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Post by Dan G. on Dec 18, 2015 10:24:33 GMT -6
I'd say it's safe to assume the devs will implement a non-static camera. A static camera in a 2.5d game almost defeats the purpose. I expect the camera will shift to suit each area's needs and highlight what the devs want you to pay attention to. And we're not talking just the height and tilt of the camera, but also the cam's z axis position. Moving closer or farther is another great way to highlight what the player needs to do, or even just something like pulling the cam way back to show an epic vista or something. Yeah, a static camera would eliminate a lot of options and opportunities that a 2.5d game offers. I get that but at the same time I think majority of people would have just preferred a 2d game to begin with. So yeah, while it makes sense to take advantage of the qualities of a 2.5d game nothing would beat just getting the style as close to 2d as possible. The more 2.5d advantages you take the less and less it feels like a 2d game. imo
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XombieMike
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Post by XombieMike on Dec 18, 2015 10:56:05 GMT -6
I don't think the majority wants 2D, but the ones who do feel very strongly about it. I think the precision of 2D game play is what everyone wants.
Personally, I'd like to see a beautiful game that is fun to play. The six retro levels should appease 2D loyalists.
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thrashinuva
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Post by thrashinuva on Dec 18, 2015 12:54:19 GMT -6
I don't think the majority wants 2D, but the ones who do feel very strongly about it. I think the precision of 2D game play is what everyone wants. Personally, I'd like to see a beautiful game that is fun to play. The six retro levels should appease 2D loyalists. Yeah I'm not exactly asking for specifics here. I just want an amazing game and I feel like Iga and Inti can deliver. Ultimately what I want is a well polished game to surpass the likes of Symphony of the Night. I'm not necessarily asking for more of the same, but to look on what made that game so great, and make it better. My concern over graphics is simply my desire to have the game look decent. I'm not asking for perfection, but more so asking for things to not get screwed up in the end lol. As an example, Star Ocean 3 had a pretty nice art direction. Star Ocean 4 was built to appease Western gamers and tried to improve it in a Western style mixed with a Japanese style. The result was horrible, and no one benefited from it, that's what I'm trying to avoid, an art direction where no one benefits.
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Jango
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Post by Jango on Dec 18, 2015 13:10:17 GMT -6
Yep, I certainly wasn't bummed when I heard the game was 2.5d. I love 2d games but if the team had announced the game would be made with pixel art I honestly would have been disappointed. Hi-res 2d like Rayman or Ori and the Blind Forest or Darkest Dungeon would be awesome, but if that's not an option then 2.5d is great. I always got the vibe that Iga stuck with pixel art because of the tiny budget Konami gave him. He certainly didnt hold onto the pixel art style on his console games.
But yeah, one medium playing by the rules of another is a disservice to them both. I hope the devs use all the opportunities the medium provides. As long as the gameplay and feel are spot on, that is.
Apologies for the off topic digression.
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thrashinuva
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Post by thrashinuva on Dec 18, 2015 13:13:35 GMT -6
Pixel art is actually just incredibly time consuming and there aren't a lot of talented designers in the pixel art field right now. 3D models at this day and age are a lot easier to create, and you only need to make 1 model to account for all of the actions you want that character to do (unless they transform or something).
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XombieMike
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Post by XombieMike on Dec 18, 2015 16:52:11 GMT -6
... But yeah, one medium playing by the rules of another is a disservice to them both. I hope the devs use all the opportunities the medium provides. As long as the gameplay and feel are spot on, that is. Apologies for the off topic digression. It's on topic, you're good! I like that thought about one medium playing by the rules of the other is not doing either to their full benefit. It will be interesting seeing how this game play turns out.
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Clear
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Post by Clear on Dec 18, 2015 17:54:55 GMT -6
(The main game) Bloodstained needs to be 2.5D. I don't think the game will bring in as much profit post-release if it was strictly 2D in general.
Iga is very talented. And I believe he will make plentiful use of the 2.5D space in a way that will prove perspective projection will work fine.
Now I need to see any more new play/debug testing of the game... hopefully sometime soon........
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Post by Maker on Dec 18, 2015 18:40:27 GMT -6
Judging by the examples listed and the OP I thinkany here looking at perspective and thinking "no. Just no." Are likely having the image in their head of the smooth animations of other games and viaualizing it terribly in Bloodstained. God knows I did. While I prefer the first old school look I honestly don't care which way this goes...
However, I think the perspective can only be addressed once we k ow how the game will animate. I say this because most new platformers that I've played use perspective and it kills my pinpoint accuracy of gameplay. Meanwhile the old school sides scrollers give a Very clear idea of what is where and why. Without going too in depth into something I don't have a good technical grasp of. Old 2.5d mega man games threw me off hard while the anime-ish style of the traditional 2d formula compared to either mega man, metroid or shovel knight does not. SotN was very good to me for exactly this reason and it framed the gameplay very well. In the end I trust IGA implicitly with this decision, but I feel success hinges on animation and perspective giving you absolute precision. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by thrashinuva on Dec 18, 2015 20:44:25 GMT -6
If I were to describe my ideal Bloodstained experience...
