is dated in 2017. Now think about how much we blew their expectations away and kept going higher and higher with more and more modes being added on. That pushes the release date back much farther. So their reasoning is, let's release that original content first so fans don't have to wait many years for everything to be finished, and then we just give them the additional content as it's ready. That makes complete sense to me. We get to play the game, and when the content is ready we get to download it. It's not like they're saying this is all part of the main vision so we cut it out and are gonna charge you for each section we give you. |
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Post by Motoko on May 4, 2016 15:54:51 GMT -6
To keep myself extremely short and simple I am totally fine with this  Motoko is back!  Glad to hear that you're content with this decision. Yes, I'm back  |
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Post by crocodile on May 4, 2016 16:31:27 GMT -6
Huh, there is more confusion on this than I expected - especially since I even put up some games as examples that have done this in the opening post  If you're a person who doesn't have stable access to broadband internet (to DL content) or are worried about the ability to archive the game or pick up full copies of the game 10/20+ years in the future when the DLC servers are down then I can understand concerns but otherwise you're getting everything you paid for (no extra costs) - just distributed over time rather than all at once at the end. It means you are likely going to play the main game (plus some other content) a full year earlier than you would otherwise and then get to come back to the game every few months when new content is out. Seems better to me than a guaranteed 2018 release date to me. Excessive cussing? Son, that was Virgin clean language compared to what I'm capable of when I'm really fired up. You would need to wipe the blood from your eyes before you could see the ban button if you saw my true cussing form. I make demons cry when I truly "cuss" Well, on a forum like this we eat demons for breakfast. There's a time and a place for that, though, and this thread doesn't have to be it. I can understand why you're angry, and sympathize with you, but even if you don't think your language was excessively foul, if someone else asks you politely to turn it down, it's a mild request a reasonable man would accommodate. And as I'm sure you and all of us can agree, it's a lot more fun dealing with reasonable people than demons ;D So let's all try to be reasonable rather than combative, and keep our discussions generating more light than heat. And on that note, perhaps IGA and his team will end up surpassing your expectations. Like I said, I understand your complaints about DLC, it can get pretty annoying. However, if IGA is following the Shovel Knight example, he's not going to be nickel-and-diming you. In Shovel Knight's case, backers got all the "DLC" *for free* when it was released--i.e if you backed the proper tier in the original timeframe, you could download Plague Knight free of charge. So yeah, while it'd be nice to have everything ASAP, if that's not doable you'll still be getting everything you paid for, just in chunks rather than one package. Patience is a virtue, and good things come to those who wait  Just as a clarification, everybody got the DLC (and any future DLC) for free regardless of whether or not or not they contributed to the Shovel Knight Kickstarter Well, one possible solution that could please both sides could be that the digital copy releases with x modes, and every backer gets a redeem code for their tier, and they wait to ship the physical discs with the complete game when all the modes are finished and the game gets its final update, That way everybody gets the game in a timely manner, the devs get the reprieve of a staggered release and additional backer feedback on possibly making modes more awesome, and the physical backers get a disc with the full game on it but dont have to wait longer to get the game (shipping and all that), also would give fangamer a little extra time to make sure theres enough stock to fill every order so they arent dealing with as much stressful crunch time^_^ What do yall think? And pease keep in mind for all this speculation we dont know what is actually considered part of the staggered content, it could be the server to run all the online modes This seems absurdly convoluted. As has been said, no solution will please everybody though - what is described in the OP is pretty straight forward (as would releasing everything at once at the end) so I'd rather they stick with that . |
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Post by nekurors on May 4, 2016 18:24:46 GMT -6
Well i always said on my comments that i am into the stagged model, so we can have the core game much faster and wait for the extra content from updates, i do not see why should someone prefer to have the full game 6 months later (for ex.) than have the core 6 months earlier and receive let's say one extra per month in the form of updates. Bloodstained promised quite a lot of bonus content, we do not have to be so greedy and want it all from day one, i am sure everything based on the core game will be there, what's the point on having the extra content so early? It would only delay the release date anyway, so i am 100% in favor of the stagged model.
Anyone against it please explain yourself, what would we gain from waiting more to get the complete game than get the core first and updates later.
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Post by LegallyBlindGamer on May 5, 2016 14:17:48 GMT -6
Also, one of my biggest pet peeves in gaming, and tech in general, is updates that don't add anything to the product in question. For example, whenever they say, "various fixes" in a changelog and nothing else, I begrudgingly download the update just to have the latest version. It always leaves a bad taste in my mouth, so to speak. Having a staggered release like Shovel Knight, Freedom Planet, or Splatoon fixes this by adding new content with each update.
