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Post by gradius on Mar 3, 2020 15:40:50 GMT -6
Never been a huge fan of roguelikes, so not a big loss for me and I think the Randomizer is a nice consolation. The Classic Mode is something I'll be more upset about if it gets lost in the mix. Glad to hear there'll still be some tweaks done for Switch. A lot's been going on in my life, and I still haven't gotten to play the game at all yet (beyond the betas). So when I do get to play it, it'll be nice to know it'll be the best experience possible on the hardware. Well, that's not even a randomizer, anyway. Loot-randomizer, is what it is. |
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Post by XombieMike on Mar 3, 2020 17:42:00 GMT -6
I'm personally fine with this change as a player. As a KS backer, I do have issues with what was being sold as stretch goals being left out.
I think what happened was this;
The KS was doing so well at the time that they had to come up with new stretch goals.
IntiCreates approved what was possible with what budget.
Deep Silver was probably still involved at this point as the publisher, as Ben Judd confirmed on my podcast that they were the ones that agreed to fund the game if interest was proven.
Kickstarter campaign ends.
IntiCreates and IGA spit ways for mostly unknown reasons on the main game that involve development speed.
Whatever happened with Deep Silver happened.
505 Games becomes the publisher and "has to" uphold all the previous expectations of the Kickstarter when it comes to funding and release timeframe.
The rest I can go on about, but I'll mention a few in no particular order.
Japan release is way after the rest of the world. Missing out on all the hype of the new game in the Japanese market.
Staggered content is announced as "free DLC".
IGA Boss and Swordwhip are no longer backer exclusive.
Vita is canceled.
Linux and Mac copies and support are abandoned causing major backlash here, yet work just fine unofficially. Communication regarding this issue was terrible.
Switch performance was unacceptable, stunting the sucess of the game on arguably the most anticipated platform.
Roguelike mode is canceled, but replaced with an interesting randomizer mode with shareable seeds.
Speed run mode is a failure.
A boss was cut that would have prevented a normal enemy dropping a progression shard.
Blah blah, I could go on. My point is, if they had a crystal ball back when the Kickstarter was inventing stretch goals they thought they could accomplish with the time, money, and teams at that time, they never would have made such stretch goals. This game would have been better if given unlimited funding, time and talent. The vision was obviously there. I hate that IGA's name is suffering due to the circumstances, but in my opinion, he made a great game, and nothing is going to spoil my love and appreciation for it. It is what it is, and to me it had more potential, but it still ended up amazing.
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Post by dareka on Mar 3, 2020 18:13:58 GMT -6
One thing that tends to be overlooked, imho, is that the kickstarter stretch goals were decided before the graphics specifications had even been finalized.
This is a key point that we tend to miss. Remember those early screen mock-ups with plain-looking 3D graphics? Remember the first shaders revealed. Very few people liked them. When they came up with the improved graphics, then everyone was hyped; and so they went with graphics specifications that they weren't originally anticipating when they came up with the stretch goals.
This was ultimately what caused the project to suffer delays and drained all of their financial resources; and if you run out of money, you run out of labor, and you have to prioritize and cut features.
While definitely disappointing, this outcome is not at all surprising, since it happens all the time behind the scenes in the industry. You create an ambitions project outline, convince people that the game is going to be the be-all-end-all, and cram in the features; but then the reality of development sets in, and you're forced to make compromises, sometimes dramatically reducing the scope of the project. In these cases, the stakeholders, the people putting up the money, are company executives who are mostly concerned with the game's profitability or simply the long-term brand, and so they won't be terribly disappointed when features get cut.
The developers themselves are the people most disappointed, because they were excited by the features. Consumers, on the other hand, are not terribly disappointed because the game is announced without all of the content that had to be cut.
In a kickstarter, though, the people who put up the money for the project are the fans themselves. They paid cash precisely because they didn't want to compromise on features; so even if the game is wonderful, there's disappointment because there were high expectations and cash put up front.
I guess for me the moral of the story is this: when it comes to kickstarters, the smaller the project scope, the better. More funding does not necessarily equal a more complete package.
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Post by Cale on Mar 3, 2020 19:53:52 GMT -6
I remember MANY people being against 2.5D, instead imploring for a 2D "vania". What was their reasoning again? Iga's vision? I would think that a 2D game would have been MUCH easier to code and meet said stretch goals.
