anonthemouse
Loyal Familiar
[TI2]What lies in wait behind the walls?
Posts: 161
inherit
1770
0
Jun 28, 2023 2:03:14 GMT -6
149
anonthemouse
[TI2]What lies in wait behind the walls?
161
Dec 7, 2016 4:34:32 GMT -6
December 2016
anonthemouse
|
Post by anonthemouse on May 7, 2020 12:40:42 GMT -6
All right, let me preface this by saying that, honestly, I should have expected this. Guest characters in Castlevania games have always been this way. You get a character with their own moveset, but they start off powerful and you really just play around with them. That's...fine...mostly. However, we had to wait a long time for Zangetsu. More than that, it was given more hype and billing than just "here's an extra toy you can play with". It was billed as a major feature of the game, and a mode in its own right. What's there...well, it's lacklustre. It doesn't have that spark that I'm looking for, and far from reigniting my spark to play a game that I love, it snuffed it out.
Zangetsu at the very least deserved to get a story. Seeing either the story of the game through Zangetsu's eyes, or an entirely new story that picks up after the game ends (less likely), would have given playing as Zangetsu a sense of purpose, and a sense of discovery. For someone who's gotten all the achievements and seen all the map, the current Zangetsu Mode is sorely lacking that. You can get basically anywhere from the start of the game, and Zangetsu is only unlocked post True Ending. Yes, you do still have the ability to level up, but there's two problems with that. First, on the critical path you start overpowered and can easily gain enough levels to stay that way. If you take advantage of your mobility to get to sequence break, you'll run into enemies that give you trouble unless you level up some, but that still just feels like grinding...it's busywork. As Zangetsu, the game becomes a big playground with nothing to really do in it. Nowhere emphasizes this more than Arantville, an empty ghost town without even the ability to talk to NPCs, it was there that I realized just how little interest I had in just going wherever I wanted and steamrolling. I'd already done that as endgame Miriam, and there it had a purpose. Miriam could actually use the money I collected, could craft items with enemy drops, and power up shards. Zangetsu doesn't need to do any of that, and without the thread of story to tie things together, it all just filled me with a profound sense of ennui and borderline nihilism. Nothing I do matters, so why do anything at all?
It's a real shame, because there was a lot of potential to do things with Zangetsu. If you have him run a parallel story, there's plenty of chances to make that work. We know he was doing things while Miriam was on her own journey. There's even times where we're really left to wonder what he was up to. It would have been great to not just go through the game with his moves, but see the world through his eyes. Not to mention gameplay. Even with what a badass he is, there could have been progression, or at least some puzzles. Let's say that you didn't want to gate some of his abilities in his mode. You could still present him with unique challenges and paths to open. For instance, that cannon wall on the critical path is already opened for him, but did you know he can still open the shortcut with the other cannon? His fire sword lights the fuse. Imagine if there had been obstacles that required different techniques to clear. For that matter, stop assuming that they had to front-load him and imagine if he had to unlock his elements instead. Killing bosses could have led to him gathering their shards. After all, the lore tells us that you don't have to be a shardbinder to collect the shards, only to absorb them. Dominique could have had Zangetsu bring her shards in exchange for rituals that would afford him greater control over his curse, thus unlocking more elemental powers. Maybe in addition to money, sets of common shards could have been turned in for stat upgrades to replace the HP and MP increasing items, or like food for Miriam. Even the alchemy system could have still been used for accessories and armour, not to mention consumables, which the game really ought to still have for Zangetsu.
Enemies still deal damage, and can still cause status effects. Why is healing not a thing Zangetsu does? Why is a "you have all movement abilities, but you can't heal" mode not just a difficulty option or challenge, instead of being tied to a character? Especially a character that is not particularly difficult. All of this makes me feel like this content was not very well thought out. It's playable, and it works, but as I said before, it feels as lifeless as the empty environments left behind by gutting out content. (Seriously, not even enemy placements or upgrade items where things used to be?) The experience is all surface level, with nothing underneath.
|
|
inherit
754
0
Sept 15, 2023 18:05:12 GMT -6
14
kirtap
23
Sept 13, 2015 20:44:22 GMT -6
September 2015
kirtap
|
Post by kirtap on May 7, 2020 13:02:10 GMT -6
Zangetsu doesn't get a story mode of any sort? I figured the reason he took so long was because they were adding a small side story. Oh well, lol I have to try him out. Maybe I'll still find him fun.
