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Post by CastleDan on Apr 6, 2016 10:08:28 GMT -6
Here are a couple examples of weapons from Symphony of the Night with "combo" abilities. Keep in mind that most of these use Street Fighter type inputs for their special attacks, so it's not a combo like you see in most action games. This kind of stuff I love and I hope that street fighter input aspect returns because learning the buttons for different items made it more challenging and fun rather than I click a simple button for each weapon and boom there ya go. Not everything needs to be so simple all the time. I enjoy some challenge with discovery and testing. galcian I believe it was highlighted in blue on features that are being considered. Flintlock type weapons ( flintlock pistols for instance)
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 5, 2016 23:18:56 GMT -6
With regards to combos, all I can say is please pleeease have most weapons have say, 3 or 4 chainable strikes. I love SOTN with all my soul but my replay is teaching me that the combat would feel much more satisfying if it wasn't just "slash, wait, slash, wait". Current technology obviously allows such things, and I think it would make the combat more satisfying, smoother, AND look cooler! It's one thing if it's like, a gigantic hammer or something, but I feel most weapons should have strings of attacks. That sounds somewhat similar to the combat the God of War games or Lords of Shadows games utilized. That's not a good thing in my opinion. Not that I'm opposed to chainable attacks on principle or anything or that it can't be well done. I just don't want to be kind of stuck in place being committed to do chains to inflict any real damage - especially as a default or the majority of combat as you propose. I prefer the speed and snappiness of standard Igavania combat to stuff in the Lords of Shadows series. The combat of say games like Devil May Cry or Bayonetta is aces but this isn't the sort of game that wants/should/is even able to emulate that sort of combat in a lateral, side-scrolling game. With crocodile in this. I'm all for new ideas but not if it'd change the very feel of what makes igavania games igavania games. Going to a combo type system changes the very pacing and feel of the game into something it's not.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 5, 2016 14:41:09 GMT -6
I noticed on the katana swing clip that the weapon does not have an arc trail. Will there be weapon trails (i.e. the curved arc you get when you swing the Crissaegrim in SotN) eventually? I know in the early clip of IGA playing around with Miriam hitting the floating eyeballs, there were weapon path arcs. I just assumed they would be in. Maybe the weapon path arc isn't in the katana clip to better show the movement of the swing? Yeah, I hope that's still in it. It's a nice little visual that helps the sword have a bit more visual flair.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 5, 2016 10:54:52 GMT -6
You can detatch em? Where was this mentioned? Igas last video doesnt say the player can choose to detatch them, just that they werent included in the older build he was showing us. Mana mentioned they're detachable. Which implies that they might be like the capes in SOTN, in that you can find different types and they change visually. Except in this case you can take them off entirely as well. Best of both worlds. I'm glad my assumption was right about this ^ Turns out we will have the ribbons and the curse glow together! Should be some nice visuals for the character.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 5, 2016 9:48:51 GMT -6
Re: combos, I mean...I'm certainly a fan of combos, I've traveled for fighting games for over 10 years now, but the manner in which they have been presented in similar games can kind of hinder the design of an Igavania. Weapon/spell variety is the aim rather than fewer weapons with more skills/attacks, with presumably this game allowing you to fashion stronger/create newer weapons even further from what you have. It's a variety of broad gameplay options as opposed to focused combat. However, what these games do and should have are special attacks unique to that weapon. After executing the motion, the weapon does do a multi-hit attack more often than not, and this technically is a combo. Taking that a step farther, maybe the special attack can be canceled into from your normal attack, and that special attack canceled into a crystal spell. There could be more options from that. Instead of adding in combo paths, there could be cancel windows that allow somewhat freeform attack options that use resources. Some weapons in SotN had 1 special, some had 2, and a couple had several. Just the variety and possible interaction/buffing possible from the game's other crystal/alchemy/spell system should give everyone a fun, unique gameplay experience to experiment with. Variety, variety is the spice of life. Not only did weapons have specials but different button input presses did different things sometimes so it's not always the same button to activate something in the game. Which made the game (appear) deeper, which I loved. I like discovery sometimes, I like to know that hey maybe it's not this button combination but this one instead and figuring things out. Anyways, I really do hope that they bring the weapon specials back with some good variety. I'm loving everything I hear about this game. It's the perfect mixture of all the igavanias.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 20:18:15 GMT -6
I think we should wait till we get that ribbon and that background to truly judge the speed. It's too incomplete to fully judge it. ( Maybe the next update?) Judging based on just the visuals of the characters Miriam looks about the same speed as Alucard in jumping and running, and Shanoa in terms of sliding. The ribbon and backgrounds will give the sense of speed.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 17:15:29 GMT -6
