XombieMike
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Post by XombieMike on Dec 7, 2015 21:17:29 GMT -6
You can pick two in this poll. With the recent shader images came a big question that I have been thinking about a lot lately. I understand that were only meant to compare shaders, not show perspective, but one might assume that the design team might go that direction. The animation test for Miriam's walk was different regards to orthographic vs. perspective projection. I would like to know what everyone thinks about this. Orthographic Projection- This means the game is viewed from the side and lacks depth of field. In true ortho objects that are farther away are not smaller, but in games we make the backgrounds layered and force them to be smaller to simulate distance. The ground is flat and you can usually see below ground level, but the plane you are walking on does not look tilted. Some people prefer this for understanding where feet will land and weapons will connect with enemies. This lends to a 2D feel. Example:  Perspective Projection- This means the game is viewed from the side, but the camera shows depth of field. Things in the background get smaller as they are further away. In this projection you can usually see the ground as more than just a line that the feet of the character rests on, but unlike the old beat em up games, your character is fixed to one plane in the depth of field. Some people prefer this for visual benefits, and this is typically the industry standard these days. This is a 2D field of gameplay, but feels more 3D. Example: 
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BloodyTears92
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Post by BloodyTears92 on Dec 7, 2015 22:48:13 GMT -6
To be honest I can see the argument for both. I'm sure many would prefer Orthographic to preserve that true 2D feel but I prefer perspective. Games like Dracula X Chronicles, Assassin's Creed China and even Mirror of Fate really caught me with how utterly breathtaking a deep, multi layered 3D world can look when done right, and shader 1 really gave me that feeling again. In the end, I trust the team, and whatever they decide to use I'm sure will look great.
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Post by Valtiel on Dec 7, 2015 23:02:14 GMT -6
I greatly prefer orthographic projection, and while "this ruins the game for me" is a bit strong I do feel perspective projection would hurt the game for me. Not only do I feel orthographic projection looks better for 2D games, but considering that Bloodstained was sold to us as a spiritual successor to Iga's 2D games (and Xrd was specifically mentioned as an example of the type of 2.5D they were going for) I feel they should stick to that style as closely as 3D graphics allow, perspective included.
That being said, using perspective projection wouldn't be game-ruining for me. With proper controls and player momentum/physics perspective projection could still work. I just would prefer they stick with orthographic.
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Post by CastleDan on Dec 7, 2015 23:04:16 GMT -6
Leave it up to IGA is gonna ruin the poll. Not getting a big enough sample of taste between perspectives. Not that I don't trust his choice but I think it's better to just get a feel for what people like more and that splits it up more.
I'm going with Orthographic, it's the one look that feels truly 2d. The other perspective reminds me of mighty number 9 and that's not the direction im hoping for.
A great example of orthographic people is the original prototype of bloodstained. Looked glorious.
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Rixuel
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Post by Rixuel on Dec 7, 2015 23:28:04 GMT -6
I prefer Orthographic but ill leave it to iga to decide :3
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Post by ghaleon on Dec 7, 2015 23:28:19 GMT -6
I don't care. I think Elsword had some of the coolest 2.5d implimentation around, and I like it better than any 2d example, but I don't think bloodstained is going to have that 'style' of 2.5d... I kinda wish people would realize 2.5d games have been around for far longer than mighty no.9 though.
Note I'm aware that this isn't the diff between 2.0d and 2.5d. Just saying that if you're going to have 2.5D anyway, one view allows you to play on 2.5d's 'strengths' more IMO.
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Post by DAN G on Dec 7, 2015 23:58:43 GMT -6
I don't care. I think Elsword had some of the coolest 2.5d implimentation around, and I like it better than any 2d example, but I don't think bloodstained is going to have that 'style' of 2.5d... I kinda wish people would realize 2.5d games have been around for far longer than mighty no.9 though. Note I'm aware that this isn't the diff between 2.0d and 2.5d. Just saying that if you're going to have 2.5D anyway, one view allows you to play on 2.5d's 'strengths' more IMO. because they know people deep down wanted a 2d game and they marketed it saying they will try to get it as close to a 2d look as possible which would be orthographic imo |
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Post by ghaleon on Dec 8, 2015 0:21:26 GMT -6
Did they say it would look as 2d as possible? or play as 2d as possible? I honestly don't remember but thought it was the latter.
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Post by giwagiwa on Dec 8, 2015 0:29:32 GMT -6
You can make a game look 2d without messing up the projection equation to make everything look like you're viewing it from a large distance away. That's basically what orthographic is. Everything is viewed from an infinite distance.
Although I think the feet landing thing is a good point for a platformer game. A similar effect can be achieved by changing the field of view of the camera.
