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Post by Overlord on Jun 17, 2018 3:28:54 GMT -6
To me, saying "The game has not been delayed" when it has been delayed is a worse sign than the delay itself.
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Post by Yän on Jun 17, 2018 3:38:46 GMT -6
I agree. I'm the first to defend the game from absurd statements like "We've already had three delays, it will release in 2024", and I never considered the shift from 2017 to 2018 a real delay because it was announced very quickly and because of the placeholder thing, but the will to make the game come out this year has been vehemently stated multiple times both in formal and informal contexts, so if the game were to come out next year it would be a delay without a shadow lf a doubt. This wouldn't even be a problem, I'm willing to wait all the time it takes, but it would certainly be a delay and not treating it as such using technicalities like "Yeah, but we said HOPE" would be a very unwise move IMO and it would make quite a bit of people rightfully pissed, because then it's not about the delay itself anymore but about the transparency of communication, and that has always been the pride of this project and this community. So I encourage the team to take their time and proceed how they see fit. If that mindset is accompanied by clear, honest communication, then it's all right. Keep up the good work everyone  This sums up exactly how I feel about this. I don't even have that much of a problem with it personally but I think that pointing at such technicalities will only make them look like they're trying to weasel out of their responsibilities. This would be bad for the community, bad for the reputation of the Bloodstained-brand and bad for the future of the franchise. I'm trying to put this out as a word of warning because I want this franchise to thrive!
Angel-Corlux I think that you've mostly done GREAT work so far and I really appreciate what you're doing for the franchise and the community. Please keep it that way and be careful with stuff like this as it really only looks like attempts at blame-shifting. Thank you and keep it up |
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 17, 2018 13:13:31 GMT -6
They have never once as far as I can remember said "The game will release in 2018." They have always used more ambiguous dialogue. "We're hoping to release", "That's our aim", "We seem to be on track to" but never "It will." The first half of '18 was an expectation sent out in an update that specifically focused on announcing a time frame. Not tucked away in a huge update that focused on other things. Not something said on a forum only 2k backers registered on, but a KS update. I find it refreshing that people are so willing to overlook delays and come to the defense of my favorite creator and his team. I kind of envy the sentiment. The only reason I think it's important for a reality check is that people like Yan who have been part of the community from the beginning is a representative of those backers who will think like he does. I think I can safely assume that Yan isn't the only backer out there that think's framing a delay as something other than a delay is just blowing smoke up people's holes. Your link links back to your own post. But regardless: "estimate for the game's release" is literally the same thing as the other points I mention. "We aim to", "We're hoping to", "We're on track to" It's an estimate. A rough calculation. By its very definition it is not definite. An estimated release is by no means a promised one. Anyone who interpreted that as the game WILL release in the first half of 2018 were, frankly, wrong. I agree with the points that it won't look great if they act like there was never anything like a delay. But it's something I doubt they'd do anyway. After all, when there for sure was no delay (2017), Iga fell on his sword and directly apologized for it as though it were one. |
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Post by giwagiwa on Jun 17, 2018 22:24:39 GMT -6
This game will get delayed to 2020. This game will get delayed to 2033.
(If you can make random statements based purely in speculation, so can I.)
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 18, 2018 3:26:12 GMT -6
This game will get delayed to 2020. This game will get delayed to 2033.
(If you can make random statements based purely in speculation, so can I.)
The game will release in the first quarter of 2018, due to time travel shenanigans. Unfortunately, such shenanigans also happen to ensure that a parallel timeline gets our copy of the game and we never do. |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 19, 2018 9:39:30 GMT -6
Okay, well here's another possibility to consider and what I myself make out of all this. I don't have any extra information than the rest of you, but this will just be another way to look at it.
Some people consider pushing "aiming for a window" that's a year or half-year in size a release date delay, and some people say no, there has been no concrete release statement yet so it's not a delay. Technically is, technically is not - whatever the case, 505 Games stating clearly that they are "delaying the game" only does any favor to those that would say "ah ha, I thought so". It doesn't have much value past that. There aren't any official outlets or retailers etc to update on the release date of the game etc, since that hasn't been given to them, but it is information for us as backers and supporters.
