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Post by dareka on Feb 16, 2019 11:29:47 GMT -6
Reading the articles and the comments, I get the impression that it's not just players, but the gaming media that doesn't know how things work in this industry.
"Delayed for two years from the originally targeted release date" is par for the course for game development.
What happens is that not all games are delayed once the publisher's publicly committed to a release date. You can bet though, that by the time a game's been announced, there's a good chance it's been delayed internally for a year or so, sometimes more.
Honestly, if you think Kickstarter release dates are more like "guidelines", you've never seen the release dates used to get games green-lighted by management.
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Post by dareka on Feb 16, 2019 10:59:00 GMT -6
All this reveals some interesting information too, such as: SIDE SCROLLING ENVIRONMENT THAT CHANGES AND EVOLVES AS YOU PLAY
That may be just a metaphor, or maybe the game REALLY changes as you play? Maybe the procedural generation has been used for more than just build scenarios? Or you can destroy/change/affect the environment (like what we saw on the videos, with the ghostly carriage). Probably something like what we saw in the video: destroying or moving around 3D assets, affecting gameplay. Doubt they'd need any kind of procedural generation for it, though - just a larger save file!
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Post by dareka on Feb 15, 2019 17:59:15 GMT -6
12) One of the videos revealed who is the "Mysterious Man" that is man that looks like a dark being. What do you think he is? (A Shardbinder, a vampire, a demon?) and what do you think his role will be at the game?It's Alucard, with just enough changes to avoid copyright infringement. I just wish the color scheme were not as... primary... 14) Miriam's customization was revealed. Miriam's hair type and color, her clothes colors and skin color can be changed, alongside boots and head gear that shows up on her body and different scarves. Did you like these options? Did you expected more?More or less what I expected. I'm really happy with it, if for no other reason than if NotOfficiallyAlucard is playable I can change his colors to something less wince inducing. Seriously. 16) Anything else you would like to share?I may have come off as negative in this post, but I'm actually really hyped for the game.
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Post by dareka on Feb 15, 2019 17:45:11 GMT -6
Galamoth i agree with you. Not much on PoR, but to me, OoE surpassed Symphony of the Night. Time 4 Tea it's fine, i like to do those breakdowns, no worries. JeffCross haha, calm down man! but yes, i'm OVERLY hyped. And damn, Mana surely deserves a raise, and more, for all her work and passion! Just remember: Neither Mana nor IGA nor anyone else at ArtPlay will be getting a raise until Bloodstained to turns in a profit. I'm thinking of buying a Switch copy just to help out (I chose the Windows version). Tell all your friends about the game and get them to try it. It could be the difference between Bloodstained 2 (with Mana as lead character designer or at least assistant producer) and all the devs out of a job.
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Post by dareka on Feb 15, 2019 14:01:37 GMT -6
She has definitely been busy...and all of this from what I understand comes from her own passion to do so. I think that extends to the team as a whole - they have ideas and ask if they can step in and implement something, and Iga lets them go for it. Sounds like a great work environment, and from interviews is exactly how SotN got so many of its little charming touches from the developers. This is precisely why I'm not partial to the notion of " IGA's vision," so often brought up to defend Vepar's original look. A game's the composite vision of everyone involved, including backers, in this case. IGA might be the steward, but everyone's on board - and the project is all the better for it. Between this game and FFXIV: Shadowbringers, I get the feeling I'll be enjoying my summer quite a bit this year.
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Post by dareka on Feb 15, 2019 1:04:51 GMT -6
Well, I might know what happened with Valac's (the big dragon) textures specifically: Also, potentially good news for anyone concerned about the scene with Miriam and Zangy zipping along. She said she would pass on the things that she couldn't change herself to the rest of the team. This is the same artist as the box art btw, and the Communications Manager (person you see accompanying Iga for everything). Looks like more than a simple touch-up to me. What's encouraging here is that the visuals have improved quite dramatically, and there's still more to come. Also, whatever it is they're paying Mana , it's not enough.