Edit: Has anyone actually got Mac version unofficially running? I tried a few different things and couldn't get the Demo or actual game to run on a Mac. Wineskin be damned.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Mar 3, 2020 20:02:48 GMT -6
One thing that tends to be overlooked, imho, is that the kickstarter stretch goals were decided before the graphics specifications had even been finalized. This is a key point that we tend to miss. Remember those early screen mock-ups with plain-looking 3D graphics? Remember the first shaders revealed. Very few people liked them. When they came up with the improved graphics, then everyone was hyped; and so they went with graphics specifications that they weren't originally anticipating when they came up with the stretch goals. This was ultimately what caused the project to suffer delays and drained all of their financial resources; and if you run out of money, you run out of labor, and you have to prioritize and cut features. While definitely disappointing, this outcome is not at all surprising, since it happens all the time behind the scenes in the industry. You create an ambitions project outline, convince people that the game is going to be the be-all-end-all, and cram in the features; but then the reality of development sets in, and you're forced to make compromises, sometimes dramatically reducing the scope of the project. In these cases, the stakeholders, the people putting up the money, are company executives who are mostly concerned with the game's profitability or simply the long-term brand, and so they won't be terribly disappointed when features get cut. The developers themselves are the people most disappointed, because they were excited by the features. Consumers, on the other hand, are not terribly disappointed because the game is announced without all of the content that had to be cut. In a kickstarter, though, the people who put up the money for the project are the fans themselves. They paid cash precisely because they didn't want to compromise on features; so even if the game is wonderful, there's disappointment because there were high expectations and cash put up front. I guess for me the moral of the story is this: when it comes to kickstarters, the smaller the project scope, the better. More funding does not necessarily equal a more complete package. Largely agreed here, though there's a few other things I want to point out. If it was due to a lack of funding and man-power, I honestly think we would have received this news better if they just said so rather than say it was because they locked themselves out of the feature by not preparing properly ahead of time. The former is unfortunate circumstances, the latter looks more like, and I hate to use this word, "incompetence." That they didn't do their due diligence in setting up the game to be able to have what they promised. Furthermore it seems silly they'd wait this long to cancel the feature if its money and resources that was holding them back, since they even put the feature in their launch trailer. About halfway through the development of this game it felt like communication started becoming a larger and larger weak point for them. Another factor in all this is their choice to make the stretch goals a staggered release as opposed to releasing the "full product." Now they're stuck functionally doing free labor for a game they've already sold. Of course stakeholders aren't going to like that. But the problem is the game was sold on the idea that these features would be in the game, sooner or later. Not just in the Kickstarter campaign, but also the Launch Trailer. |
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Post by exile on Mar 3, 2020 20:28:21 GMT -6
Lots of valid points here. Probably an inevitable cut to remove roguelike, and I never really anticipated that working, but they said it would, so who was I to argue? Communication did become really spotty, and as I mentioned before, it seemed like when we finally heard from them, it was to deliver disappointing news. Still, the game remains solid, and I agree with Mike, I admire the vision. It's easy to do in hindsight, but I'll always lament what might've been if we had the time and budget for the same vision, but manifested in proper 2-D as a fully-polished game. It's not that BS isn't sufficiently complete, but man, the last fourth of the game is still a downer to me. I liked where it was headed, but then, seemingly out of nowhere, it's "land of the boring, giant, randomly-placed plant monsters and ice cave and...game over." Felt underwhelming for an otherwise great game and diminishes my desire to return to it.
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Post by Yän on Mar 3, 2020 21:16:44 GMT -6
I would think that a 2D game would have been MUCH easier to code and meet said stretch goals. I would think otherwise. Usually, much of the game art like this isn't coded and the choice for 2.5D was an art-budget-choice, not code. The choice for 2.5D probably didn't impact the code effort all that much (except maybe for those cylindrical levels and some of the shaders and animation systems). Depending on your team and resources, it can absolutely be the case that HD hand drawn sprites and especially animations can take a lot more time and money than 3D models and are harder to reuse or reskin across the game (consider the visual gear changes on Miriam for instance which would be way too much work to do with drawn 2D animations while with 3D animation you can just stick a hat onto the head bone and you're pretty much done). Game modes like a Rogue like mode are mostly code tasks and independant from whether it's in 2.5D or 2D.
