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Post by hyugakojiro on Mar 1, 2019 20:37:13 GMT -6
So after taking a closer look at the first two trailers of the update (was initially too impressed with the Bloodless trailer to really pay close attention to the other two) I do have some additional feedback to share regarding the new hair movement physics.
When Miriam runs, her hair moves back and forth too fast and when she stops moving it bounces back and forth too much instead of settling down gracefully. The hair mechanics remind me of the exaggerated breast mechanics of DOA or Mai Shiranui in KOF.
Would appreciate it if you could take another look at those. Can't go wrong with looking to Nier Automata for good reference material on hair movement.
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Post by Astaroth on Mar 2, 2019 9:20:08 GMT -6
depends, shortish hair like that bounces pretty quick, plus hair and cloth physics are like the last 2 great hurdles of physics engines (water used to be the 3rd but now theres algorithms that can fake it well enough)
also nier had square enix backing it, and squeenix tech is like 2-3 generations ahead of everybody else because they dump millions into their engine tech
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Post by Galamoth on Mar 2, 2019 9:23:43 GMT -6
I'm sure the hair movement wouldn't look too fast if you're falling down an incredible height, or if the area is "windy".
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Post by Pure Miriam on Mar 2, 2019 9:30:34 GMT -6
i completely respect people's opinions, but I'm amazed that so many people really cares about hair movement on a 2.5D game.
I was sold back at 2016 Demo. If the game was still like that, that would be more than enough for me already.
I guess i have low standards?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 10:15:37 GMT -6
i completely respect people's opinions, but I'm amazed that so many people really cares about hair movement on a 2.5D game. I was sold back at 2016 Demo. If the game was still like that, that would be more than enough for me already. I guess i have low standards? No, you're not the only one. In the update, when IGA said "something seems to be moving that wasn't moving before..." I just assumed he was talking about the sky. I didn't realize the hair bounce was new until Question spelled it out. Still, I'm pretty excited about the news nonetheless. It's far too easy for 3D to look stiff, so the extra work is appreciated.
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Enkeria
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Post by Enkeria on Mar 2, 2019 10:24:50 GMT -6
i completely respect people's opinions, but I'm amazed that so many people really cares about hair movement on a 2.5D game. I was sold back at 2016 Demo. If the game was still like that, that would be more than enough for me already. I guess i have low standards? Same here. There are important things, like replay value. And then there are other things.. Like hair. It has nothing to do with standards. I just think we want the game to live long, and do not care about minor details because we see beyond those.
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Post by Aztec on Mar 2, 2019 12:59:11 GMT -6
i completely respect people's opinions, but I'm amazed that so many people really cares about hair movement on a 2.5D game. I was sold back at 2016 Demo. If the game was still like that, that would be more than enough for me already. I guess i have low standards? You don’t have low standards, if anything from your very detailed posts analyzing every single detail tells me the contrary. It’s just that you, just like me, know where and when you should focus your attention to. The “helmet hair” I honestly never thought about but now that it moves I’m glad that it does because it does look better, but its not like it looked bad before but I’d did for some. I’d rather have them focus their time in other parts but now that they did change it I’m okay with it. But this nitpicking about the hair physics I think is a tad much.
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Post by mourningxsun on Mar 2, 2019 13:04:34 GMT -6
i completely respect people's opinions, but I'm amazed that so many people really cares about hair movement on a 2.5D game. I was sold back at 2016 Demo. If the game was still like that, that would be more than enough for me already. I guess i have low standards? Same here. There are important things, like replay value. And then there are other things.. Like hair. It has nothing to do with standards. I just think we want the game to live long, and do not care about minor details because we see beyond those. But, the reason why SotN is so immortalized *is* because of those minor details. It wouldn't be half as memorable if Alucard's sprite wasn't as detailed and smooth to play as it ended up being. Miriam is a character that is going to be plopped into the middle of your screen for a few dozen hours. She damn well better not have anything stand out as lazy or awkward, and hair movement is a big part of that.
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hyugakojiro
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Post by hyugakojiro on Mar 2, 2019 18:04:24 GMT -6
depends, shortish hair like that bounces pretty quick, plus hair and cloth physics are like the last 2 great hurdles of physics engines (water used to be the 3rd but now theres algorithms that can fake it well enough)
also nier had square enix backing it, and squeenix tech is like 2-3 generations ahead of everybody else because they dump millions into their engine tech
All good points which is why I'm surprised they actually decided to add special hair mechanics. Personally I had no issues with how Miriam moved in the Launch trailer (hair included) and wouldn't expect Soul Calibur type graphical fidelity/mechanics on character models in Bloodstained. Having said that kudos to the team for taking on this challenge.