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Post by dareka on Feb 1, 2019 0:31:54 GMT -6
Pointless update is pointless...¯\_(ツ)_/¯ And they continue to burn what little good will is left by not giving us a release date or addressing the Linux / Mac cancellation issue. Way to go ArtPlay / 505 Games, you're slowly but surely turning this Kickstarter into a PR disaster. Well, they'll give us a release date when they're ready to begin the final marketing push. They've also addressed the Linux / Mac cancellation issue. That not everyone was satisfied with the answer is another matter altogether.
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Post by dareka on Jan 14, 2019 23:35:23 GMT -6
Personally, nothing's keeping me from being excited at the moment. On the contrary, the fact that they're taking the criticism the beta baker demo got to heart is really encouraging and makes me very excited for the finished product. It's not that I can't sympathize with those who are disappointed or less excited for the game - it's just that I can also sympathize with the developers and staff. Yes, not getting a refund despite the platform you backed the game for being dropped sucks. It genuinely sucks. But there are other things that suck, too. The stress the developers are under. The meager pay and long hours they've endured while working on the game for years now (how do I know the pay is meager and the hours long? because that's how it is at small Japanese developers. Game developers are overworked all over the world; but in Japan, they're paid peanuts for it on top of that.) The uncertainty as to whether or not this will be ArtPlay's first and final game also sucks; same goes for the pressure the staff at 505 is under to turn a profit on it. So I think about these things, and about this community, and how even when morale is down, XombieMike , purifyweirdshard , and the rest manage to keep discussions civil and inviting, and I can't help but root for the game! Maybe it also has to do with the fact that I mostly just play FFXIV and the occasional dungeon crawler these days, but I'm really looking forward to spending some quality time with what promises to be the biggest IGAvania ever when it hits later this year.
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Post by dareka on Jan 12, 2019 13:05:59 GMT -6
写真で見ると日本人(?)のスタッフさんも多いんですね。応援してます! はい、でも彼らは忙しいです。あなたが必要なら私は彼らの注意を引くでしょう warthecheese さん XombieMike さんの意図した返事内容とは 「その通りです。スタッフの方々は今大変忙しいのですが、ご要望があれば私が取り次ぎを致します。」 ということです。この時期、スタッフの方々には中々フォーラムを確認する余裕はないが、フォーラムの管理者である彼からのメッセージなら確認してくれるでしょう、という意味です。 Translation: warthecheese, What XombieMike meant to say is "Yes. But they're very busy right now. If you need, I can get their attention." What he means is that at this point in time the staff doesn't have much time to check the forums, but if he - the forum administrator - contacts them, they'll pay attention. XombieMike dude, what Google Translate had you say is "if you are necessary, I will distract them." Never trust Google Translate for Japanese.
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Post by dareka on Jan 10, 2019 12:19:50 GMT -6
If refunds were possible, they would do them. No one wants the bad PR on any side. That means for some reason refunds are not possible, and for some reason they won't come right on out and say exactly why. I think many people have figured out why though, which has been mentioned a few times in various places. My backer choices are locked for what platform I'm on, so I can't confirm it, but was there ever a time these backers actually chose the Mac or Linux platform? I don't recall it being an option in the list. The whole reason might very well be that they would have to open refunds to every PC backer, and that would just be very irresponsible and a decision that is obviously correct to refuse to pay refunds. It's the only thing that makes sense. I have no idea why they wouldn't just come out and say that is what happened. Ownership and accountability is a quality I expect from all involved companies, but if they haven't said why then there is probably a reason we can't see in public. Well, we can't be sure that's the main and or only reason (not establishing a precedent for refunding users after a Kickstarter project has been saved by a publisher, for example, would be another), but if it were, and they came out and said it, I doubt those complaining in the forum about not getting a refund would be satisfied, and many people still wouldn't be convinced it's a legitimate reason. "If you made a logistics mistake when doing your backer surveys, and said mistake makes it riskier for you to offer a refund, that is none of my concern. You violated a terms of service agreement when you did not keep your promise to me, and so I promise to sue and make sure you suffer in terms of sales." So, their answer was very short and to the point: "Artplay offered refunds when they had money to do so. They don't have funds anymore, and 505 is not violating the terms of service agreement by not offering refunds."