This is a code architecture problem rather than an art style one. Ultimately, it's really a planning problem, I guess. Hope they'll learn from these mistakes for the next title.
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Post by Darnias on Mar 4, 2020 0:13:22 GMT -6
I'm personally fine with this change as a player. As a KS backer, I do have issues with what was being sold as stretch goals being left out. I think what happened was this; The KS was doing so well at the time that they had to come up with new stretch goals. IntiCreates approved what was possible with what budget. Deep Silver was probably still involved at this point as the publisher, as Ben Judd confirmed on my podcast that they were the ones that agreed to fund the game if interest was proven. Kickstarter campaign ends. IntiCreates and IGA spit ways for mostly unknown reasons on the main game that involve development speed. Whatever happened with Deep Silver happened. 505 Games becomes the publisher and "has to" uphold all the previous expectations of the Kickstarter when it comes to funding and release timeframe. The rest I can go on about, but I'll mention a few in no particular order. Japan release is way after the rest of the world. Missing out on all the hype of the new game in the Japanese market. Staggered content is announced as "free DLC". IGA Boss and Swordwhip are no longer backer exclusive. Vita is canceled. Linux and Mac copies and support are abandoned causing major backlash here, yet work just fine unofficially. Communication regarding this issue was terrible. Switch performance was unacceptable, stunting the sucess of the game on arguably the most anticipated platform. Roguelike mode is canceled, but replaced with an interesting randomizer mode with shareable seeds. Speed run mode is a failure. A boss was cut that would have prevented a normal enemy dropping a progression shard. Blah blah, I could go on. My point is, if they had a crystal ball back when the Kickstarter was inventing stretch goals they thought they could accomplish with the time, money, and teams at that time, they never would have made such stretch goals. This game would have been better if given unlimited funding, time and talent. The vision was obviously there. I hate that IGA's name is suffering due to the circumstances, but in my opinion, he made a great game, and nothing is going to spoil my love and appreciation for it. It is what it is, and to me it had more potential, but it still ended up amazing. "A boss was cut that would have prevented a normal enemy dropping a progression shard." Could you give me its original source? And I presume this "normal enemy" and "progression shard" could be Deeseama and Aqua Stream, the cut boss is located in Forbidden Underground Waterway?
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Post by XombieMike on Mar 4, 2020 5:39:53 GMT -6
Darnias it's referred to in as the turtle boss in unused dialogue in the game files extracted by modders. It's the one in CotM.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Mar 4, 2020 5:55:30 GMT -6
Darnias it's referred to in as the turtle boss in unused dialogue in the game files extracted by modders. It's the one in CotM. The weirdest part to me is why they wouldn't just put one of those prisms you could break for the shard like the Shortcut and Silver Knight shards in a room somewhere. It'd have been significantly less of a Guide Dang It. |
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Post by EBBenjy on Mar 4, 2020 11:47:23 GMT -6
Are there any other modes they're anticipating on cutting? Can we know sooner rather than later?
It doesn't matter anyway. if Boss Rush mode is anything to go by, the extra modes will underwhelm horribly with no prospect of being amended.
Why do they keep wasting resources on the lost-cause that is the Switch version, when they could instead be spending time making Boss Rush any good, and adding back in the missing content?
Remember when Sonic Mania changed the Stardust Speedway Act 2 boss into something entirely brand new in a patch? It doesn't matter if the game is already out without Focalor as a boss, or without the Casino area that was planned - you can patch the existing game and fix it if you want. Seriously. We won't mind.