On the other end, a "delay" statement means headlines, and a fuss over us not meeting Iga's estimated "hope for H1 2018" (there was never a statement of quarter) becomes a derided "BLOODSTAINED DELAYED AGAIN, Mn9 Repeats Itself, Will People Stop Falling for Vaporware Scams?!"
If anyone doesn't remember, freaking damn shoutbox screenshots have been made into articles before. That's why still that staggered content is believed to already be a thing in this game, when in reality we have no real idea that it is. No, we were not able to meet IGA's aim for H1 2018 or possibly not even 2018, but is that a hill worth dying on? I really don't think so, and I don't think biting the hand that feeds us communication about everything is the way to go, either. This is more of a symptom of direct communication with 505 than a lack of it, and pushing back on an issue like this too far can just cause them to decide not to share as much with us in the future.
If they do need to say this, i.e. if the game can't release in 2018, it will need to be at a place in time where that information has the best possible timing and accuracy. Not a "we are delaying the game", but the actual time that the game will be released. Nailing down and timing that critical information is pretty tough and important though, and I don't expect or even want a "well, we're delaying it" in the meantime. This does partially come from me as someone that wants the game to do critically better per se than delivering what I myself want to know. It's not worth it to me for the pointless ruckus it would cause, over a debatable huge release window having changed or not.
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jun 19, 2018 10:26:03 GMT -6
My take is that, while the word "delay" may make people unhappy and give fuel to some of the anti-crowdfunding people that like to spread negativity at any chance, the far worse situation is where the perception that the publisher or even Iga himself is being dishonest by claiming no delay where one clearly exists. Like it or not, "2018" has been officially stated as the timeframe in which the game is supposed be released. Claims that this isn't technically a release date is weasel wording, and will be seen as such if the game gets pushed to 2019 and that tactic is pursued. In the wake of Inti Create's release debacle, that is something that should be avoided at all costs.
In my opinion, the best approach - assuming that it does become necessary to push back the release - is to be up front both about the fact of the delay and the reasoning behind it. Be clear, be honest, and be proactive. If feedback from the beta dictates that more time is needed to make changes in response, tell us. If Iga feels that more polish is needed for the game to meet his standards, tell us. If the main game is complete, but some of the extra modes need a bit of time to nail down, tell us. But don't try to backpedal and say that 2018 was never the plan and that this isn't a real delay. That will just make people call 505 and Iga liars, and the perception of dishonesty is the absolute worst atmosphere that the game could release to.
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jun 19, 2018 10:44:59 GMT -6
I am absolutely with Scars Unseen on this one. Making the game come out in 2019 and treating it like it's not a delay is a far worse scenario than just giving those who want to spread negativity a bit of material to write clickbait articles on. They will do it anyway. What they can't do is thrash the honesty and transparency of communication which, until now, has been the crown jewel of the Bloodstained project. That can't be tarnished, and it's way better not to give anyone any reason to try and do just that. Facebook, KS Comments and pretty much every official channel of communication for Bloodstained were crystal clear on this fact: the game is aimed for a 2018 release. That has been stated with so much confidence (and often in reponse to those "2032 release another MN9 lawl" smart@sses) that it's impossible to miss this release window, no matter how big, and not treating it as a delay. We can be very indulgent with the placeholder 2017 date and the reasons are very clear to everyone, but not in this case. If the game is pushed back, we need to know it, with the utmost clarity. One or two or three delays are not the end of the world. Being elusive, deflecting and ignoring issues, on the other hand, can leave a very, very bitter taste even in the mouth of the most convinced supporter. I know I would absolutely be disappointed by such an attitude, even if my admiration and respect for the team and IGA are as sincere and high as they can be. That said, I'm convinced that the team will deal with the release window thing with the transparency and impeccable honesty they have always shown us, so I'm not worried in the slightest. But hypothetically speaking yeah, that is absolutely the scenario to avoid at all costs. |
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Post by Angel-Corlux on Jun 19, 2018 12:19:35 GMT -6
Hey everyone, to clear up some confusion and allay some concerns, if we ever need to announce a delay (launching after end of 2018) the reality would be twofold:
- We planned/wanted to launch the game in 2018 but that's changed to a new date
- We never announced a release date
Basically, you can have a delay while also never having announced an official release date. What I was trying to communicate with my earlier comments was that the delay would be more of an internal one since we never came out and said something like "launching March 10 2018!" or something. Iga said a long time ago that we would be hoping / aiming for first half of 2018, and that's the only reason we (505 Games) came out and clarified the date as a generic "we're planning for a 2018 release" until we announce a specific hard date. Usually the process for announcing a release date is as follows:
- No date set
- Release window announced (not always necessary)
- Exact release date announced
- Launch
Right now we're officially and technically at the first stage of "No date set", unfortunately due to the hybrid/kickstarter nature of this game, we have previous statements and "hopes and wishes" stated by the team to contend with. That's why 2018 is/was mentioned, but as a placeholder until we reach stage 2: "Release window announced".