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Post by dareka on Jan 9, 2019 23:25:03 GMT -6
Ultimately, I think it's clear that refunding Mac and Linux users would be ideal; but I'm not convinced 505 made a morally questionable decision in deciding not to offer refunds. When we tend to look at game companies as selfish entities out to exploit the consumer we tend to forget one very important detail: just as often, consumers themselves are selfish people all too eager to exploit game companies, either because of greed or a misguided sense of entitlement (look no further than piracy as an example, though there are countless others). Two wrongs don't make a right. Your argument about consumers being equally selfish suggests that, since 505 refused to refund my payment, it should be equally acceptable for me to crack the game and put it up on TPB to get even with them. I think we all know that's not right.
The moral thing to do is give people what they've paid for, or return their money if you cannot give them what they paid for. That is not misguided entitlement.
505's statement says nothing about an insurmountable technical problem, nor does it need to; it implies that the problem IS solvable, but doing so is not profitable to them, so they've chosen not to. It's not a technical decision, it's a profit-loss based business decision.
The idea is that not that two wrongs make a right - it's that as a publisher, 505 has a legitimate interest in not opening itself to abuse by disgruntled fans, unfortunate though the consequences may be for backers such as yourself. You're free to disagree, of course - I'm just trying to be clear on the idea that I was trying to get across.
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Post by dareka on Jan 9, 2019 15:01:36 GMT -6
As for evil companies, everything you said is true. At the end of the day though, you have a small amount of people seeking refunds for a legitimate reason, and a publishing company and / or development company not willing to foot the bill for whatever reason that we can't be lead to understand. There is no legal reason for a refund, but there is a moral one, and this is the first legitimate time I've ever heard of IGA being on the wrong side of something like this. If there is no pre-existing registry of which users would have opted for the Mac or Linux version, as opposed to GOG and Steam, then a company who's risking a lot of money to bring the game to the market might well be reluctant to allow any user who selected GOG and Steam to ask for a refund due to the lack of native support for Mac and Linux, especially if they feel they don't have any legal liability. What they did tells me they believed the backlash for canceling native support for those two platforms would, in fact, be less damaging to them in terms of sales than releasing the game in a state which is less polished than it would otherwise be. Whether or not this is the case is something we will never objectively know for sure (unless someone develops a way to look into alternate timelines), but that's what they're betting on. Now, about the morality of the situation, I would personally not put the blame on IGA without knowing the full story - which, again, for legal reasons we're unlikely to ever know. At the end of the day, it's not even necessarily his call, since it's 505 who's now funding the project. Ultimately, I think it's clear that refunding Mac and Linux users would be ideal; but I'm not convinced 505 made a morally questionable decision in deciding not to offer refunds. When we tend to look at game companies as selfish entities out to exploit the consumer we tend to forget one very important detail: just as often, consumers themselves are selfish people all too eager to exploit game companies, either because of greed or a misguided sense of entitlement (look no further than piracy as an example, though there are countless others). The point I'm trying to make - no more than my opinion, obviously, but the same may be said for everybody else - is that without knowing further details about the how and why the decision not to offer refunds was reached (information companies never fully disclose), I would leave it at "it's a real shame they're not offering refunds," and not pass any moral judgement on 505 for their decision. I can easily imagine legitimate reasons for not offering them, such as campaigns to encourage other Steam / GOG users to opt for refunds in solidarity with affected Linux and Mac users, lack of a budget for the logistics involved, the precedent set by covering another company - ArtPlay's - debt when they're not legally bound to, etc. Obviously, it's equally possible the decision came down to one of the higher ups at 505 going "Is ArtPlay doing those two versions? No? then don't offer refunds if we don't need to." As for IGA himself, I'm sure he's acting as best as his own moral compass - which doesn't always have to coincide with mine - dictates. Everything I know of him tells me that. His efforts throughout the project tell me that. This is a man who quit his stable job at his longtime employer and has put his family's livelihood at risk for several years now in order to make this game a reality, and deliver the best possible game to the majority of his backers. I have no reason to doubt he and most of the people involved with the project made the best decision they could. The end result was that two platforms were dropped and no refunds were offered. I'll say the situation's regrettable; I won't say he made a morally bad decision.
