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Post by Scars Unseen on Jun 15, 2018 8:55:52 GMT -6
A combo system (or anything else that deepens the combat) would in fact make the combat better. I don't think that's a fact at all. Combat in Iga's games is about timing and placement, and while adding combos would certainly change that, I don't believe it would be for the better. Putting the focus on one thing takes it away from another, and one of the things I like about Igavanias is that the exploration and the combat are intertwined. In its most difficult incarnations, you need to master the same skills both to navigate the more complex environments and to defeat the more troublesome enemies. Adding combos would shift away from that, and IMO would make the game worse. |
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Post by ZeroSbr on Jun 15, 2018 8:58:02 GMT -6
A combo system (or anything else that deepens the combat) would in fact make the combat better. I don't think that's a fact at all. Combat in Iga's games is about timing and placement, and while adding combos would certainly change that, I don't believe it would be for the better. Putting the focus on one thing takes it away from another, and one of the things I like about Igavanias is that the exploration and the combat are intertwined. In its most difficult incarnations, you need to master the same skills both to navigate the more complex environments and to defeat the more troublesome enemies. Adding combos would shift away from that, and IMO would make the game worse. You can add combos that require timing and placement to execute. Look at Ninja Gaiden Black. |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 15, 2018 9:08:50 GMT -6
Ninja Gaiden Black and Bloodstained are about as different as two video games can get...
Timing and placement in combos isn't even the issue, and this is coming from me as a competitive Guilty Gear player of 13 years. Here's the man himself explaining what we mean:
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Post by duomaxwell007 on Jun 15, 2018 9:16:32 GMT -6
Then 95% of the people who backed this game either can't read or has no brain. I doubt it, though, because it was pretty clear in the campaign from day one that the game would have been 2.5D. Also, if someone can't read "ALL IMAGES ARE CONCEPT ART, NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE FINAL PRODUCT" or the section where it clearly explained the 2.5D nature it's their damn problem. I can't understand if you seriously believe what you wrote or you just want to flame. I'll stop responding to you either way.
"ALL IMAGES ARE CONCEPT ART, NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE FINAL PRODUCT" Yup that part is definitely there in huge letters in fact. But to me that means "the game may not look exactly like this but itll look pretty close.. or this is the art style we're going with otherwise why post it?" Not "We're gonna take the Mighty Number 9 graphical approach cause we all saw how well received that was when it was later changed from the 2 greatness it was advertised as to the exploding pizzas look it has now"
"or the section where it clearly explained the 2.5D nature"
And where n the campaign page is that listed? Cause I literally just checked the whole thing and 2.5D is listed NOWHERE. Now it was finally revealed/mentioned in an UPDATE but by that time theyd already had everyones money
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 15, 2018 9:46:32 GMT -6
Then 95% of the people who backed this game either can't read or has no brain. I doubt it, though, because it was pretty clear in the campaign from day one that the game would have been 2.5D. Also, if someone can't read "ALL IMAGES ARE CONCEPT ART, NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE FINAL PRODUCT" or the section where it clearly explained the 2.5D nature it's their damn problem. I can't understand if you seriously believe what you wrote or you just want to flame. I'll stop responding to you either way.
"ALL IMAGES ARE CONCEPT ART, NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE FINAL PRODUCT" Yup that part is
definitely there in huge letters in fact. But to me that means "the game may not look exactly like this but itll look pretty close.. or this is the art style we're going with otherwise why post it?" Not "We're gonna take the Mighty Number 9 graphical approach cause we all saw how well received that was when it was later changed from the 2 greatness it was advertised as to the exploding pizzas look it has now"
"or the section where it clearly explained the 2.5D nature"
And where n the campaign page is that listed? Cause I literally just checked the whole thing and 2.5D is listed NOWHERE. Now it was finally revealed/mentioned in an UPDATE but by that time theyd already had everyones money
Concept art is of course as the words imply a 2D drawn image, which in practice is near impossible to depict a half .5 extra "dimension". I'm not sure someone could draw a representative picture of a 2.5 game that wants to look 2D if they wanted. There's also the issue of us actually voting later what graphical styling/shader we wanted for the game, so that by necessity if it had been an accurate representation at the time would have had to change some. Development had hardly started at all back then. As far as explaining it was 2.5D, "why 2.5D?" was added to the FAQ section (or at least "last updated") 2 days after KS launch. I actually knew it'd be 2.5 or 3D before the campaign even began since one of Iga's Sword or Whip messages in the teaser campaign told us "you should know that this isn't my final form. Two dimensions cannot hold me". You are however right that it isn't on the main campaign page; I just never noticed during the time because of everything else I'd seen. The text of the FAQ (May 13, 2015): Q: Why 2.5D?