Edit: I mean yeah, there's the outbreak that started in March.
|
|
anonthemouse
Loyal Familiar
[TI2]What lies in wait behind the walls?
Posts: 161
inherit
1770
0
Jun 28, 2023 2:03:14 GMT -6
149
anonthemouse
[TI2]What lies in wait behind the walls?
161
Dec 7, 2016 4:34:32 GMT -6
December 2016
anonthemouse
|
Post by anonthemouse on May 7, 2020 13:07:23 GMT -6
Zangetsu doesn't get a story mode of any sort? I figured the reason he took so long was because they were adding a small side story. Oh well, lol I have to try him out. Maybe I'll still find him fun. Honestly, that's what I thought as well. It doesn't seem like the moveset should have taken all that long, especially when the animations were all done already. He does have a good moveset, and being able to change the elements on your sword is neat, though even there I find some quirks. Like that while you have his grappling hook as your fixed directional ability, there's also a triple shuriken projectile, and a spammable rising slash, making it redundant to use.
|
|
inherit
3790
0
May 12, 2020 23:57:00 GMT -6
6
nyeeeessss
32
Dec 25, 2019 12:22:40 GMT -6
December 2019
nyeeeessss
|
Post by nyeeeessss on May 7, 2020 14:59:49 GMT -6
From the sound of it, this is basically Richter mode ROTN Edition, you get a fun character to play as with a cool moveset, but he has no cutscenes or dialogue and they had to alter certain sections to make up for his lack of an inventory screen.
|
|
inherit
3694
0
May 14, 2020 8:37:20 GMT -6
1
axlhaze
6
Aug 5, 2019 20:24:25 GMT -6
August 2019
axlhaze
|
Post by axlhaze on May 7, 2020 23:41:07 GMT -6
I think it's a really fun Richter mode game type. If this was in the game from the start I think it would have been amazing.The fact that we waited so long for it does suck and of course anyone would prefer it to be a new story with scenes and stuff and a full inventory but they never said it would be. If the game would have been finished before release and had Zangetsu mode and 3rd character mode being just like it is now, the game would be a 10/10 and would have been chocked full of stuff to do and play. Like SOTN had Richter and Maria everyone would prefer if they had their own entire modes but no one really cares because it is what is. They have been like this in every igavania except for the Dawn of Sorrow one which was incredible and had the 3 characters and another story to go along with why they are fighting through the castle. I definitely dont hate it and am having fun going through it right now, I haven't played the game in months though and I imagine if it was still super fresh in my memory it wouldn't be as fun.
|
|
inherit
3567
0
Mar 23, 2023 21:55:12 GMT -6
25
aceearly1993
29
Jul 6, 2019 5:58:22 GMT -6
July 2019
aceearly1993
|
Post by aceearly1993 on May 8, 2020 3:47:32 GMT -6
The final boss in Zangetsu mode is actually an unique one and gives some unique dialogue, my only gripe is the level 1 mode (nightmare) being too damn merciless like player can only deal 13~15 damage per hit toward enemies in later area while most of them have tons of HP to tackle; yet to see one of the command moves works effectively versus airborne enemies
|
|
inherit
1679
0
Nov 13, 2020 16:09:58 GMT -6
120
EBBenjy
80
Jul 20, 2016 14:45:08 GMT -6
July 2016
ebbenjy
|
Post by EBBenjy on May 8, 2020 15:17:29 GMT -6
Is it really just Richter / Julius mode? There is no excuse why something that barebones should have been delayed for so long.
I was led to expect something much more significant than that.