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Post by dareka on Jan 8, 2019 10:51:55 GMT -6
Not only did I hope we'd have updates like that in general, but that they'd take the place of all these enemy design updates. I'd rather see content like that in game while I'm actually playing it, rather than beforehand. To clear, I'm not saying it can't be done, but it is probably riskier than it seems at first glance, because they're not a group of enthusiasts making a game as a hobby with open source software: they're a company that's licensing technology and generating intellectual property. By intellectual property I mean both the assets and the source code. Giving more detail about what's being done and why without violating contractual obligations can be difficult. Also, some people believe they are experts at everything and will basically trash the developers whenever they admit to having a problem. IGA: "We're having trouble getting X part of the engine and running." BACKER: "You're doing that at this point in development! X is normally the first thing you do, how did you make it to this point, this game is a fraud!" IGA: "Well, we did do it first. And that's how we got here, but we just realized we can't use it because we lost the rights to that piece of code when we switched devs / pubs. Oh, wait, I wasn't supposed to say that as per our contract. Now I'll be sued by people who actually will follow through with their threats and probably never work in the industry again. But at least I have your understanding, right?" BACKER: "Your game is a fraud!" The point I want to make is that providing more information about the dev process is also fraught with danger, and not just because some users might find it boring. I personally think the biggest "problems" with the updates is simply that the game has been in development for a lot longer than we'd like.
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Post by dareka on Jan 7, 2019 16:39:20 GMT -6
Sorry for the delay. One of the people I need to speak to was supposed to be in the office this afternoon, but it looks like they are not going to make it in. I am going to address the topic as soon as I am able. ...*ahem*... like I said... The reason communication flows smoothly and quickly between the devs and the player community is because Yoshi-P is not only the game's main PR guy, he's also the game's main decision maker, being both project manager and creative director. And he's one of the company directors at the publisher. So unless you get that kind of combination in a single person, there's always going to be some difficulty communicating with the user base, because all messages have to go through everyone. Unless you're the creative & administrative lead & one of the company directors and the publisher at the same time, i.e., unless you answer to no one else (like Yoshi-P), you always have to go through all the people concerned with the matter in the your organization before you give the user base an answer on controversial questions. Thanks for the update, Question ! We'll wait.