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Post by LordKaiser on May 5, 2016 14:52:48 GMT -6
Easy just release the digital version as a staggered release and leave the physical version as a full version with all the DLC. Those who are in a hurry to play the game may upgrade their pledge to the Physical + Digital version.
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Astaroth
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Post by Astaroth on May 5, 2016 18:06:50 GMT -6
well, releasing an update that line by line goes
edited line 3452 from 009fe27c 77cfd634 USER32!DispatchMessageWorker+0x3bc to 009fe27c 77cfd634 USER32!DispatchMessageWorker+0x4bc to improve overflow checksum in the event of corner oob softlock
possibly hundreds of times would be both tedious to compile into a document and put into update notes most wont read anyway (and even fewer people would know whats going on anyway due to it being a snippet of a block of code that could reference several other blocks of code you shouldnt be able to access to see), and while the coding language itself isnt protected the coding that in sum makes up the game is, the various bugfixes is a shorthand that seems stupid, but is there to get the point across that a problem was found (try not ever making a mistake dealing with millions of lines of code >P) and it was addressed to improve your experience
for a really good example watch the first or second episode of guild grumps, arin got bored and decided to go exploring in a game about exploration rather than follow the quest and it completely broke the game for him and he couldnt progress because npc went derp, ross had to pay money to set up a second character to get around it, would you want to have that as the first experience you have with a game if updates didnt exist?
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Post by crocodile on May 6, 2016 0:16:36 GMT -6
Also, one of my biggest pet peeves in gaming, and tech in general, is updates that don't add anything to the product in question. For example, whenever they say, "various fixes" in a changelog and nothing else, I begrudgingly download the update just to have the latest version. It always leaves a bad taste in my mouth, so to speak. Having a staggered release like Shovel Knight, Freedom Planet, or Splatoon fixes this by adding new content with each update. I'm not sure I follow. Should bug fixes be held until there is new content to release as well? What about when a developer has stopped making new content? They can't fix there game anymore? This is a weird pet peeve |
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on May 6, 2016 7:12:10 GMT -6
Sounds like he just wants an itemized, more exact description of what was done instead of the blanket statement of "various fixes", as mundane as that description might be, as Astaroth pointed out.
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Post by JoJo on May 6, 2016 7:59:20 GMT -6
Truthfully, when I heard about the staggered content release
I was expecting to have ALL of the singleplayer aspect of the game, anything that can be play with singleplayer, will be released first
Then the extra afterthought DLC (extra costumes and stuff) that maybe will become icing of the cake, and multiplayer aspects will come later
Unless that is not what we getting, then I don't know what to feel
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Post by Shax on May 6, 2016 8:55:40 GMT -6
Truthfully, when I heard about the staggered content release I was expecting to have ALL of the singleplayer aspect of the game, anything that can be play with singleplayer, will be released first Then the extra afterthought DLC (extra costumes and stuff) that maybe will become icing of the cake, and multiplayer aspects will come later Unless that is not what we getting, then I don't know what to feel They would probably include all the single-player stuff when the game is initially released. There is really not point not to since....Bloodstained is a single-player game at its heart. Considering the whole debacle with Mighty 9, then they probably wouldn't make the same mistake twice and try to include online at release. In hindsight, what really effect would online multiplier have on the game anyways? Most people would rather play with their friends at this houses rather than online. I'd say you have a pretty good chance of getting what you predicted. |
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Post by saberwolf94 on May 6, 2016 10:46:48 GMT -6
The ideal scenario for me would be for the game to come as full as it gets, seems logical since as backers we get exclusive backer content that isn't lightly stuff. Now if there's additional DLC I don't know how they would do it for this game unless it's stuff like exclusive weapons and materials it would be kind of lame. I suppose this will vary from person to person but for the people that backed in the higher tiers I want to feel that I paid everything to be paid. It's going to be annoying if there's a lot of DLC separate from the game. If it was like Harmony of Despair it would make more sense for that kind of game with additional areas for DLC etc. Yeah but this isn't DLC that you are paying for. This is downloadable content coming a bit later because it couldn't be finished in time. Again: The core game with the core set goals is what is dated in 2017. Now think about how much we blew their expectations away and kept going higher and higher with more and more modes being added on. That pushes the release date back much farther. So their reasoning is, let's release that original content first so fans don't have to wait many years for everything to be finished, and then we just give them the additional content as it's ready. That makes complete sense to me. We get to play the game, and when the content is ready we get to download it. It's not like they're saying this is all part of the main vision so we cut it out and are gonna charge you for each section we give you. The way I view DLC is extra content to add gameplay hours on that game or things like costumes, weapons and all that little stuff. Of course that isn't everything but what am trying to get that is with all the stretch goals and stuff