What I'm after isn't necessarily a hyper realistic hair engine but rather a happy medium between no movement at all and the current Jello style mechanics. As long it doesn't move too unnaturally I'll be a happy camper. Like mourningxsun said we'll be looking at Miriam moving around the screen for a long time to come and the last thing we need are movements that break your immersion with the gameplay.
I agree with Galamoth that the hair movement during the running animation would look appropriate if Miriam was traveling through a windy area, just not while traveling through a normal environment. Also when Miriam stops moving the hair bounces back and forth quite a few times before it stops moving which to me breaks your immersion even more than the running animation.
See trailer below at the 3-5 second mark and again at the end of the trailer when she finishes her pose:
Again kudos to the team for working to make the game better in every way, to include hair movements, but I think with a few adjustment they can create something that is better than both what we currently have and had before.
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Post by dareka on Mar 3, 2019 0:46:46 GMT -6
hyugakojiroIf they're just done with the implementation, more likely than not they're still tweaking it. Dunno how much can be done with their implementation, but I would think they have some parameters they can use to tone it down a notch or two.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Mar 3, 2019 4:17:09 GMT -6
@autumn Yes, it is good because it makes Miriam looks more realistic. Enkeria Well, i think it depends on perspective, yes. I mean, the game looks great to me and i' more interested on stuff to kill, stuff to find, stuff to explore and such. Aztec The focus is a good one. Probably, i focus on other things. mourningxsun I agree with you, to an extent.
Something almost no one commented yet, and i feel it is very important, is this: Being able to get Bloodstained in front of millions of Nintendo fans was a great opportunity for the game. While this is a Kickstarter project, it is also a retail product and we need to take advantage of any opportunity we can to ensure its success. If the game does well enough, the goal is to make Bloodstained into an ongoing series of games.I really hope Bloodstained turns into a franchise. IGA has his own company (ArtPlay) to do other games, is helping on other games (such as Revolve8) and Bloodstained could be a "flagship" for his career. And i'm thirsty for Igavanias. I do like Metroidvanias, played a lot of them and this is a style of game i can't get tired of, but IGAVANIAS (Metroidvanias made by IGA, Castlevania-like games) is something i'm even more thristy for. I really want Bloodstained to turn into a sucessful franchise, and you know? I was thinking about that these days. If Bloodstained ended up a great sucess, it could turn into a Meta series (like Shin Megami Tensei). A main storyline (Ritual of the Night ownards), at least one spin-off storyline (Curse of the Moon ownards) and maybe something else. It would be fun.
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Post by hyugakojiro on Mar 3, 2019 9:14:16 GMT -6
hyugakojiro If they're just done with the implementation, more likely than not they're still tweaking it. Dunno how much can be done with their implementation, but I would think they have some parameters they can use to tone it down a notch or two. That thought crossed my mind as well but I don't think it hurts to err on the side of caution. If all the backer feedback about the new feature is resoundingly positive then it's possible the development team would call it a success and move on to the next item on the list of things to do. I'm sure there's no shortage of things needing to be improved, tweaked, etc.
Pure Miriam What you're describing sounds like the "Big Picture" concept that extends beyond delivering on the Kickstarter goal of creating a single game. I think many backers, probably most people on this board, understand this concept and share your feelings, I certainly do, but there are people who do not as evidenced by some of the comments on the Kickstarter board regarding not being first in line to see the new trailers, etc.
I think Angel and Question are doing the best job they can in explaining the Big Picture to these folks but not everyone will be able to see the light, at least not until they're personally benefiting from the team's efforts to focus on the big picture (ie not until they get to play Bloodstained 2).
Based on what we've seen so far though I wouldn't worry about this as 505 seems to have an excellent grip on marketing and market dynamics based their decision to closely work with Nintendo on aggressively marketing the game for the Switch. Having said that though if you think they could be doing something better by all means do speak up.
Personally, I think this game will have an excellent commercial release based on the inherent quality behind the concept, the combined and unrelenting efforts of everyone on the team, and the fact that this game checks virtually every block that people in the Switch demographic are looking for.