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Post by dareka on Jan 6, 2019 13:15:11 GMT -6
Heh, people being worried about DICO's involvement changing is a prime example of how following this whole development has gone. We see something in the start of the Kickstarter, or in an update then months later things have been dropped or changed or never mentioned again. Yeah, we have no real reason to believe DICO is any less involved than originally announced. I like monthly updates, but I think updates have been approached in a way that could have been more informative about the development process. It feels like there is a PR curtain in place, and the strategy for releasing information is just to let us know that everything is still going ok with new content, and we are on a need to know basis. I get what you're saying, and I totally understand this sentiment. Some of the updates have not felt very substantial, to put it mildly. However, I can also understand why this is, and it's basically these three reasons. 1. The game's proven to be way more difficult and costly to develop than anticipated. There are several reasons for this, but I'll mainly address just one here: way too many platforms and stretch-goals in the campaign. Game developers are notoriously overconfident when defining the project scope for their games, mostly because that's the way they want them to turn out. IGA had never developed for that many platforms (probably thought middleware would make things eas y, when it only makes things easi er), and I don't think he'd ever done so many features in a single game, either. So the difficulty in creating the game - and by extension the time and budget were greatly underestimated. Now, this is is actually rather par for the course in game development, but since it's a Kickstarter, they can't very well drop any stretch-goal without incurring significant backlash, so they don't drop anything other than platforms (and we're seeing how well that's working out). So in this sense, Kickstarters are more difficult than regular development, because there is a PR backlash for one of the most common practices in game development, dropping features and delaying games (I'd be willing to bet most games don't meet their original target release date, and that they go over-budget, too). So, what does this have to do with the updates? Well, having so many features means you have to spend lots of time working on the game's back-end, i.e. things that won't show well until you have the finished product in your hands. Picture it: September update: "We've made huge progress on the dev tools, guys, now our planners (game designers) can polish this feature to a shine without waiting for new builds! Aren't you excited?" October update: "OK, so after weeks of testing, we think we've found the right balance between performance and memory consumption for this area. It's gonna look the same as before, but it'll run a lot better on the weaker hardware." November update: "Finally managed to fix that bug that was causing the game to crash when you beat the game in Boss Rush mode. It was only happening with a certain specific hardware and driver configuration, but it was just unacceptable. Also, automatic enemy placement has been incorporated into the dev tools, and the ai scripting features have also been significantly improved." This is what actual game development looks like: lots and lots of coding and testing to create an environment what will let you implement and fine tune all of the features that will ultimately show in the final product. But most people probably don't want to see that in an update, so... the devs go mum. 2. The developers have opted to listen to and implement our suggestions as if they were Kickstarter campaign promises, even though they are not. And just when you thought you'd finished updating your tools and graphics engine, the community finds it " lacking." Oh, boy. So now you go back to updating your tools and engine. And you don't show any stuff until it's absolutely locked. Why? Remember when you showed off a prototype with Zangetsu and the demo then looked really shitty when compared to it? Well, maybe the final game won't look as bad - you did disable the shaders just to get the demo out (mostly) on time - but you might have avoided that sh!tstorm if you hadn't shown off a non-final version to begin with. The effect that backer feedback has had on delaying the game and increasing it's scope beyond what was originally promised should not be underestimated. The game looks the way it does because of feedback. The game is going to look better now because of feedback. They could easily ignore this feedback and they are not ignoring it. What I'm trying to say here is that we've been encouraging IGA throughout all of the project to go back to the drawing board, precisely because they've shown us quite a bit of the product - just not through updates. And every time they we make them go back to the drawing board, we extend the period before the next substantial update. 3. With some games, there's no easy way to show progress until the game is close to finished. Bloodstained is one such game. A retro style game with assets that are relatively easy to create can be shown off quickly and without much trouble, and while the same can't be said for a big budget AAA game, those have... other means to do PR. Like, you hire a separate team to work on the demo. Or you use high-end dev PCs to show off the game and then get a separate team to work on optimization so the final product looks close enough that people won't notice. Or you photoshop your screenshots. Bloodstained does not fall into either of these easily PR-able categories. They are on an extremely tight budget. I know this because the game has been in development for more than twice as long as originally planned. They also can't have crazy high expectations for sales. So they can't spend money to make the game look good before it actually looks good, like they do with AAA games, and the game is not retro-enough that it looks fine without much effort. So, there's that. Now, can these obstacles be surmounted? Sure, but it's not easy and... to be honest - and this is just conjecture on my part - there's probably another factor at work here: Japanese devs don't really feel comfortable showing off works-in-progress. They don't like talking about how the sausage is made. It's a cultural thing. Add to this the fact that the publisher is 1) a separate company and 2) not Japanese and ... there's probably communication issues working against the staff, internally, that somehow manifest externally. Not as in "they don't get along," but as in it's more difficult for them to get on the same page sometimes, because they have different assumptions about what is not said in meetings, even with multicultural bilingual team members. If you want to see an example of Japanese devs having good communication with the user-base, the only one I can think of is FFXIV's Yoshi-P. I'm sure lots of people would disagree with me, but trust me, that's as good as it gets. The reason communication flows smoothly and quickly between the devs and the player community is because Yoshi-P is not only the game's main PR guy, he's also the game's main decision maker, being both project manager and creative director. And he's one of the company directors at the publisher. So unless you get that kind of combination in a single person, there's always going to be some difficulty communicating with the user base, because all messages have to go through everyone. Different people might have different ideas about how to address an issue, and these things can be magnified by cultural differences. Anyway, sorry for the mega-long post. There's just a lot I think I understand about this situation that I feel I need to share.