Yeah iga mentioned the ribbons but i bet the rom he got had them disabled or detached, well see them in time, but i do like the sparkles coming off the crystal, its really nice As for max, i think having a sort of 1-2 (possibly 3 or 4 for powerful weapons) punch where its a simple animation flow as opposed to the branching combo trees most combo systems have could be an interesting way to help differentiate weapons within a category without bogging down the combat, like for miriams kick a later weapon has her do a straight kick and if you press the button again quickly you now get a heel drop instead of the straight kick again but the damage, attack cooldown, and hitbox doesnt change from the initial attack of that weapon Yeah they probably wanted to work on the motion of the ribbons when jumping and attacking ..etc.. before they show it off.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 16:20:55 GMT -6
It seems that there are a lot of particle effects coming off of Miriam's back from the crystal flower there. We just can't see them all on the grid map due to the lack of a dark background. Extra flowing garments and so forth may not be needed once we see how well the particles leave a trail behind her. They already said it didn't look right without a cloth behind her which is why they added it. Either way it's a non issue since its detachable. I think the ribbons look awesome because she looks kinda barren costume wise without them in motion. I mean soma and Alucard had after images AND capes so I see why the ribbons were added
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 12:30:18 GMT -6
When the character is essentially the same size as Alucard, I don't see gameplay being effected as SOTN was great. Gameplay will be effected if systems that change your character are harder to notice, which makes the point of adding visual changes less enjoyable. Miriam is notably bigger than Alucard. And honestly, Alucard was kind of big to begin with. In sprite-based games, character size was very much a result of the technical limitations. A couple extra pixels meant a HUGE difference in terms of visual quality. One texel was one pixel, and there were not many pixels to work with. But this is not so with modern technology. With modern tech, the character can be made even smaller on the screen and show plenty of detail, and making the character show more detail honestly feels like taking a step back. I'm curious what gameplay systems you expect will have to be noticed on your character. If a mechanic were dependent on being seen on the player, it would by necessity have to be pretty obvious. If it were so small that a difference of character size between 15% makes it hard to notice, then it is probably designed wrong. Is NOT notably bigger. Alucard being big was never a problem to me especially because of how beautiful the sprite was and how well animated the character is.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 12:08:39 GMT -6
You've played previous Igavania's right? Did they bug you that they didn't have combos? It sounds like a huge bummer to you but I'd imagine people who've played these games for a long time probably wouldn't care that it didn't have combos. I only played SotN though, and that is the first game that I played when I was a still a child, even though I don't understand anything yet when I played it since English is not my native language, but I do have a lot of fun with it But ever since that, I'm not that good when picking video games, and I always picked those 3D ones, since a kid wants to look at those fascinating 3D games, I played a lot of those games with combos, so yeah, kinda imprinted to me See that context makes me understand your point of view more. You only played one Igavania game and you're more into 3d games, so that makes sense why you'd want a combo system. Whereas a lot of fans here in more cases than not have played many Igavania's so the suggestion of a combo system is sacrilege:p Context is everything.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 11:59:00 GMT -6
JoJo I don't, and it's absolutely fine if you do. Igavania's never needed combos the depth came from elsewhere and the pacing is what made the games. Combos slow down the pace of a game. IGA already said they won't have a combo system in this game and it'll be focused on slash and evade. With how things stand now, I think I will have to kiss combo system goodbye But with one things I want to hope for, I hope the animation for the each attack will have a subtle difference to it, so I will be able to imagine it as a combo You've played previous Igavania's right? Did they bug you that they didn't have combos? It sounds like a huge bummer to you but I'd imagine people who've played these games for a long time probably wouldn't care that it didn't have combos.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 11:56:48 GMT -6
I think we're all just too used to the DS games and the small screens. SOTN Alucard looks pretty big which was on a console. I personally base my experiences off of home consoles more than the handhelds. They want to be able to show off the details better so it makes sense that you see the character better. Especially with equipment that changes the characters appearance. Gameplay ought to take priority. Perhaps to alleviate this a camera control option would be nice? Except that the camera effects they show suggests that the camera is very fixed with the environment; when you move to a new room the camera locks into place. When the character is essentially the same size as Alucard, I don't see gameplay being effected as SOTN was great. Gameplay will be effected if systems that change your character are harder to notice, which makes the point of adding visual changes less enjoyable. MakerThey have a nice turn animation in it but it's hard to see because there wasn't much turning happening.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 11:39:32 GMT -6