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Post by Enkeria on Mar 3, 2019 10:10:26 GMT -6
hair movement is a big part of that. Always saw the hair as part of the shard curse. So really, never bothered about it. I know Alucards hair flow when he was moving around all over the place. I agree the details make an game interesting. But even if he was bald, the game itself would still be nice.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Mar 3, 2019 11:10:37 GMT -6
hyugakojiro I didn't said they aren' doing a good job, of course. I think they are. I just hope everything goes well enough for a franchise to be born.
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Post by hyugakojiro on Mar 3, 2019 17:35:15 GMT -6
hyugakojiro I didn't said they aren' doing a good job, of course. I think they are. I just hope everything goes well enough for a franchise to be born. I'm with you on what you said about turning Bloodstained into a franchise for sure. My point wasn't that you're being overly critical of the Bloodstained team, rather my point is that if you look at all the information out there, not just the negativity on Kickstarter, you'll see the early signs of great things to come. Purify recently posted a gamefaqs poll citing very strong interest in the game, there's the early Amazon sales numbers, the game is looking better and better every single day, 505 Games are making the right choices marketing wise, IGA is taking his time to make sure we get the best game possible, Way Forward on board, etc.
I understand that people's biggest fear is that this game will end up like Might No.9 but the information in front of us simply doesn't support this.
Of course no one can predict the future and anything is possible but the odds are certainly in our favor. Worst case scenario in my book would be that this is more like the Castlevania Lament of Innocence on PS2, which had poor sales but was a great game in its own right. But looking at all the information as a whole I just don't see things playing out that way.
All we can do for now though is:
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gunlord500
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Post by gunlord500 on Mar 3, 2019 18:11:19 GMT -6
hyugakojiro I didn't said they aren' doing a good job, of course. I think they are. I just hope everything goes well enough for a franchise to be born. I'm with you on what you said about turning Bloodstained into a franchise for sure. My point wasn't that you're being overly critical of the Bloodstained team, rather my point is that if you look at all the information out there, not just the negativity on Kickstarter, you'll see the early signs of great things to come. Purify recently posted a gamefaqs poll citing very strong interest in the game, there's the early Amazon sales numbers, the game is looking better and better every single day, 505 Games are making the right choices marketing wise, IGA is taking his time to make sure we get the best game possible, Way Forward on board, etc.
I understand that people's biggest fear is that this game will end up like Might No.9 but the information in front of us doesn't support this.
Yeah. The old saying is "never count your chickens before they're hatched," but at this point something would have to go seriously awry for the game to not end up good. I admit I was worried for a little bit, especially with the cancellation of the Mac and Linux versions, but in the latest updates the game looks really, really good, not just compared to old builds but on its own, IMO. And with Wayforward hunting bugs (and more), I don't think we'll have to worry about Bloodstained bricking Switches the way MN9 bricked Wii Us XD XD XD
That said, perhaps a more reasonable worry would be this game turning out like Yooka-Laylee rather than Mighty No. 9. That game wasn't quite as bad as MN9--in fact, it wasn't that bad on its own. It didn't have any huge spurts of drama like MN9 did with the ridiculous "Masterclass" trailer, the terrible cartoon, the Red Ash kickstarter, and so on. The worst it had was in dropping one of its cameos when the person said some offensive stuff. The game itself was a serviceable 3D platform. But that's the thing, it was just "serviceable"--not great, or even very good. It had been billed as the return of the classic Banjo and Kazooie games, but even though it wasn't terrible, it couldn't match up to the quality of its forebears, which made it a failure in many people's eyes.
Could the same happen to Bloodstained? Possibly. SotN left some very big shoes to fill, and its aesthetics were a big part of that. I've seen a handful of folks complaining about even the updated visuals, saying that 2D pixel sprites are still better (and another game, Blasphemous, which I also backed, has achieved SotN-quality sprites). Still, if the castle is as big as it promises to be--other people have done the math, but even *low* estimates of the castle size are bigger than SotN's castle easily--Bloodstained just might have a chance of living up to its forebear. This chance would be even more likely if cool abilities like the "turn into light to navigate" and "Invert anywhere, not just head into an inverted castle" work as well as they promise.