that we unlocked we should (key word is should) have unlocked the complete game of IGA's vision in it's entirety. With a game that should be this full, it makes me think how can there be even more areas for DLC? Also, while I get that people are eager to play this game as soon as possible and am one of them too, but I'd rather wait 3 years for a complete game at the players disposal with all the options available for how to play it. It's true that we blew their expectations but you shouldn't underestimate IGA for all we know he could do it and even if there's still a delay which I'd find normal it could only be for a couple of months. You also should keep in mind that this game is coming for Vita too so there should be a limit on how much they can go overboard. Not trying to underestimate the capabilities of the Vita but there's no way it could fit and run everything smoothly if they'd go overboard on the consoles. It still won't be a mega demanding game but it's gonna be a huge 2.5 one so you never know. At the end of the day we'd have to have the stuff in front of us to judge because it depends on the context; without it nobody can say exactly if how they went with it is good or bad and honestly I don't expect IGA to make the game and then release more large content for purchase but who knows, like I said we have to wait and see the stuff in front of us to judge. |
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Post by crocodile on May 6, 2016 11:15:21 GMT -6
Sounds like he just wants an itemized, more exact description of what was done instead of the blanket statement of "various fixes", as mundane as that description might be, as Astaroth pointed out. Oh you mean thorough patch notes? Yeah, I'm always behind that. It always frustrated me when patch notes are vague, especially for games like Fighting Games where even small changes can have huge impacts. It still annoys me that Smash Bros patch notes are so anemic and its up to the community to figure everything out. Capcom used to be that way too but at least they've improved recently. American Developers tend to be better with patch notes than Japanese developers overall - perhaps because they tend to be less secretive or better understand their value? ANYWAY, I agree that good patch notes are awesome - that didn't seem to be what LBG was talking about but whateves |
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Post by CastleDan on May 6, 2016 12:04:05 GMT -6
Yeah but this isn't DLC that you are paying for. This is downloadable content coming a bit later because it couldn't be finished in time. Again: The core game with the core set goals is what is dated in 2017. Now think about how much we blew their expectations away and kept going higher and higher with more and more modes being added on. That pushes the release date back much farther. So their reasoning is, let's release that original content first so fans don't have to wait many years for everything to be finished, and then we just give them the additional content as it's ready. That makes complete sense to me. We get to play the game, and when the content is ready we get to download it. It's not like they're saying this is all part of the main vision so we cut it out and are gonna charge you for each section we give you. The way I view DLC is extra content to add gameplay hours on that game or things like costumes, weapons and all that little stuff. Of course that isn't everything but what am trying to get that is with all the stretch goals and stuff that we unlocked we should (key word is should) have unlocked the complete game of IGA's vision in it's entirety. With a game that should be this full, it makes me think how can there be even more areas for DLC? Also, while I get that people are eager to play this game as soon as possible and am one of them too, but I'd rather wait 3 years for a complete game at the players disposal with all the options available for how to play it. It's true that we blew their expectations but you shouldn't underestimate IGA for all we know he could do it and even if there's still a delay which I'd find normal it could only be for a couple of months. You also should keep in mind that this game is coming for Vita too so there should be a limit on how much they can go overboard. Not trying to underestimate the capabilities of the Vita but there's no way it could fit and run everything smoothly if they'd go overboard on the consoles. It still won't be a mega demanding game but it's gonna be a huge 2.5 one so you never know. At the end of the day we'd have to have the stuff in front of us to judge because it depends on the context; without it nobody can say exactly if how they went with it is good or bad and honestly I don't expect IGA to make the game and then release more large content for purchase but who knows, like I said we have to wait and see the stuff in front of us to judge. There's a reason they want to stagger it, if he felt they could have it all completely done in a decent time it wouldn't be staggered, that is a fact. Now, I still don't get the issue here. You would be getting the main game, but there's a LOT LOT of additional content. For instance there's the mode where you play as a boss, getting the 2 extra characters, the classic mode, the speedrun mode, the rouge like mode, all these different things on top of the main game in a decent time is rough. This is a solution that they obviously feel is best. Release the main game first ( with SOME of the extra content) and whatever isn't done in time release when it is done. That just seems like the smartest route to take. I don't want to wait years for everything to be complete when I could be playing the main game in the meantime waiting. I also don't want them to rush and put out modes that are broken or buggy when they could take their sweet time on it while we have the main game complete. |
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Post by Zechs on May 6, 2016 12:31:38 GMT -6
Inti is spread kind of thin. They finally went gold with Mighty No 9. Working on Gunvolt 2. Bloodstained and Shantae. A lot for a small company. And learning from Inafune-san's endeavour, they don't want to delay and delay and delay for everything to get done.