The game would play normally with a 2D perspective of some sort. Maybe there would be some camera shifts, depending on what angle of a room you're in. Maybe it'd change if you were going up an elevator or a tower or something. When you go into a room and confront someone like Gebel, it would go into a cut scene. The camera would shift, and you would see a closeup of both characters. You'd be able to see their faces and another angle of the environment. It might not be full frontal, as maybe only one side of the environment will actually be rendered at any time, though if specific areas were given a full environment, then that would make it possible. Also, if a specific area had a full environment, you might only walk along the edge of the wall, say on a walkway, and then you'd see the end of the room and it'd curve around to the other side of the wall, where you'd have a completely new stage, but within the same room. I think that'd be cool.
Edit: another quick thought on camera angle.
Staircase towers are really popular. What if it was put into 3rd person mode, just for walking up staircase towers? Miriam would put her weapon away and go up the tower in a light stroll.
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Post by Rigel on Dec 20, 2015 16:55:32 GMT -6
I prefer perspective projection because I want the castle to feel as deep and alive as possible, that projection can show more details from different angles. The shaders seem to show that Iga would use this projection so Im very excited to see the final game, anyway I trust Iga disitions.
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Post by LordKaiser on Dec 23, 2015 2:21:38 GMT -6
Orthographic Perspective but perspectives can be alternated depending of the nature of the stage.
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Post by [Sheky] on Dec 30, 2015 13:58:04 GMT -6
Why not both?
Have orthographic and perspective projection as a setting that one could flip in the options. The models are 3D, you can just tilt the camera however you wished.
Personally I like orthographic projection. Having that much depth looks "wrong" to me for a 2d game.
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Post by Kaius on Jan 7, 2016 13:55:57 GMT -6
I want to say : "Why not both ?" I definitly voted for Orthographic, with no doubt !
However, maybe the Perspective could be more useful at certain bosses or plateform phases. This poll reminds me the Anime / CG discussion about cinematics. My argue is : Use both's best whenever needed. Luckily, we live in a era where, instead of choices, we can take everything, everything that can be useful. This is why a video-game can be magic.
I am also up to trust Igarashi-san's vision but I sincerly hope he will use both, mainly Orthographic (that is why I picked this choice) but also Perspective sometimes. I feel the same about Anime / CG, I like both and I would love to see what they both have to offer to the game. We are a lot to have tremoundous expectations toward this game. Let us make this happen.
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Post by CastleDan on Jan 7, 2016 14:00:31 GMT -6
Question so is it clear that they're saying NEXT WEEK we get our real update? I can't wait to see the improvements they've made to the backgrounds if the model was that improved in the new shader preview.
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Post by Dangamer on Jan 7, 2016 14:58:39 GMT -6
We're expecting to get the next round of screens from IGA and Inti Creates by the end of this week, and we'll be working to put the update together (translating Ask IGA, writing everything up, etc.) as soon as they're in. Anything can happen until we get the art from the dev team, but the middle of next week feels like a safe estimate right now.
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Post by CastleDan on Jan 7, 2016 15:14:18 GMT -6
We're expecting to get the next round of screens from IGA and Inti Creates by the end of this week, and we'll be working to put the update together (translating Ask IGA, writing everything up, etc.) as soon as they're in. Anything can happen until we get the art from the dev team, but the middle of next week feels like a safe estimate right now. Very cool. Pumped for this one, new shader is promising.
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Post by Squirrel Taskmaster on Jan 9, 2016 23:04:52 GMT -6
I completely prefer orthographic. While I know the game is being art'd as a 2.5D setup, something that can still evoke 2D sprite work would be ideal for my tastes. That said, going with perspective in some rooms would definitely be a benefit. Say for example, an area that's a catwalk between two towers, and you see the outside terrain panning beneath you while you cross it.
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Post by Reiji Mitsurugi on Jan 11, 2016 16:36:55 GMT -6
Having just finished Strider earlier today, I have to say I prefer the single-point perspective. Even though that game actually has pretty poor graphics (texture resolution is laughable), it still looks beatiful during gameplay. Not even once I felt like I couldn't judge a jump or an enemy position because of the perspective, not to mention the incredible ammount of depth it gives to the scenery, particularly for large outdoor environments (the background of the area with the dam in Strider looks amazing), which I hope we'll get a couple of in Bloodstained. I really don't want the entire game to take place inside the castle walls, it would be such a waste.
Honestly I think this whole discussion of perspective vs. orthographic is unnecessary since we've always known from the very beginning that it wouldn't be orthographic. In every piece of concept art you can see the floor, so I don't really understand why some people (granted, I haven't checked the discussion on Kickstarter, just going from what I've read from others here) are so upset about it now. What I actually hope will be discussed in the future is how angled the camera will be in general, but we need more game footage before we can assess that.
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Post by ghaleon on Jan 11, 2016 20:37:34 GMT -6
nah several people on kickstarter didn't read anything and missed the memo that said 2.5d. There were some raging going on, and people saying they broke their promise for a 2d game, yada yada... the dumb is strong in some.
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thrashinuva
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Post by thrashinuva on Jan 11, 2016 21:42:19 GMT -6
Iga, Ben Judd, and Inti knew that going in there would immediately be people who didn't fully read the details and ended up angry, and there's nothing that can really be done about that but hopefully end up with a product they'll decide to enjoy.
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