Regardless, if when we announce the release date, it's not in 2018, then we would not message anything based on technical explanations, since we've been hoping thus far to launch in 2018.
This is as honest and straightforward as I can be regarding this, hopefully that clears things up for everyone.
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Post by XombieMike on Jun 19, 2018 13:59:29 GMT -6
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Post by roguedragon05 on Jun 19, 2018 16:54:10 GMT -6
Well it maybe demanding too much but in a couple weeks there will be less than 6 months in 2018. I would think that they would know if there is any possibility about releasing the game this year. I just don't want to wait till this fall or winter before we get confirmation that it won't be released this year. I'm fairly sure that it was common knowledge that most fans (regardless if they should have assumed such or not) were expecting a release date for the game at E3 this year would it have killed anyone to clarify that there wouldn't be any such announcement?
Assuming the game will be released in 2019 many won't be terribly upset I like many others answered in the survey that we want the game done right before we want the game done soon, But we will be entering that extended grace period where alot of people will get worried or angry, and as far as getting worried goes I would say they would be justified by there concerns, this isn't a situation where no news is good news in my opinion. Getting everything done right is all well and good but I think at the very least we should know officially by the end of summer if we can expect the game out this year or not. And by winter (if it comes to it) knowing what part of 2019 would be apprciated.
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Post by Time 4 Tea on Jun 19, 2018 17:49:02 GMT -6
I would rather have delays and a reasonably polished game than a rushed buggy one. The last thing I want to see is another Bethesda or Assassin's Creed Unity type launch.
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Post by Angel-Corlux on Jun 19, 2018 18:32:11 GMT -6
I lol'd
And yeah we are planning on announcing at least the release window in the next few months, much is pending on this demo and a few other things as well. We're not going to wait until November 25th or something to be like "2019!". |
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 20, 2018 0:26:42 GMT -6
Perhaps it's my nature to always keep expectations low to blame for the fact that I always interpreted their exact words rather than actually expecting a 2018 release. I only ever saw it as how they described it: what they hoped/were aiming for, not what was actually going to happen.
They've avoided detailing anything concrete because you can never really plan ahead for what kind of bad things can happen in development that actually would delay the game. If they announce a release date before the game is finished, and then something happens that takes longer than they expect, then that's just it. It's incredibly irresponsible to announce a release date that early.
But this is a Kickstarter. They have an audience watching their every move since Day 1. There's no way they could get this far, over 3 years in, without any word about some kind of release period. So they tell us what they're hoping for, to tide us over. But it was far too early in development to set in stone a release date or even window, and to some extent it still is (hence why they're still not quite yet ready to do so!) Therefore, they just tell us some hopes to tide us over.
People interpreting these hopes and aims as actual release windows are kind of setting themselves up for disappointment.
As much as I love that we were able to bring this game to life, and I like seeing the work going into it, I do think I hate the overall Kickstarter process. It's so much better when we see the game when it's ready to be shown, and to not even hear about the game until it's near its completion. All of these expectations and demands are overkill and I can't help but feel sympathy pain for the dev team for having every move they make watched and analyzed by a large audience and for the community managers whose jobs are to hold it all together.
I don't envy any of you.
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jun 20, 2018 2:03:07 GMT -6
Guys, I understand how some of you feel but this isn't about being let down by an eventual delay or how obvious such a move would be. It would be more about how to deal with such a circumstance.