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Post by CastleDan on Dec 8, 2015 0:34:39 GMT -6
Did they say it would look as 2d as possible? or play as 2d as possible? I honestly don't remember but thought it was the latter. Well in the actual campaign they were reassuring everyone it would have the hand crafted look of classic games, and that's what they're going for. Obviously how it plays too. I think my feeling comes from how many people asked them if it's gonna be 2d and they had to explain they are gonna be faithful to that style. Here's my issue, do I have faith IGA will deliver? Sure.. My feeling personally is that we already saw what orthographic looks like with this game in the prototype as it was much more in that style. I personally feel that looked way better and it felt more like a 2d Igavania, whereas this reminds me more of Mighty No 9 because of how tilted it looks in style. that doesn't mean it can't work, I'm just saying if I have a choice I'd prefer whatever makes me feel like I'm playing a 2d Igavania on consoles because it's been a LONG time since we've all done that. |
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Post by Valtiel on Dec 8, 2015 1:11:32 GMT -6
My problem with MN9, the shader test screens, and perspective projection in general, is that it makes it look almost like you are looking into a dollhouse. The effect, for me at least, is pretty much the opposite of immersion.
Now, not all games using perspective projection have this problem. As seen in the image XombieMike posted, Super Mario 3D World didn't have this issue in the sidescrolling sections. I think this is due to it taking place in larger, wide-open outdoors areas. But for games with interior areas comprised of smaller, separate rooms they typically have the "dollhouse" issue. MN9, Shadow Complex, Mirror of Fate, and Arkham Origins Blackgate all had it. The only game I can think of that had sidescrolling indoor areas, used perspective projection, and still managed to avoid the "dollhouse" effect was Other M. Now I know everyone likes to crap on that game, but I feel it handled perspective projection pretty pleasantly (f*** yeah, alliteration).
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Post by ghaleon on Dec 8, 2015 1:35:09 GMT -6
Never really heard anyone refer to it as looking like you're looking into a dollhouse... But now that you mention it, that's an absolutely apt way to describe it. I wouldn't know since I haven't played those games you mentioned, but I think one way to reduce that effect is if you had noticeable backgrounds behind the room. like fields thru the windows, or the sky over a terrace.
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Post by Goobsausage on Dec 8, 2015 2:07:03 GMT -6
I voted for perspective projection. I like the idea of using space for depth, but I don't want it to go overboard or go full dollhouse mode. You never go full dollhouse mode. Maybe like, 10-25% dollhouse mode.
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Zankoukanshokai
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Post by Zankoukanshokai on Dec 8, 2015 3:30:27 GMT -6
Orthographic Projection has more appeal to me than Perspective Projection. I gotta say, I would like to see the game using Perspective Projection. I think I am okay leaving the projection as it is. I'm just waiting for the next batch of shaders and hopefully it's a better than the previous 2 shaders. I feel that the shader will definitely enhance the game's perspective projection.
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Post by Scars Unseen on Dec 8, 2015 4:05:33 GMT -6
I think perspective is better, but I think a shallower perspective than what the test images showed would be an improvement. Some of the edits that people posted, helped as well.
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Post by Kitti_W on Dec 8, 2015 5:24:13 GMT -6
Did they say it would look as 2d as possible? or play as 2d as possible? I honestly don't remember but thought it was the latter. Well in the actual campaign they were reassuring everyone it would have the hand crafted look of classic games, and that's what they're going for. Obviously how it plays too. I think my feeling comes from how many people asked them if it's gonna be 2d and they had to explain they are gonna be faithful to that style. Here's my issue, do I have faith IGA will deliver? Sure.. My feeling personally is that we already saw what orthographic looks like with this game in the prototype as it was much more in that style. I personally feel that looked way better and it felt more like a 2d Igavania, whereas this reminds me more of Mighty No 9 because of how tilted it looks in style. that doesn't mean it can't work, I'm just saying if I have a choice I'd prefer whatever makes me feel like I'm playing a 2d Igavania on consoles because it's been a LONG time since we've all done that. This. And it's not just a "long time". Actually we only get to play 2D Igavania on console only once in SOTN. A hard to swallow fact. |
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XombieMike
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Post by XombieMike on Dec 8, 2015 6:44:26 GMT -6
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Post by Kitti_W on Dec 8, 2015 7:06:44 GMT -6
I might have screwed up this poll by not telling everyone they can pick two. Then I'd go with ortho + leave it to Iga. Orthographic would be closer to SOTN and the likes. |
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XombieMike
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Post by XombieMike on Dec 8, 2015 7:15:14 GMT -6
Well, be sure to use the poll up there to pick the two you like. My intention for this poll was to find people's preference for one or the other and find out if this was such a critical subject to some that they would be willing to "cause a shit storm" over it. The Kickstarter comments had some very harsh opinions, and the forums had some positive criticisms. I'm just glad that no one has decided either way would ruin the game for them. It's hard to know how much an individual's opinion is either widely or narrowly shared, but those who want to "cause a shit storm" are heard very loudly even if they are a minority.
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Dec 8, 2015 8:20:51 GMT -6
Yeah, I like orthographic. Hahaha, dollhouse...that does make sense.
I'd only be okay wtih it if they do "perspective projection pretty pleasantly", but I think the challenge/risk of that wouldn't be worth it versus just going with the straight-on presentation. Parallax and things like that are great, though. I'm not against them using the good points of 3D to enhance the 2D experience, but it should be primarily just that: a 2D experience.
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