A: Because this is an Igavania game, the gameplay and feel of traditional 2D games is non-negotiable. Even so, IGA decided to go with 2.5D for this project for both financial and artistic reasons. A 2.5D world built on Unreal Engine 4 was the right choice to balance development time, graphical fidelity, budget, and scope.
At the same time, IGA is very excited about exploring the paths a 2.5D style opens up within the classic Igavania formula. As he begins a new chapter of his career as a developer, he's looking forward to trying things that will enhance, rather than detract from, that core gameplay.
However, we would NEVER discount the fans' love for that classic style. The development team is looking forward to working with backers every step of the way to decide on custom shaders that will give the game a distinctive, hand-crafted look, so there are no surprises. Games like Guilty Gear and Strider are proof that 2.5D can be handled in a way that honors a classic aesthetic while allowing for new possibilities; that’s what IGA hopes to achieve with this project.
That said, one section of the castle will feature an area that Miriam can traverse in beautiful retro graphics. We are dubbing this section “the 8-bit level” although it may be close to 16 bit or 32 bit depending on how we mix it with the full game. While a full-blown 8-bit game doesn't fit into the full budget, backer support allows us to have fun with the development and create a little retro magic in our game. |
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Post by Persephone on Jun 15, 2018 9:53:33 GMT -6
And where n the campaign page is that listed? Cause I literally just checked the whole thing and 2.5D is listed NOWHERE. Now it was finally revealed/mentioned in an UPDATE but by that time theyd already had everyones money
On the Kickstarter page, under FAQ, in the section "Why 2.5D?". It's been there since the beginning of the campaign (to be precise, 2 days after the campaign started: May 13 2015 7:26 PM EDT, if not before. The time stamp is from when it was last edited, not when it originally went live.) (Gah! You beat me to it, purifyweirdshard!) |
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Post by ZeroSbr on Jun 15, 2018 10:32:59 GMT -6
"Ninja Gaiden Black and Bloodstained are about as different as two video games can get..."
Not really. Both have exploration, both involve platforming...just varying degrees. Ninja Gaiden Black just has more skill based combat and emphasizes combat a lot more than it does exploration and platforming. I'm not saying that it's totally just like Bloodstained, but to say that they're as different as two video games can get is a bit of a stretch.
NGB's combo system would translate well enough to a sidescroller anyways. It's not like adding a combo system would make the game any slower.
Ultimately, I'm glad combos won't be a thing in this game. I don't want this to turn into Lords of Shadow Mirror of Fate.
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Post by exalt9 on Jun 15, 2018 16:17:18 GMT -6
My suspicion of Iga not wanting to reveal a delay at E3 is that it may kill the hype, so he will introduce a bunch of updates, then announce a delay.