The reason many people are very lenient with the 2017 placeholder delay is that in that case the matter was dealt with swiftly and very clearly, and the reasons for that were clearly stated. That is why most at least here don't really consider that a delay in the first place. But in fact it was.
So what I'm saying is: it doesn't matter how unrealistic or vague a release window is, if it's changed backers or general fans have to be notified,with transparency and maybe the reasons why it happened. In that way, the reasonable backers will be lenient about it. But saying or implying things like "The game will be late but you should have expected it because we didn't give a clear date but just a window so it's not real a delay" is a recipe for really pissing people off.
That said I agree on the hardships of a KS model. I am happy to have contributed to the project but in the future I'll never follow a game's development this closely. I am happy about this community and how the team interact with them, but being constantly overfed with infos and taking things too much at heart is not for me. Plus, I get anxiety seeing how hard the job for the team and the PR managers becomes sometimes.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 20, 2018 2:12:08 GMT -6
They didn't give a release date. They didn't give a release window. They gave what they hoped to release in. They didn't say the game will release in that time. They said they were hoping to, were aiming for it. But it was always a maybe. If you hear a maybe and interpret a promise, that is on no one else but yourself. I don't know. At this point I'm hoping we're lucky and get a Holiday 2018 release date, so this whole argument can be moot |
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jun 20, 2018 6:33:08 GMT -6
  I'm sorry, but messages like these can't simply be forgotten. 2018 has been the release window. It doesn't matter if a formal or informal one, at this point. THIS is what people read, and THIS is why IF the game is delayed to 2019 the delay MUST be recognized as such. And saying that it's people fault because they "interpreted it wrongly" is simply not true and mustn't happen, because it would be an act of great disrespect at this point. |
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 20, 2018 19:02:37 GMT -6
Thank you for these. This is the first time anyone's been able to provide examples of them saying the game WILL come out in 2018, or that 2018 is the release window. Those are definitely statements that would serve more than a "maybe", "hope", "estimate", etc.
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jun 20, 2018 21:41:50 GMT -6
lovelydumpling It's not that hard to find official claims, to be honest. It is kind of frustrating to see people trying to say they weren't made when they've been made pretty frequently. A few more examples: I wanted to let you all know that the official release date so far is only "2018"Bloodstained is indeed coming out in 2018As far as the release date is concerned, we've only confirmed 2018 so farfor now we're just saying "2018"when we announced that the game would come out "2018"These were all posted in response to claims that the game would be coming out in "spring 2018" or to inquiries as to when the game would be released. There is no ambiguity or lack of confidence in these responses. The official word of release is currently "2018." Any attempts to say that this wasn't the case, or that this was just when they hoped to release the game will be seen backtracking by people looking to tear down the game. And unlike when those people try to make claims of troubled development or comparisons to failed Kickstarters of the past, in this case they would be right. And that's what needs to be avoided at all costs. You can't stop cynics from being cynical. You aren't going to get trolls to stop trolling or malcontents to stop spreading misinformation. But once you've given them something that's verifiable, you've given them a foothold, and they can and will use that to make everything else they say seem more credible. The CotM release debacle was bad enough, but there was nothing Iga or 505 Games could do about that. We seem to have been fortunate in that it mostly only affected backers, so the larger gaming community didn't really notice. This, on the other hand, is entirely within their ability to control. Now Angel-Corlux has come out with the current plan for an announcement should it come to that(like you, I hope it won't, but I don't mind if it needs to), but I'm worried that that sort of nuance in an announcement is going to fall flat in the face of the currently existing communications. I know what they mean, and so do you, but all the gaming community is going to hear is the publisher's official representative mincing words about what actually constitutes a "release window" and then come to the conclusion that what 505 Games says can't be trusted. And we really don't need that. I stand by what I said earlier: The best thing to do if a delay to 2019 becomes necessary is to own it. Say that it's being delayed, and say why it's being delayed. That's it. Don't say anything that's going to cause confusion or mistrust. Trying to frame it as anything other than a delay is just going to cause every update thread on the Internet to be dominated with arguments over what Angel-Corlux actually meant by phrases like "is coming out" and "confirmed 2018."
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