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Post by Darnias on May 26, 2020 9:01:02 GMT -6
I like how you justify your entire post with what you should've expected in the the first line to bitch incessantly about a standard extra mode. I can't, for the life of me, understand why a game that went through so many development hurdles which is rested on Castlevania tradition is expected to be this grand, larger than life mode where the game needs to have a bunch of extra content. It was never was advertised as that and surprise, surprise, it's exactly what they said it was. If you thought otherwise, you just have to look at the mirror to see who fucked up. Bloodstained fucked up on a bunch of stuff, mainly communication which is mostly on 505 Games part. This isn't one of them. The "false advertising" shit that some people are coming out is hilarious. Every game is a semi-finished product if you gauge it by what it ended up cutting. Name any game ever made and you'll always find cut content in some way, shape or form, Iga's metroidvanias included. Bloodstained has more content than most Metroidvanias which thrived on recycled assets. It's fucking inane to say that this is "semi-completed" even if it's obvious it lost steam by the end. At this point this is less legit criticism direct at the game and more emotionally charged pedantic nitckpicking. I knew numerous games included "'Iga's' metroidvanias" have contents were cut/unused/unfinished. RotN is a good and entertaining game, but RotN is not just some "pop up" game: it was initiated by the famous producer, it was pledged $5,545,991 by 64,867 backers and was the most funded video game ever on Kickstarter at that time. Players, especially backers have the right to expect more completed product. I defined RotN is a "semi-finished product" not only because it have some cut contents, but also because it has been developed for about 4 years with more than 5 millions dollars but only with such a low completion when it released so that they have to complete (or, "curtail") the remaining promised contents in the form of "Free DLC", and even with this low completion there are still a pile of glitches existed (as of update 1.10)... (Even if it's just a trivial "sync up version numbers" update, they didn’t launch in January as announced) Everyone has different criteria and experience, to me, RotN is "thrived on recycled assets" too. In some respect, you are right: this is less "legit criticism", but also not "more emotionally charged pedantic nitckpicking" - after all I'm not the one who discovered those unused stuff (I just found many glitches and knacks) - it's more "innuendo", moreover backers and players have the right to know what a semi-finished product they got. If the staff could "nitpicking" to their own product, then there won't be so many glitches for players to discover. And perhaps the staff need "nitpicking" players to discover the glitches so they can fix them - if they still want. |
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Post by Darnias on May 26, 2020 9:25:08 GMT -6
I think that the biggest thing that sets up the disappointment for me, aside from the wait, is this; [Zangetstu Trailer] For me, this doesn't feel like announcing just a small extra. Everything about the way that Zangetsu Mode was announced, and the game having extra playable characters in general, makes it feel like these modes are supposed to be a Big Deal. Just the voiced lines from David Hayter in the trailer set up an expectation for some kind of story. Plus, it was packed into an update with Randomizer. Now, I know some people probably like the randomizer mode, but I don't think it can be considered a full game mode either, and it's definitely not as major as the Roguelike Mode it replaced would have been. Honestly...in my opinion, the inclusion of a randomizer is just a bid to get this game more exposure on Twitch and Youtube. It's content creator bait, not something for the core audience. Which leaves me with the question of, if Zangetsu is just a sandbox mode, and Randomizer is just a gimmick, what was the "star" of this update? We were promised something major. They thought the update was a big enough deal to make a promotional trailer for. So why is it just filler content? Also, there's the "Richter Mode" aspect. Now, as I said, I am well aware that's how guest characters have usually been handled in the past. Why do that here, though? In almost every aspect, Bloodstained has been an improvement on the formulas of the past. It's taken the best aspects of Iga's legacy, and refined them. Shouldn't this have been a chance to do more with extra characters? There have been extra character modes with their own story in Castlevania. Even in the tie-in game, Curse of the Moon, there was a story for playing as the other characters. So why does Zangetsu feel like such a huge step backwards, presenting content in the most minimal way like when the concept of bonus characters were first introduced, rather than embracing the best that the past has to offer, if not improving on it, the way the rest of the game does for the Castlevania formula? Honestly seeing the Zangetstu trailer was what made me look into buying the game, then learning it was going to be 2 players sealed the deal on my pre-order Call me sexist but i had no interest in playing as a chick on my initial playthrough Maybe if i really liked the game i'd eventually level her up along with all available characters for more options but still