Some don't like it, Inti knows this. But they know their work load. They know one path they don't wish to repeat. And they have Iga-san for his quality. Staggering is their way to not make past mistakes. To keep on par with the quality and to meet the extended demand of all their goals.
It would upset fans more for this to be consecutively delayed. Or if they released it buggy or with content intentionally withheld (we get enough of that with Ubi, Ea, Capcom, etc.) Iga-san wants it better than that. To please his fans and stick it to those who doubted his endeavour.
No one wishes for it to become another Mighty No 9, most of all the same company who had to...
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Post by LordKaiser on May 6, 2016 14:21:34 GMT -6
The way I view DLC is extra content to add gameplay hours on that game or things like costumes, weapons and all that little stuff. Of course that isn't everything but what am trying to get that is with all the stretch goals and stuff that we unlocked we should (key word is should) have unlocked the complete game of IGA's vision in it's entirety. With a game that should be this full, it makes me think how can there be even more areas for DLC? Also, while I get that people are eager to play this game as soon as possible and am one of them too, but I'd rather wait 3 years for a complete game at the players disposal with all the options available for how to play it. It's true that we blew their expectations but you shouldn't underestimate IGA for all we know he could do it and even if there's still a delay which I'd find normal it could only be for a couple of months. You also should keep in mind that this game is coming for Vita too so there should be a limit on how much they can go overboard. Not trying to underestimate the capabilities of the Vita but there's no way it could fit and run everything smoothly if they'd go overboard on the consoles. It still won't be a mega demanding game but it's gonna be a huge 2.5 one so you never know. At the end of the day we'd have to have the stuff in front of us to judge because it depends on the context; without it nobody can say exactly if how they went with it is good or bad and honestly I don't expect IGA to make the game and then release more large content for purchase but who knows, like I said we have to wait and see the stuff in front of us to judge. There's a reason they want to stagger it, if he felt they could have it all completely done in a decent time it wouldn't be staggered, that is a fact. Now, I still don't get the issue here. You would be getting the main game, but there's a LOT LOT of additional content. For instance there's the mode where you play as a boss, getting the 2 extra characters, the classic mode, the speedrun mode, the rouge like mode, all these different things on top of the main game in a decent time is rough. This is a solution that they obviously feel is best. Release the main game first ( with SOME of the extra content) and whatever isn't done in time release when it is done. That just seems like the smartest route to take. I don't want to wait years for everything to be complete when I could be playing the main game in the meantime waiting. I also don't want them to rush and put out modes that are broken or buggy when they could take their sweet time on it while we have the main game complete. You won't mind to upgrade your pledge if only the digital version got the staggered release since you want to play it as soon as possible right? (In case you haven't pledged digital + physical.) |
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Post by zoned87 on May 6, 2016 23:45:58 GMT -6
I'm all for this I can wait on the extra content if it means I get the main game sooner. As a Wii U owner though it leaves me wary I have bought so many games where they never bothered to add the DLC in the Wii U versions and it always annoyed me. Hopefully that isn't the case this time.
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Post by zeldazero on May 7, 2016 7:07:35 GMT -6
NOT FUCKING HAPPY AT ALL!! I don't see why I am one of the few that sees a problem with this. Maybe most don't see the problem here so let me explain why I don't like it. We will get just the campaign on disc for those who bought the disk version, then we have to download the rest later.. I want everything on the disc. There is no guarantee that the extras will always be available for download. Digital content will not always be there and ps3 was proof that stuff bought there was not just transferred to their next system and had to be bought again. So unless only digital copies come with just campaign and they hold off with physical copies till everything can put it on it, I won't be happy. Especially if they come out with a GOTY edition to make us buy it again to have everything on disk.
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quack
If you're a person who doesn't have stable access to broadband internet (to DL content) or are worried about the ability to archive the game or pick up full copies of the game 10/20+ years in the future when the DLC servers are down then I can understand concerns but otherwise you're getting everything you paid for (no extra costs) - just distributed over time rather than all at once at the end. It means you are likely going to play the main game (plus some other content) a full year earlier than you would otherwise and then get to come back to the game every few months when new content is out. Seems better to me than a guaranteed 2018 release date to me.