Why is everything associated with this project such a communications disaster.
|
|
inherit
3775
0
Nov 16, 2021 17:29:18 GMT -6
9
Darnias
39
Nov 26, 2019 9:26:06 GMT -6
November 2019
darnias
|
Post by Darnias on May 9, 2020 6:02:57 GMT -6
|
|
inherit
3775
0
Nov 16, 2021 17:29:18 GMT -6
9
Darnias
39
Nov 26, 2019 9:26:06 GMT -6
November 2019
darnias
|
Post by Darnias on May 9, 2020 6:56:39 GMT -6
I think it's a really fun Richter mode game type. If this was in the game from the start I think it would have been amazing.The fact that we waited so long for it does suck and of course anyone would prefer it to be a new story with scenes and stuff and a full inventory but they never said it would be. If the game would have been finished before release and had Zangetsu mode and 3rd character mode being just like it is now, the game would be a 10/10 and would have been chocked full of stuff to do and play. Like SOTN had Richter and Maria everyone would prefer if they had their own entire modes but no one really cares because it is what is. They have been like this in every igavania except for the Dawn of Sorrow one which was incredible and had the 3 characters and another story to go along with why they are fighting through the castle. I definitely dont hate it and am having fun going through it right now, I haven't played the game in months though and I imagine if it was still super fresh in my memory it wouldn't be as fun. The Sisters Mode (Stella and Loretta) in Portrait of Ruin also have its own story. Joachim mode in Lament of Innocence barely can be considered to have a "story" (maybe Pumpkin mode too?). And there were originally 4 characters scheduled in Julius Mode of Dawn of Sorrow (the fourth character is Hammer)...
|
|
anonthemouse
Loyal Familiar
[TI2]What lies in wait behind the walls?
Posts: 161
inherit
1770
0
Jun 28, 2023 2:03:14 GMT -6
149
anonthemouse
[TI2]What lies in wait behind the walls?
161
Dec 7, 2016 4:34:32 GMT -6
December 2016
anonthemouse
|
Post by anonthemouse on May 10, 2020 14:57:58 GMT -6
I think that the biggest thing that sets up the disappointment for me, aside from the wait, is this;
For me, this doesn't feel like announcing just a small extra. Everything about the way that Zangetsu Mode was announced, and the game having extra playable characters in general, makes it feel like these modes are supposed to be a Big Deal. Just the voiced lines from David Hayter in the trailer set up an expectation for some kind of story. Plus, it was packed into an update with Randomizer. Now, I know some people probably like the randomizer mode, but I don't think it can be considered a full game mode either, and it's definitely not as major as the Roguelike Mode it replaced would have been. Honestly...in my opinion, the inclusion of a randomizer is just a bid to get this game more exposure on Twitch and Youtube. It's content creator bait, not something for the core audience. Which leaves me with the question of, if Zangetsu is just a sandbox mode, and Randomizer is just a gimmick, what was the "star" of this update? We were promised something major. They thought the update was a big enough deal to make a promotional trailer for. So why is it just filler content?
Also, there's the "Richter Mode" aspect. Now, as I said, I am well aware that's how guest characters have usually been handled in the past. Why do that here, though? In almost every aspect, Bloodstained has been an improvement on the formulas of the past. It's taken the best aspects of Iga's legacy, and refined them. Shouldn't this have been a chance to do more with extra characters? There have been extra character modes with their own story in Castlevania. Even in the tie-in game, Curse of the Moon, there was a story for playing as the other characters. So why does Zangetsu feel like such a huge step backwards, presenting content in the most minimal way like when the concept of bonus characters were first introduced, rather than embracing the best that the past has to offer, if not improving on it, the way the rest of the game does for the Castlevania formula?
|
|
exile
Loyal Familiar
Posts: 168
inherit
1786
0
May 11, 2020 15:50:55 GMT -6
183
exile
168
Dec 27, 2016 2:26:16 GMT -6
December 2016
exile
|
Post by exile on May 11, 2020 16:04:48 GMT -6
Anon, I sadly must agree. I'm not ripping the devs here, truly. I think Zangetsu was indeed designed to be a "fun toy," an extra, with the original release. Unfortunately, the whole Switch debacle threw this thing waaaayyy off track, and then they had to repurpose Zangetsu as something more than he was originally intended to be. If it was released along with the original game, or shortly thereafter, I would've thought, "cool." At this point, having max'd out everything on my Myriam and played through the game several times, there's just no incentive at all to use another character.