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Post by Angel-Corlux on Jun 15, 2018 16:19:50 GMT -6
duomaxwell007 unless I have misunderstood Angel-Corlux the "demo" this month is the beta mentioned in the Kickstarter. Angel-Corlux, I think "demo" is confusing people. I know "game slice" is another term being used, but it's important to backers to understand that this demo is the beta process. Well, the official designation is Beta Backer Demo. I think that as succinctly as possible describes what it is and all 3 words are important. Angel-Corlux can correct me if I'm wrong on these interpretations. Beta: it's the beta, and that's the first word in it, so that's good to go Backer: it's just for backers Demo: the part that informs you that it isn't the type of PC game beta where you have early access to the majority of the game (typically more applicable for something that's multiplayer) External/informal use of the words separately can be confusing though, so we have to be careful. If Duo expected a FULL beta for feedback like I mentioned, that's just not something I and the majority would want anyway - this is the type of game that's best experienced in its entirety once its completed and all the little touches are in place. After you've done it once, the impressions of your first experience are set and that's the game for you. I would just avoid playing it entirely if it was a full thing because of that and it'd probably be much later down the line/too late to implement much improvement. We're not talking about Overwatch or a fighting game etc with this.
That's exactly the logic behind naming the upcoming Beta Backer Demo. I'm a believer in simplicity and elegance. 
To answer everyone else, IGN was extremely supportive and very positive with our game. They supported us with lots of great coverage both on their live show and by coming to play the demo multiple times, bringing more of their friends and colleagues each time. I've personally been a big fan of them all my life so it was an especially proud/surreal moment for me, kind of like when Easy Allies came to play (twice) and interview Iga.
And while the demo was behind closed doors and we had good quality headphones set up to allow for the sfx and music to shine, it's also to be understood that you're only going to get a taste of the music that's in the game when you play what's essentially the first 60+ minutes of the game (not speed running and not exploring everything, just a middle of the road estimate).
So I'm really not worried about that one comment about expecting more catchy tracks, I'm really confident the music is going to kill it in this game.
As for the concern that IGN's assumption about what the stage of development is for the game therefore = delay imminent, well I would caution against leaping to conclusions like that. We've made no secret that development is still considered at the alpha stage, and with this Beta Backer Demo we're starting the transition to Beta.
Having said that, if pushing out the release date to announce it in 2019 became necessary, (wouldn't be a delay really since we haven't announced a date yet) we would absolutely do that. Let's be frank: the absolute, number one priority is making the game meet the highest quality bar possible while also making financial sense for ArtPlay and 505 Games. It's not pushing out the game and cashing in so we can move on. Bloodstained 2, 3 and 4 ain't gonna happen that way.
While it may suck to have to wait for a game longer than originally anticipated, literally NO ONE is going to care about the wait after release, they're going to care about whether or not we made a high quality, fun game. From the results of the Feedback Survey we recently published it was also obvious with something like 98% of people saying "release when ready, not asap".
And I'm a firm believer that literally 100% of the people who would complain about waits/delays would then be the exact same people who would eviscerate the game if it weren't up to snuff just to get out the door by a certain date.
Hopefully that answers all concerns, but as always, I'm more than happy to field any questions or concerns any of you guys may have.  |
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Post by Yän on Jun 15, 2018 16:38:04 GMT -6
Angel-Corlux Man, I'm going to be fully supportive if you decide to delay it to 2019 to meet quality standards but please don't try to frame it as "not actually a delay" because that's absolutely what it would be. There were multiple comments by you promising a 2018 release so while that's not a very specific release date, it does come from an official source and the frame for these promises is 2018 making a 2019 release date a delay, nothing less nothing more. I'll understand that you guys need more time since this game is going to be massive with a ton of features and game modes. I'll gladly accept a delay if it means that the game will be better. But still - it would be a delay, it would be recognized as such by fans and it would be wise not to try to sugarcoat it. Really though, take all the time you need! That being said - I'm glad you guys had a great time at E3!