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Post by dareka on Dec 29, 2018 18:57:20 GMT -6
I find it a bit odd that Unreal 4 Engine can't simply export a port to these systems. I kinda thought that was the big thing about game engines like that and Unity. That they can port more easily as long as the hardware can perform. I don't expect UE4 can magically make Bloodstained compile and work on a smart phone, but I would expect the engine to be able to get stuff to Linux. What do I know though, as Mac isn't known for first releases of games for a reason. Not to poop all over Mac, but I don't exactly see gaming rigs for Macs and games launching the same day for both. Maybe it's because I just am not part of that world though. Yeah, about that... it's never that simple. I mean, in theory it is, but you never know how the different hardware is going to react to your code until you do a build. Then there's debugging and testing that needs to be done on each platform. The bugs are not necessarily going to be the same, and the more features you have (and the game was crammed with features because of the stretch goals), the more that debugging you need to do on each platform to ensure parity. My guess (it's no more than a guess) is that they realized at some point that ensuring parity on those two platforms was going to prohibitively delay the game on the lead platforms.
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Post by dareka on Dec 28, 2018 2:24:50 GMT -6
Personally? I'd be more worried if they hadn't cancelled those ports. I'm not particularly disappointed by this update, sparse though it may be. If anything, confirmation that Wayforward is also providing assistance with background assets and lighting - two of the things we complained about during the beta feedback - further shows the devs got the community's feedback loud and clear. We're nearing the home stretch ... it's just a matter of time now.
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Post by dareka on Nov 29, 2018 22:46:43 GMT -6
I can't comment about WayForward because I've never played any of their games but more help is always welcome. They're an American game developer that's been working on 2D side-scrollers for nearly 30 years now. wayforward.comThey're a company that basically makes 2D games por amor al arte - because they love to make them, not because they'll turn a profit. So, basically, to pay the bills and keep the company afloat, they do licensed stuff (think Barbie, My Little Pony, etc.) they'd never do given an actual choice on the matter, but they always find a way to sneak in 2D masterpieces like Contra 4 and the Shantae series in between. Anyhow, they're not only great devs, they're likely IGA fans themselves and they know a thing or two about making great 2D games on a budget, since they're the original indy developer, so to speak. I'm really looking forward (no pun intended) learning more about their involvement when the time is right!
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Post by dareka on Nov 29, 2018 13:38:03 GMT -6
This is honestly FANTASTIC news. Wayforward know their $hit. They are arguably the premier developers of 2D sidescroller action games in the world, and one of the few that know how to develop interesting stages as opposed to just bosses. I don't know in what area or capacity they're working on, but whatever it is, in can only be good news for the project. They developed my favorite 2D action game of all time, Contra 4 for the DS. It also gives me hope that some day we might see a Shantae outfit for Myriam, complete with a genie belly dance animation for transformation spells. Come on guys, make it happen!
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Post by dareka on Nov 3, 2018 0:27:02 GMT -6
I wonder if this outsourcing model will really work... It's a model that's lot older and more mainstream than you'd imagine - but IGA wasn't used to having to rely on it this much, for a project of this scale.
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