It's a shame, because he's well-designed and reasonably fun to play, but really feels like something a modder developed rather than a legitimate extra character. As you said, the game was begging for a little more substance--what exactly did Zangetsu do when he kept disappearing off into the castle? His moveset absolutely should've been unlocked through progress. "Hollow" is exactly how it felt to me, and at this point, I think I'll be moving on. I wish Iga, the devs, and the fans well. Perhaps we'll meet again in the future.
/salute
|
|
purifyweirdshard
Administrator
Administrator
Calling from Heaven
Posts: 3,789
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Example 2
inherit
Administrator
210
0
1
Oct 25, 2024 0:03:05 GMT -6
3,660
purifyweirdshard
Calling from Heaven
3,789
Jun 29, 2015 7:24:38 GMT -6
June 2015
purifyweirdsoul
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Example 2
|
Post by purifyweirdshard on May 11, 2020 16:17:33 GMT -6
I think there's much more weight given to this little bit of content than necessary. I barely touched the extra character modes in Castlevania games of the past, just fiddled with them a bit and knew they mostly weren't for me, as I was already satisfied and moving on. With the nature of the Kickstarter being how it is, and this as the first content being delivered after almost a year, pressure was on it to be amazing/standout when it's just a tiny portion of what we're to have.
Zangetsu/Randomizer was never going to really "turn things around" or save the game from the trouble it's had, to the people who see the game in monumentous amounts of trouble.
Zang/rando might not be what some of us want or enjoy. Maybe it is/was just the main game that did it for you, or it'll be everything done as a complete package that finally can let some people say "okay this is good now". Some of us should probably take a step back and look at things for what they are rather than Bloodstained needing to be saved from a status of failure. It mostly just has that in your headspace, and no single pieces of content out of 15 are going to change your mind if your approach to evaluate it is colored like that. Long story short, you might just need to play something else for a while, and come back to this when it seems like something is in it you want to do; if that happens. If not, totally fine - you probably already beat it.
|
|
anonthemouse
Loyal Familiar
[TI2]What lies in wait behind the walls?
Posts: 161
inherit
1770
0
Jun 28, 2023 2:03:14 GMT -6
149
anonthemouse
[TI2]What lies in wait behind the walls?
161
Dec 7, 2016 4:34:32 GMT -6
December 2016
anonthemouse
|
Post by anonthemouse on May 12, 2020 10:21:15 GMT -6
I think there's much more weight given to this little bit of content than necessary. I barely touched the extra character modes in Castlevania games of the past, just fiddled with them a bit and knew they mostly weren't for me, as I was already satisfied and moving on. With the nature of the Kickstarter being how it is, and this as the first content being delivered after almost a year, pressure was on it to be amazing/standout when it's just a tiny portion of what we're to have. I don't disagree that the content was given too much weight. However, I think at least part of the blame for this lies with the way the content was promoted. Giving the mode its own trailer and giving it special billing built it up as something big. Zangetsu/Randomizer was never going to really "turn things around" or save the game from the trouble it's had, to the people who see the game in monumentous amounts of trouble. Zang/rando might not be what some of us want or enjoy. Maybe it is/was just the main game that did it for you, or it'll be everything done as a complete package that finally can let some people say "okay this is good now". Some of us should probably take a step back and look at things for what they are rather than Bloodstained needing to be saved from a status of failure. It mostly just has that in your headspace, and no single pieces of content out of 15 are going to change your mind if your approach to evaluate it is colored like that. Long story short, you might just need to play something else for a while, and come back to this when it seems like something is in it you want to do; if that happens. If not, totally fine - you probably already beat it. This...I don't know where it's coming from. Bloodstained is far from a failure. I never said the game needed "saving" from any faults, or redeemed, or whatever else you want to call it. I don't believe anyone else here did either. That would be a ridiculous stance to take. Bloodstained is a great game (albeit with some...odd...balancing decisions at times). If anything, I'd say it's the fact that the base game is so good that makes the fact that Zangetsu Mode is so bare-bones feel so much more baffling. I feel like I'm being gaslighted here.