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Post by XombieMike on Jun 15, 2018 17:56:56 GMT -6
.. but please don't try to frame it as "not actually a delay" because that's absolutely what it would be. Yeah. There is a big difference between what is technically correct and what is just widely perceived. Perception IS reality. I personally don't feel like the first "delay" was a delay, but it was. March 2017 was formally delayed in update 43 (9/8/16) to the first half of 2018. That in turn was officially delayed in update 62 (3/28/18) with the following quote: This paragraph was buried deep in a HUGE update that had loads of content, and it's the most important piece of the puzzle when answering where we officially stand with a release date. Even the way it's worded "based on speculation" is just another glimpse at what Yan is touching on here. Don't get me wrong, and please understand: I have a huge respect and great gratitude for Angel-Corlux. I have no issue openly saying that I think the way release expectations are communicated is not clear and has the attitude of treating backers asking about release with deflection rather than being direct. I believe this is done to avoid negative press, but it's at the cost of a constant disservice to backers. Communication survey was great though, so there is no problem |
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Post by Angel-Corlux on Jun 15, 2018 19:03:00 GMT -6
Angel-Corlux Man, I'm going to be fully supportive if you decide to delay it to 2019 to meet quality standards but please don't try to frame it as "not actually a delay" because that's absolutely what it would be. There were multiple comments by you promising a 2018 release so while that's not a very specific release date, it does come from an official source and the frame for these promises is 2018 making a 2019 release date a delay, nothing less nothing more. I'll understand that you guys need more time since this game is going to be massive with a ton of features and game modes. I'll gladly accept a delay if it means that the game will be better. But still - it would be a delay, it would be recognized as such by fans and it would be wise not to try to sugarcoat it. Really though, take all the time you need! That being said - I'm glad you guys had a great time at E3!
XombieMike Totally agree, like I mentioned to Yan. I really regret if anyone feels we've been deflecting about the release date, that's not at all my intention. We've very clearly mentioned that we've been and are still planning for a 2018 release, but the official stance right now is what you linked "no official release date is set yet, but we'll be announcing one soon".
In the next few months the release window should be announced though, so hopefully that will help clear things up for everyone. |
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Post by abaddon on Jun 16, 2018 1:17:47 GMT -6
Ummm..... This is a "huh wat" moment. 1st "Expected Transition Delay" - Is Kickstarter's fault for not allowing to fix/putting in the right time periods in the first place (it was a place holder nothing else). But was expected to happen. We knew in Aug. of 2016 this going to happen and IGA announced it in the update 43 (9/8/16). Which wiped the Mar. 17 2017 off the board completely. And promised to a TBD 2018 date which he wish/hoped for a first quarter release but knew it was unlikely. Even tho IGA used the the word delay himself this is not his fault and not a true delay. 2nd " A made Delay" - This one is on us (sorry). We as Fans ....etc. came to this conclusion during the update 43 (9/8/16) video when IGA wish/hoped for a first quarter release and slapped on the Mar. 17 date to that. When the date was already wiped and wasn't going to be used. Angel-Corlux had been telling every one 6-7 months before the Mar. time period that they had gotten it all wrong and explain in detail what happen multiple times here,kickstarter ...etc. but to no prevail. This is "NOT" a delay. 3rd " COTM Launch Delay" - This one is on Inti for not realizing the size and scope of the project and waiting to long. This one is a indirect delay. To date the team has not done anything to cause so much doubt to the army of the night. Angel-Corlux has stated that the game is on time, over and over. We are in the beta phase and their waiting on our feedback for this demo to give a better and accurate release window/period; IGA said very soon also (in the IGN video). IGA within his control gave zero delay's and never lied to us. My wish is that, as Fans we don't give up on this very wonderful team of the night of lord IGA's. I want to say sorry for any hurt feelings I may have caused it wasn't my intent, just to inform. Also to say sorry to Angel-Corlux, IGA, Mana etc. for not being a good/honorable fan, especially to IGA when he broke down in tear's. And I know there are other's who feel or closely the same too, And thank you for that also. Bloodstained is more than a vision but a work from the heart that brings joy in others. The real enemy's are "Investors of Konami" and the missed up date "Mar. 17 2017" Monsters burn them with holy fire. "IN IGA WE TURST"   |
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Post by Busterific on Jun 16, 2018 8:59:28 GMT -6
It makes sense that the final release date not be announced until all the Beta feedback is received and adjustments they want to put in related to that added in to the timeline.