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Post by exile on Mar 4, 2020 14:18:42 GMT -6
Are there any other modes they're anticipating on cutting? Can we know sooner rather than later? It doesn't matter anyway. if Boss Rush mode is anything to go by, the extra modes will underwhelm horribly with no prospect of being amended. Why do they keep wasting resources on the lost-cause that is the Switch version, when they could instead be spending time making Boss Rush any good, and adding back in the missing content? Remember when Sonic Mania changed the Stardust Speedway Act 2 boss into something entirely brand new in a patch? It doesn't matter if the game is already out without Focalor as a boss, or without the Casino area that was planned - you can patch the existing game and fix it if you want. Seriously. We won't mind. Yes, I selfishly wish they'd have forgone the Switch version or at least delayed it enough to work on it gradually instead of shifting the entire trajectory and focus of the release schedule. To have a new IP be so hindered by having to monopolize the time and efforts of a fledgling studio to support one platform was an unfortunate blow to the goodwill generated by this project. I assure you, if there's a BS2, they won't go that route again. |
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Post by dareka on Mar 4, 2020 17:54:21 GMT -6
I would think that a 2D game would have been MUCH easier to code and meet said stretch goals. I would think otherwise. Usually, much of the game art like this isn't coded and the choice for 2.5D was an art-budget-choice, not code. The choice for 2.5D probably didn't impact the code effort all that much (except maybe for those cylindrical levels and some of the shaders and animation systems). Depending on your team and resources, it can absolutely be the case that HD hand drawn sprites and especially animations can take a lot more time and money than 3D models and are harder to reuse or reskin across the game (consider the visual gear changes on Miriam for instance which would be way too much work to do with drawn 2D animations while with 3D animation you can just stick a hat onto the head bone and you're pretty much done). Game modes like a Rogue like mode are mostly code tasks and independant from whether it's in 2.5D or 2D.
This is a code architecture problem rather than an art style one. Ultimately, it's really a planning problem, I guess. Hope they'll learn from these mistakes for the next title.
This is true. If I were to add a bit more: A 2D game using traditional sprite logic might be easier from a programming perspective, especially since IGA's done tons of these before. However, as Yän rightly points out, if we were talking about high-res 2D graphics, the cost of developing the assets would skyrocket. You can also say goodbye to features such as customizing Miriam's appearance: you'd have to draw and animate every single possible combination of visible gear, which is not feasible no matter how big your budget is. The point is that making the game 2.5D was realistically the best option for them. Now, making the game 2.5D per se does not necessarily make the game more difficult to adapt to a rogue-like random dungeon generator: 2D and 2.5D, it all depends on how your engine was built. This is the official expalanation for why it was dropped: One of the promised stretch goals for the game was Roguelike. Unfortunately, the code that was created early in the game’s development is not currently compatible with this type of gameplay (especially a procedurally generated castle). Due to this, we regret to announce that we will not be developing Roguelike as part of the project's planned stretch goals. Methinks ... and this is purely speculation on my part ... that the problem lies in how the game loads assets into memory. And I would dare to speculate that, specifically, it's not that they couldn't make the mode work per se... but that they realized they wouldn't be able to get it to work on Switch. A random dungeon loads assets randomly. How are they attempting to address the issues on the Switch version? That's right: by tweaking the assets to reduce their memory footprint. Can't easily do that when the assets are combined randomly, can you? You'd end up with a game mode were you couldn't guarantee parity between versions. Again, this is pure conjecture on my part, but it solves one question: why would they wait until this point to cancel the rogue-like mode? Well, probably because they didn't realize it would never run on Switch until they started digging into the effects of the game's code on the Switch version. That's my best guess; though, obviously, if the code was really unsuitable to rogue-like random dungeon generation, it might have been prohibitively difficult to implement any version. Guess we'll find out if someone successfully manages to mod it into the PC version without making the game crash more often. |
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Post by rav4ishing on Mar 5, 2020 0:27:07 GMT -6
If having a procedurally generated map would have ended up with a game like Chasm; I will pass. They should not waste their time if they cannot do better than Chasm and yet still maintain the joy of IGA-vania type games. I wouldn't be surprised if they introduced this as a stretch goal because it was the "flavor of the week" with the recent metroidvania games release, i.e., Dead Cells. The devil is always in the details.
The randomizer will probably work out well, despite our initial reserves. The exploration decisions I make depends hugely on where items are located. It'll introduce just enough nuance to extend the life of the game.
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Post by gradius on Mar 5, 2020 3:47:45 GMT -6
Seems legit. The theory/speculation of Mr. VampireHunterD, i mean. Consoles are what drags and keeps down pc gaming, in our era. Multi-platform videogames losing focus, watered/tweaked/dumbened down to fit cr_p console capabilities or rather, limitations... Garbage ports and whatnot... Had they centered around PC, nothing of this would have ever happened. And hey, it's not like Switch became the kill-off switch of the entire project/fun, no! Or that PC version is the best overall and the most stable!!!