|
|
purifyweirdshard
Administrator
Administrator
Calling from Heaven
Posts: 3,789
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Example 2
inherit
Administrator
210
0
1
Oct 25, 2024 0:03:05 GMT -6
3,660
purifyweirdshard
Calling from Heaven
3,789
Jun 29, 2015 7:24:38 GMT -6
June 2015
purifyweirdsoul
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Example 2
|
Post by purifyweirdshard on May 12, 2020 11:13:01 GMT -6
anonthemouse No, I'm not directing this at you specifically. I actually cross-posted this between here and a Facebook group I'm in charge of to shotgun a response to all of the doom and gloom about Zangetsu and randomizer - and of the general feeling that the game is dead, the content took too long and doesn't matter now, it's not good enough, doesn't revitalize the game enough, whatever. I don't the time or ability to respond to all of those things individually and to individuals anymore, so this is how I went about it, just picking one of the threads here. Could have gone in one of the other ones about him and the release, but this one was conveniently focusing on the topic in the title.
|
|
Seta
New Blood
Xbox One User
Posts: 77
inherit
3695
0
Aug 6, 2019 18:32:42 GMT -6
56
Seta
Xbox One User
77
Aug 5, 2019 22:57:58 GMT -6
August 2019
seta
|
Post by Seta on May 12, 2020 11:18:53 GMT -6
I think that the biggest thing that sets up the disappointment for me, aside from the wait, is this; [Zangetstu Trailer] For me, this doesn't feel like announcing just a small extra. Everything about the way that Zangetsu Mode was announced, and the game having extra playable characters in general, makes it feel like these modes are supposed to be a Big Deal. Just the voiced lines from David Hayter in the trailer set up an expectation for some kind of story. Plus, it was packed into an update with Randomizer. Now, I know some people probably like the randomizer mode, but I don't think it can be considered a full game mode either, and it's definitely not as major as the Roguelike Mode it replaced would have been. Honestly...in my opinion, the inclusion of a randomizer is just a bid to get this game more exposure on Twitch and Youtube. It's content creator bait, not something for the core audience. Which leaves me with the question of, if Zangetsu is just a sandbox mode, and Randomizer is just a gimmick, what was the "star" of this update? We were promised something major. They thought the update was a big enough deal to make a promotional trailer for. So why is it just filler content? Also, there's the "Richter Mode" aspect. Now, as I said, I am well aware that's how guest characters have usually been handled in the past. Why do that here, though? In almost every aspect, Bloodstained has been an improvement on the formulas of the past. It's taken the best aspects of Iga's legacy, and refined them. Shouldn't this have been a chance to do more with extra characters? There have been extra character modes with their own story in Castlevania. Even in the tie-in game, Curse of the Moon, there was a story for playing as the other characters. So why does Zangetsu feel like such a huge step backwards, presenting content in the most minimal way like when the concept of bonus characters were first introduced, rather than embracing the best that the past has to offer, if not improving on it, the way the rest of the game does for the Castlevania formula? Honestly seeing the Zangetstu trailer was what made me look into buying the game, then learning it was going to be 2 players sealed the deal on my pre-order Call me sexist but i had no interest in playing as a chick on my initial playthrough Maybe if i really liked the game i'd eventually level her up along with all available characters for more options but still not what i picked most of the time The way things worked out i do feel like they hit me with false advertismentThe video made me believe he'd be playable on launch or shortly after My plan was to gift the game to friends and be a "samurai main" So far aside from buying the game and DLC i gifted it to friends with the iga pack for them as well in hopes to fund more content When Zangetstu wasn't available at launch i decided to 100% Miriam to pass the time until my "real" character arrived Knowing what i do if i could go back in time i don't think i would have bothered Even if two player mode drops now i wouldn't want to play as Miram(i know shallow) so to me the bigger waste wasn't my money, it was my time Part of me wonders if sales would have been effected and by how much if they didn't release a Zangetstu trailer back then Zangetstu wasn't about "saving the game" but making me feel like i finally got what i was waiting for aside from 2 player mode
|
|
inherit
2838
0
Aug 11, 2021 14:51:18 GMT -6
78
rav4ishing
179
Jul 13, 2018 11:54:26 GMT -6
July 2018
rav4ishing
|
Post by rav4ishing on May 16, 2020 23:32:45 GMT -6
Agreed about the trailer...it honestly made us think he would have had a separate campaign all together.