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Post by Cale on Jun 16, 2018 11:08:05 GMT -6
I see one of two things happening. If there is ANY input from the Beta, there will be a delay. It is a perfect reason to delay a game. "It's not up to standards."
If there is NO feedback, the game should be released before 2019, seeing as there is nothing that people disagree with.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 16, 2018 12:56:17 GMT -6
Just want to point out that Fangamer and co were clear about the placeholder release date of 2017 well before Iga's announcement. I remember there being other conversations with them during interviews and the like during the campaign as well. They were pretty outspoken that the March 2017 Kickstarter date was the placeholder date. It was only inevitable that people would miss the memo though, hence Iga's announcement. I don't consider that even technically a delay because it solely revolves around fans making assumptions and missing known information. This would be the first real delay, but even then, I can see Angel-Corlux 's point. They have never once as far as I can remember said "The game will release in 2018." They have always used more ambiguous dialogue. "We're hoping to release", "That's our aim", "We seem to be on track to" but never "It will." People are of course going to see that as an official release window, but ultimately all of their dialogue surrounded it left a bit of room of "But it might not." |
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Post by Yän on Jun 16, 2018 13:47:31 GMT -6
lovelydumpling I remember reading multiple comments by official Bloodstained-Channels or -Pages that pretty clearly promised a 2018 release date (which I assume were written by Angel). To be fair, the times he said that it was usually as a reply to some comments on facebook and youtube, not a big open announcement. That's why I'm a bit too lazy to dig up the individual sources on my claim haha 
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Post by XombieMike on Jun 16, 2018 23:13:01 GMT -6
They have never once as far as I can remember said "The game will release in 2018." They have always used more ambiguous dialogue. "We're hoping to release", "That's our aim", "We seem to be on track to" but never "It will." The first half of '18 was an expectation sent out in an update that specifically focused on announcing a time frame. Not tucked away in a huge update that focused on other things. Not something said on a forum only 2k backers registered on, but a KS update. I find it refreshing that people are so willing to overlook delays and come to the defense of my favorite creator and his team. I kind of envy the sentiment. The only reason I think it's important for a reality check is that people like Yan who have been part of the community from the beginning is a representative of those backers who will think like he does. I think I can safely assume that Yan isn't the only backer out there that think's framing a delay as something other than a delay is just blowing smoke up people's holes. |
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jun 17, 2018 1:33:04 GMT -6
I agree. I'm the first to defend the game from absurd statements like "We've already had three delays, it will release in 2024", and I never considered the shift from 2017 to 2018 a real delay because it was announced very quickly and because of the placeholder thing, but the will to make the game come out this year has been vehemently stated multiple times both in formal and informal contexts, so if the game were to come out next year it would be a delay without a shadow lf a doubt. This wouldn't even be a problem, I'm willing to wait all the time it takes, but it would certainly be a delay and not treating it as such using technicalities like "Yeah, but we said HOPE" would be a very unwise move IMO and it would make quite a bit of people rightfully pissed, because then it's not about the delay itself anymore but about the transparency of communication, and that has always been the pride of this project and this community. So I encourage the team to take their time and proceed how they see fit. If that mindset is accompanied by clear, honest communication, then it's all right. Keep up the good work everyone |
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Post by Viftech on Jun 17, 2018 2:17:28 GMT -6
I think the negativ connotation a lot of people have about delays in video games are from games that have been in development hell or from Kickstarter/Indiegogo and the like where you get the news and information about what's happening around the game from the start, which incluses the release window being pushed back. So some people will always fear the worst and vent out their fear on the social media of their choice. It's something to be expected when you follow the games development so closely. If I where to have the same insight in most of the games I have played I would probably be nervous as well, but I don't really feel nervous at all regarding Bloodstained. I have felt that it's been in good hands since the start. It probably helps that I haven't been burned on any kickstarter yet and that every kickstarter game I have played have been pretty good.
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