not what i picked most of the time The way things worked out i do feel like they hit me with false advertismentThe video made me believe he'd be playable on launch or shortly after My plan was to gift the game to friends and be a "samurai main" So far aside from buying the game and DLC i gifted it to friends with the iga pack for them as well in hopes to fund more content When Zangetstu wasn't available at launch i decided to 100% Miriam to pass the time until my "real" character arrived Knowing what i do if i could go back in time i don't think i would have bothered Even if two player mode drops now i wouldn't want to play as Miram(i know shallow) so to me the bigger waste wasn't my money, it was my time Part of me wonders if sales would have been effected and by how much if they didn't release a Zangetstu trailer back then Zangetstu wasn't about "saving the game" but making me feel like i finally got what i was waiting for aside from 2 player mode According to IGA's interview Gebel was supposed to be the protagonist. Btw I presume the 3rd playable character is probably Gebel. |
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Post by Seta on Jun 3, 2020 0:06:46 GMT -6
I can't, for the life of me, understand why a game that went through so many development hurdles which is rested on Castlevania tradition is expected to be this grand, larger than life mode where the game needs to have a bunch of extra content. It was never was advertised as that and surprise, surprise, it's exactly what they said it was. Not everyone has paid attention to everything they did and to all the news from the very begining Some of us like me only saw the Zangetstu trailer and brought the game based off of that and another one that said 2 player mode was on the way. The consumer should not have to do extra research online to confirm things the trailers seem to allude to, the commercial should not be misleadingThey didn't have to make a full blown commercial for Zangetstu before the game was released only to give him such a lame mode. Did they spend more advertising Zangetstu than they did on the characters gameplay mode? Maybe not but it seems like it's possible Zangetsu Mode didn't have to be more than what it was, but the fact they seemed to advertise it as larger than life only to give us a throw away is what's wrong That's why me and probably others feel that it was falsely advertised, if they didn't make the trailer like that no one would have cared if it was a throw away The way they portrayed the trailer on top of the fact it was released before the main game is what's upsetting and it's what got my pre order |
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Post by XombieMike on Jun 5, 2020 10:01:08 GMT -6
Hey, we need to dial back the hostility here about %80. Healthy debates are welcome, but disrespectful arguments are against the rules. Any more of this business gets a ban. Fair warning given and offending posts are being moved to a private moderation area.
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Post by anonthemouse on Jun 8, 2020 12:06:48 GMT -6
I'm going to assume one of my posts was among those moved, even though I can still see it. I apologize for losing my temper and rising to bait.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 8, 2020 14:40:15 GMT -6
I'm going to assume one of my posts was among those moved, even though I can still see it. I apologize for losing my temper and rising to bait. No, Mike didn't move any of yours - no users including the author are be able to see posts that are moved. To speak on the issue myself, I think it's a reach to say that the trailer is "false advertising" per se, but it was timed oddly. I think the intention certainly was to have him out much earlier, but as we know, that didn't work out. There's nothing in the trailer that is not in the mode itself, but some assumption could be made if you didn't already know from past games about story, equipment, more dialogue, etc - because the trailer and information given out did not explicitly say "hello this is our new thing coming, but it specifically does not have xyz things in it btw". That's not how you would market anything, though. You show the best of what something has, which it did - not what it doesn't have. Bloodstained in general has had a lot of expectations drawn beyond what was actually shown to its followers, all along. Probably the biggest and most obvious example is how it was and still is so often penned as being "the spiritual successor to SotN" (this is what almost any news outlet will call it), which places on it the weight of everyone's nostalgia for that game. The intention was to deliver another game like Iga's that began with SotN and ran all the way through OoE, not to dethrone SotN's nostalgia throne - but that is exactly the space so many people put it in. There are just so many gamers out there who have *only* played SotN and have had a clamoring for years for "SotN 2" or a remake, and wanted this to be it, and so Bloodstained was pushed to at least address that as much as it could. For some it succeeded, and others not, and for most this itch will never be scratched. |
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Post by hyugakojiro on Jun 11, 2020 6:11:20 GMT -6
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Post by Darnias on Jun 12, 2020 7:02:48 GMT -6