So much to respond to JoJo I don't, and it's absolutely fine if you do. Igavania's never needed combos the depth came from elsewhere and the pacing is what made the games. Combos slow down the pace of a game. IGA already said they won't have a combo system in this game and it'll be focused on slash and evade. @primordialrabbit wabawanga I don't think they're that different. It uses 3d models that's the extent but it's still a sidescroller and I already used the perfect example. Strider came out and it's 2.5d also but it captures the feel of a 2d game near perfectly and looks amazing because of it. So I don't really agree that just because it's 2.5d they should veer away from making it feel like 2d but that doesn't mean it can't embrace the 3d aspects of it also. Nothing about the video footage showed looks game breaking or frustrating to me with the movements, it looks very fluid just like previous igavanias. The floaty aspect like I said always gave off the vibe that the person you're controlling isn't your normal human, they have abilities and it gives them an angelic nature to them. Without the backgrounds, without the ribbons it looks a bit stiff and motionless but with those things I'm pretty positive there would be less complaints. I don't think he's slavishly trying to recreate animations because we asked him to. I think he's trying to capture the feel he desires to capture and I'd imagine he doesn't want it to feel entirely different than his previous games. That's what's driving it. Agree to disagree, it's okay if you want it snappier and it's okay for me to think striving to capture the old games feel wouldn't be such a bad thing for the game. Let IGA decide what's best for it.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 11:18:00 GMT -6
God I hope not. Why would anyone want a combo system within an igavania? It'd destroy the very pacing and feel of what makes those games special. They don't need to make Mirror of Fate pt 2. They need to make a igavania game . Ok then, with all of this animation, how about making the animation so fluid that it feels like a combo? Good enough? Why would you want a combo at all? Aren't we all here because we miss igavania games? He's never been about combos, unless it was a 3d game.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 11:14:40 GMT -6
You're comparing a 2.5D game to a 2D game. Yes, Alucard's movements looked good, but that was a sprite, and Miriam's 3D model simply looks too stiff and slow when it moves like that. It needs more improvements and changes so they'll look good. Saying that they are good because they are similar to the 2D games shouldn't be the focus of the topic because the game isn't even going to be in 2D. No, I'm saying they look good because they actually look good. My point is they match the feel of an igavania game. This isn't strider where it's super speedy in movements and the character falls down with a good bit of speed, this is a spiritual successor of castlevania and the feel of how the character moves is integral to the vibe of the game. There's a sense of grace to the fall, and that's what the float like vibe brings. The comparisons I'm showing off is to show people that it's actually not slower, it's more likely that you are used to seeing the backgrounds move behind the character which gives the sense of quickness, among other things. Ironing out that graceful type fall and changing it into a much quicker speed could change the whole feel of it in a bad way.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 10:43:13 GMT -6
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 10:04:32 GMT -6
After watching the gameplay footage Iga shared, which shows the basic grid map they are testing with, my first thought was that our heroine looks too big, or that the camera is too close to her. It's not by a lot, but a simple adjustment would make a huge difference. I feel that it works much better for a game if you can see more of the area around you, and have more room to move around. I took a screen capture of the video and measured it, and she's only about 2% bigger than Alucard in SOTN, but with all the other nuances of the 3D camera, it just *feels* a little too claustrophobic. If the view was pulled out just a bit, it would feel more open. It looks like the camera can see a vertical height of less than twelve blocks. That really ought to be extended to at least 15. I think we're all just too used to the DS games and the small screens. SOTN Alucard looks pretty big which was on a console. They want to be able to show off the details better so it makes sense that you see the character better. Especially with equipment that changes the characters appearance. I'm not against pulling out the camera a little bit though just saying that we've come from the DS games and we've been getting used to how it looks in that setting.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 10:03:17 GMT -6
The poll is funny in hindsight because they already confirmed you can detach them...so both parties can celebrate.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 9:42:03 GMT -6
With all of this animation, combo system is really not that far-fetched already so, combo?? God I hope not. Why would anyone want a combo system within an igavania? It'd destroy the very pacing and feel of what makes those games special. They don't need to make Mirror of Fate pt 2. They need to make a igavania game The Floatiness complaint- I think the people who think it's too slow or floaty ( i was one of them originally) should check out the older igavania's including SOTN. You will notice that Bloodstained is actually very close to the speed of how those games felt, from how she jumps to how she falls, to how she runs. Part of the reason you might think it's slower is because you don't have the actual backgrounds, or that she doesn't have her ribbons equipped or simply that it's hard to see it without comparing it directly with one of the 2d games. As a 2.5d game it might seem slow as of right now but they are capturing the very essence of the 2d games, so I'm really hoping they don't iron it out completely just because we are seeing it in a very raw state ( test level).
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 3, 2016 21:49:29 GMT -6
It's too early to judge the game before the final product But I'd be happier if the form of new Igavania now is the same first 2D concept mockup design that was released in 11 May 2015 I'm actually digging the 2.5d look more than that concept art
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