It's not Iga's fault after all. The "peasantry" is the arch-nemesis of gaming, quality, performance, standards. After the golden era of PC gaming, we old-timers know perfectly well, why the hell THEY DON'T MAKE THEM LIKE THEY USED TO!
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Post by Darnias on Mar 5, 2020 5:47:26 GMT -6
Darnias it's referred to in as the turtle boss in unused dialogue in the game files extracted by modders. It's the one in CotM. As I expected the cut boss was Focalor. Thanks for your information.
I hope RotN staff can add Focalor back as one of the compensation for cancel Roguelike mode: after all, adjust a boss (or plus a normal enmey and a room etc) shoule be much much easier than adjust a "Roguelike mode"...
Or better yet: restore the stuff those mentioned in this post (https://www.reddit.com/r/Bloodstained/comments/cai2ap/some_unused_stuff_from_ingame_resources/) as much as you can. |
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Post by Yän on Mar 5, 2020 12:58:12 GMT -6
dareka You make some very good points. For true random rooms etc, you could for instance not prebake the lighting and getting real time lit scenes of this detail to work on the Switch is just not feasable. So in that sense, if this was their reason (though I think it's also heavily related to their code- and project architecture), the 2.5D thing does make a difference regarding performance. I still think that if the official reason is anything to go by, the real reason is that they just didn't set up any of their systems for procedural levels and / or game systems that go along with the rogue like game design framework.
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Post by EbonAnimus on Mar 5, 2020 17:09:17 GMT -6
roguelike was made for seeing castles, no miriam has gone before... the quitessence of this campain...
randomizer Mode is made to see a castle that was seen a thousand times by every existing miriam before...but hey, the sequence of the areas you traveling is different -.-
this really sucks..
this is like i was promised a private island but only got sand in my shoes..
the game is long dead, but the stretchgoals are hoped to be cool enough to give this a try again later, but sadly we have an update every few months and its always diappointing or a slap in the face of everyone like this time-.-
in addition we have to wait for years until gamecopys arrival, instead of having it and wait for some auto-updates thanks to some gogs..
so i have to look again and again for some news and new codes for my backer exclusive and unexclusive features, sadly understanding that its all for nothing because everything is completely free for everyone outside of this campain.
dont know how many stretchgoals are removed or replaced for something worse in the future but i´m gonna stop visiting the websites and take it as a loss lying in the past.
thx for all the years of entertaining me in this forum while waiting for the game guys!
i owe you all and wish you happy gaming in the future!
Ebon
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Post by stoltzy92 on Mar 5, 2020 19:39:54 GMT -6
I didn't buy it for the Roguelike mode so that isn't a major loss in my mind. Still feeling bad that it's being cut and I can see why people are ticked. The Randomizer mode though, even if it's not much, mitigates it a bit for me. Classic Mode I am very much hoping to stay in. Boss Revenge Mode I didn't place my expectations too high on so even if it's a short side mode, as long as it functions properly and is fun to play I can live with it. Backer-Rewards not being exclusive anymore I already gave my thoughts on (To summarize, it doesn't bother me). One thing I will agree on is how frustrating that the features that ARE getting made end up having their content release schedule screwed to hell and back due to the total butch job the switch port was. I am still gonna support this game series and Igarashi as I enjoyed the ever-loving hell out of the base game, but it will come with the caveat that it's had some serious rough patches, cut content that was promised, and a fair amount of disappointed backers.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Mar 6, 2020 0:20:29 GMT -6
You can also say goodbye to features such as customizing Miriam's appearance: you'd have to draw and animate every single possible combination of visible gear, which is not feasible no matter how big your budget is. Nitpick, but as far as I'm aware you can do this without having to draw every combination separately by using layers. It's typically how 2D games add customization. It's still much harder/more expensive than 3D though because you still have to draw every animation frame for each customizable item as opposed to sticking it onto the model. Also a nitpick, but Dead Cells came out over three years after the stretch goal was made. Chasm just shortly before that. I think the only popular roguevania at the time was Rogue Legacy, which was a lot simpler in design. |
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