Zangetsu can't pass through bosses those without touching damage with Backstep and have stuck with "Form is Emptiness" (unless bosses makes some specific actions) . I'm not sure is this a setting or a glitch. It looks like that playable version Miriam doesn't bleed? (but boss version does) |
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Post by hyugakojiro on Jun 12, 2020 15:56:42 GMT -6
It looks like that playable version Miriam doesn't bleed? (but boss version does) I don't think I remember the playable Miriam ever bleeding other than with the Iron Maiden as seen with Zangetsu right now so hopefully it can get fixed. |
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Post by Seta on Jun 14, 2020 0:08:46 GMT -6
There's nothing in the trailer that is not in the mode itself Except at the 9 second mark when Zangetstu is shown walking in during a cinematic saying "So the burden falls on me after all" This was before the main game was released so we didn't know him walking in was a cinematic that happens when playing as Miriam Why was that part of the cinematic even shown despite not being in Zangetstu mode other than to mislead us into thinking Zangetstu mode would be more than it was? |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 14, 2020 1:36:35 GMT -6
There's nothing in the trailer that is not in the mode itself Except at the 9 second mark when Zangetstu is shown walking in during a cinematic saying "So the burden falls on me after all" This was before the main game was released so we didn't know him walking in was a cinematic that happens when playing as Miriam Why was that part of the cinematic even shown despite not being in Zangetstu mode other than to mislead us into thinking Zangetstu mode would be more than it was? I think it's fair to say that most fans familiar enough with the game to have seen the launch trailer for that DLC would have seen or played the beta at one point, which has that cutscene in it. If someone remembered anything at all from that, it was probably that scene since it ends right after that encounter. It was a good call to use stuff from the beta or other trailers, too, because otherwise you're spoiling content for the main game or indeed leading people to think that it's unique to Zangetsu (he does have a scene unique to him, though, at the very end vs his final boss). That beta scene was a big deal at the time for another reason as well, because it was the first time we heard David's voice in the game. Now, sure it's entirely possible that someone only started following the game right when the trailers hit and didn't know about what was in the beta - but I'm not sure that would be the fault of the developer either. It was pretty old news by launch, almost exactly a year prior (June 2018). It did its job very well as a trailer, them using what was already available and cutting it together + relevant voice lines. Being misled by it seems more of a combination of hype, not being informed and making an assumption. I would agree that the mode isn't as exciting as the trailer, but not in a specific way where they were misleading about it. That again just means it was a good advertisement |
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Post by anonthemouse on Jun 15, 2020 21:39:28 GMT -6
Well, personally I think it was setting expectations high to have a trailer at all.
In my mind, at least, trailers are reserved for substantial and noteworthy content. Were I making a game, I wouldn't create a trailer for a mode that changed everything to joke dialogue or for a challenge difficulty mode, for example. Those things may change the way the game is played, but they wouldn't represent substantial new content. That's how I see Zangetsu mode. Yes, it adds content, but it isn't substantial content. Had it just been given a patch note, like Boss Rush and Speedrun Mode, it wouldn't have felt disappointing. It would have been implicitly understood that it was just a minor bonus mode. By giving Zangetsu his own full-on trailer, the implication was that it would be a major content update, which would naturally lead people to assume story content.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 16, 2020 1:19:22 GMT -6
The main reason it got its own trailer is because of the star power of the voice actor. It was an important move in getting attention for the game/reminding people that's who played the character. Very effective word of mouth, and again strong advertising/marketing. As fans, we knew what modes and content were coming, they didn't have to tell us. However - "woah, there's a samurai Solid Snake in this game?" - that's big news, especially it being a come-uppance of a property that seemed to be sticking it to Konami, who also left Hayter out in the cold.
That's the kind of thing you want people to know about
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Post by anonthemouse on Jun 16, 2020 19:34:47 GMT -6
Looked at that way...well, either 505 or Artplay kind of left Mr. Hayter out in the cold too, then, didn't they? I mean, using his name to generate extra publicity after his involvement in the game is ended? As you point out, the trailer got extra mileage and attention out of his name, but he wasn't brought back to voice any additional lines, was he? The essentially asset-flip nature of the mode means that they paid him once and benefited twice. If I really wanted to promote, "We didn't screw this VA like other company did.", that's not exactly how I'd go about it, personally. I'd want the name I was using for star power to actually have a starring role. A bigger focus than just, "Oh yeah, he cameos a couple times."