|
|
inherit
3632
0
Apr 4, 2022 14:14:31 GMT -6
30
phantasos
23
Jul 21, 2019 7:23:09 GMT -6
July 2019
phantasos
|
Post by phantasos on May 23, 2020 5:22:26 GMT -6
I like how you justify your entire post with what you should've expected in the the first line to bitch incessantly about a standard extra mode. I can't, for the life of me, understand why a game that went through so many development hurdles which is rested on Castlevania tradition is expected to be this grand, larger than life mode where the game needs to have a bunch of extra content. It was never was advertised as that and surprise, surprise, it's exactly what they said it was. If you thought otherwise, you just have to look at the mirror to see who fucked up. Bloodstained fucked up on a bunch of stuff, mainly communication which is mostly on 505 Games part. This isn't one of them. The "false advertising" shit that some people are coming out is hilarious. Every game is a semi-finished product if you gauge it by what it ended up cutting. Name any game ever made and you'll always find cut content in some way, shape or form, Iga's metroidvanias included. Bloodstained has more content than most Metroidvanias which thrived on recycled assets. It's fucking inane to say that this is "semi-completed" even if it's obvious it lost steam by the end. At this point this is less legit criticism direct at the game and more emotionally charged pedantic nitckpicking.
|
|
anonthemouse
Loyal Familiar
[TI2]What lies in wait behind the walls?
Posts: 161
inherit
1770
0
Jun 28, 2023 2:03:14 GMT -6
149
anonthemouse
[TI2]What lies in wait behind the walls?
161
Dec 7, 2016 4:34:32 GMT -6
December 2016
anonthemouse
|
Post by anonthemouse on May 23, 2020 9:44:36 GMT -6
I like how you justify your entire post with what you should've expected in the the first line to bitch incessantly about a standard extra mode. I like how you come in a week after this thread is dead, with a New Blood account, and try to throw weight around like you're some big shot or in any way relevant. Very brave of you.
|
|
jlgo
New Blood
Posts: 35
inherit
1850
0
Feb 21, 2021 18:25:52 GMT -6
5
jlgo
35
Mar 30, 2017 15:45:55 GMT -6
March 2017
jlgo
|
Post by jlgo on May 24, 2020 16:50:04 GMT -6
I stopped playing after I saw there was nobody in town and there was nothing special about this mode. This Zangetsu mode isn't bad or good just plain disappointing, just like plain yogurt. This Zangetsu mode should of had been added within the game not almost after a year of the release of the game. About 95% of the people are dissapointed so you are not alone.
I can bet IGA is pissed at his team. Moderators should stay out of this coversation since they are too BIAS.
|
|
purifyweirdshard
Administrator
Administrator
Calling from Heaven
Posts: 3,789
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Example 2
inherit
Administrator
210
0
1
Oct 25, 2024 0:03:05 GMT -6
3,660
purifyweirdshard
Calling from Heaven
3,789
Jun 29, 2015 7:24:38 GMT -6
June 2015
purifyweirdsoul
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Example 2
|
Post by purifyweirdshard on May 24, 2020 17:52:15 GMT -6
I can bet IGA is pissed at his team. Moderators should stay out of this coversation since they are too BIAS. Nah I have every right to speak, sorry lol. To be clear if someone isn't informed, I'm a fan volunteer. I'm not going to remove myself from the conversation just because I care about the project a lot. Also, about the cut content thing, it's true - we just know much more about RotN's cut content because we've had a look inside the game's development for its entire dev cycle. Iga's last game like this, for instance (OoE), we only knew that game existed period a few months before it was released. We had a long look behind the curtain for the whole way, were given some inches, and tried to take or demanded miles with RotN's dev. Just like this above example where on the forum we encourage criticism to be spoken and heard - it doesn't mean that positivity is thrown away to silence. I thought Zangetsu was boring too until I got about halfway through Hard mode and it got more challenging. Beating the final boss (which is not Bael if you didn't know) was a pretty legit challenge. He does get more than Richter mode since he levels up, so it's more like Albus mode from OoE - which itself is an improvement on all the other single character modes from the other games. I certainly do think that Dawn's Julius Mode is better than Zangetsu, but I didn't expect that anyway since it was just him.
|
|