That said, on that subject, one reason folks don't like the visuals, I've noticed, is that they seem "too anime." I can understand that--a lot of us oldschool Castlevania fans liked the gothic feel of the series, while anime artwork just felt much more generic (this is one reason folks disliked the portraits from Portrait of Ruin and Dawn of Sorrow after Kojima-sama left ;-; ). However, while Bloodstained is a spiritual successor to Castlevania, keep in mind that IGA didn't want to do just castlevania--as an independent artist now, he finally had a chance to make something that was entirely his own and suited to his own tastes. And in this case, I suppose he wanted to do a more anime setting rather than a specifically gothic one. And in that sense, Bloodstained might do very well. I can't think of many other "Anime-vanias"...the only ones that come to mind are some Touhou games along with the upcoming Lodoss retro game, but those are all 2d sprites rather than 3d, and 3d allows IGA to do some interesting things (character customization, inverting the castle as you play, and the light ability would be very difficult to pull off pixel-by-pixel). So this may well turn out to be the best anime-vania we've yet seen in 3D
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Mar 3, 2019 18:40:08 GMT -6
Eh, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Bloodstained is much "more anime" than OoE, Aria or even SotN. The more likely comparison in those guys' minds (what they'd rather see) is the art style of the non-Iga Castlevania games. I had an initial distaste for the art style of DoS and PoR myself, but this game's is pretty far removed from that, isn't it?
A number of the older fans might want the gruff, barbarian-ish + monster movie vibe with a slightly goofy/campy edge, that's old classicvania. It's also something quite difficult to do well in modern times, I think, for large companies and even small indies. The tough guy/muscle man aesthetic, setting, monsters being in pop culture - all that would be a pretty rough nostalgia sell now. If Konami ever does anything at all again, at most it will be somewhat of a compromise with those themes + moving forward into something modern/serious, much like what Lords of Shadow was, which is yet another example of thing that some fans want rather than an "anime" look or something more Japanese flavored than it needs to be.
The true misfortune of all this is that Iga is delivering to Igavania fans what they've wanted all this time, and to a fairly large section of classicvania fans what they'd been searching for as well, but there remains a diehard contingent of guys as I've mentioned above that may never be satiated and that sucks. Anyone that's been in the CV fandom long enough surely knows what I mean. I...guess this is still on topic? lol.
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gunlord500
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Post by gunlord500 on Mar 3, 2019 18:44:45 GMT -6
Eh, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Bloodstained is much "more anime" than OoE, Aria or even SotN. The more likely comparison in those guys' minds (what they'd rather see) is the art style of the non-Iga Castlevania games. I had an initial distaste for the art style of DoS and PoR myself, but this game's is pretty far removed from that, isn't it? A number of the older fans might want the gruff, barbarian-ish + monster movie vibe with a slightly goofy/campy edge, that's old classicvania. It's also something quite difficult to do well in modern times, I think, for large companies and even small indies. The tough guy/muscle man aesthetic, setting, monsters being in pop culture - all that would be a pretty rough nostalgia sell now. If Konami ever does anything at all again, at most it will be somewhat of a compromise with those themes + moving forward into something modern/serious, much like what Lords of Shadow was, which is yet another example of thing that some fans want rather than an "anime" look or something more Japanese flavored than it needs to be. The true misfortune of all this is that Iga is delivering to Igavania fans what they've wanted all this time, and to a fairly large section of classicvania fans what they'd been searching for as well, but there remains a diehard contingent of guys as I've mentioned above that may never be satiated and that sucks. Anyone that's been in the CV fandom long enough surely knows what I mean. I...guess this is still on topic? lol. True, though I think movie-monster bosses could very well be doable in this day and age. I love the classic Hammer movie monsters as much as everybody, but I think they could do a good job in today's era (the cusp of the 2020s) with classic monsters from thee 80s and 90s, which are 30-40 years old now just as the Hammer monsters were by the time of the first Castlevania. A boss based off of Pinhead from Hellraiser, for instance. But in any case, you are right, Ayame Kojima was already more "anime," comparatively, and most of the really oldschool fans might be looking for the old muscleman Simon/Trevor from CV1-3, which wouldn't be as marketable today. Everyone loves Miriam for...predictable reasons. ;3
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Post by Enkeria on Mar 4, 2019 1:41:38 GMT -6
About Bloodstained becoming an franchise if doing well is, to me at least, old news. I read that when Angel came to Discord. Ofc it's always "we hope" scenario.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Mar 4, 2019 1:59:39 GMT -6
It is really a matter of opinion, but nowadays things are switching a bit. I'm not going to get into this topic because it may get off-topic with the thread, but i personally love anime aesthetic, as a diehard/otaku anime fan myself, so...I feel at home with Bloodstained.
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