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 17, 2020 16:11:44 GMT -6
I don't know if I can agree it makes sense to look at it that way? Besides Miriam, he's probably the most important character in Bloodstained. The Zangetsu clan is the new Belmont family. The trailer is just as much for letting people know he's that in the main game as it is for his own mode.
How do you mean they benefited "twice"? The game hadn't launched yet, unless you mean once from the Kickstarter campaign and once from the actual launch of the game - but those aren't two separate products to "bring him back" for something. It's a "one thing".
It's the same as if I announce I have a game that has...The Rock as a voice actor in it or something. I open pre-orders on it back then, but there isn't even really a game yet and not everyone bites yet, some people don't even think it will exist or that it will probably suck, and it gets pushed to the back of everyone's mind until 4 years later when it's actually coming out. I make a trailer this time instead of a .jpeg and some text about The Rock being in my game at launch, advertising those same contributions he had promised he would do for me that were now performed by him. He tweets it out himself, we both benefit, everyone's happy and surprised/reminded that The Rock actually doing things happened and the game (game x1 + said contributions) is real.
I don't get how that can be as seen as "left out in the cold" or we did him wrong or something. There seems to usually be a reach here.
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Post by Darnias on Jun 17, 2020 16:30:30 GMT -6
Personally I think whether there is a plot in bonus character mode or not, they have their own merits and demerits.
*With plot
Merits: Expanded/Filled the story of the game, perhaps more empathy/enjoyment while playing.
Demerits: According to plot may impose some restrictions on the gameplay (like you can't fight Menace in Julius Mode in DoS as well as you can't reach the top stairs & Throne Room and fight Dracula in Sisters Mode in PoR)
*No plot or almost no plot
Merits: Relatively less restrictions on gameplay (depends on its programming).
Demerits: Perhaps relatively less empathy/enjoyment while playing.
According to the dialogue before last battle maybe Zangetsu Mode was designed to be a continuation of Bad/Fallen Ending of Main Story (like Julius Mode in DoS), but was greatly simplified in the end.
I understand the mood of players those who wants Zangetsu Mode gets a story, especially the trailer acts as if he will have his own storyline; but from another perspective: if Zangetsu have his own storyline (whether parallel with Miriam's or continue with Bad Ending) and the staff take the slot rigorously then probably there will be more bosses that Zangetsu can't fight in terms of story...
Btw it looks like the range of "Restrain" in the trailer is farther than current version (more like the boss version). I can't understand why the range was reduced, hope it will be extended/restored in future update.
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Post by anonthemouse on Jun 19, 2020 6:19:24 GMT -6
purifyweirdshard - I was on my school's debate team. Bear in mind that a lot of the time, I am deliberately taking the role of the contrarian for the sake of discussion.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 19, 2020 13:48:19 GMT -6
purifyweirdshard - I was on my school's debate team. Bear in mind that a lot of the time, I am deliberately taking the role of the contrarian for the sake of discussion. uggggh. You mean you're telling me, you don't even necessarily believe the things you're posting, it's to push a discussion? I hate that lol. I read it as "bear in mind, I am absolutely wasting your time". I am not someone that enjoys arguing a point or discussing things - instead, I want to see the root of someone's issue and sort it out with them and find solutions. I find too often that issues with games like this come from a place of emotion or not having certain facts, so if I can calm them down or find out what information they didn't have, a lot of the time that works. There are some very obscure pieces of info related to the campaign, after all. I also know that a lot of people lurk and read these things, so they're seeing two other real people talk out their issue in a genuine manner and everyone can benefit from that. But...if it's just kicking along something that you don't feel yourself and I have to keep dealing with that, nah I'm good. Or maybe someone else can pick that up. I want to address the sincere issues someone has with something and then go about my real job haha. I do worry that if I leave it alone completely, though, no one else is going to show up to challenge these things because so few are going to stop by to randomly say they had a positive experience with something or they see a dev's side in it. That's generally not how the internet works, not in a "go out of your way to get there" place like this. Sometimes if a guy who thinks everything is good actually wanders in, they're appalled by being surrounded with complaints and what they post is short, dismissive and perhaps even insulting to the others and has to be moderated, as you saw. Good on you for the furtherance of discussion in the sake of enlightenment and all that, often it's respectable and important, but I can't stay in that. I think it also should be announced and clear that you're doing devil's advocate. You guys stay safe and play something fun. |
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Post by Yän on Jun 19, 2020 18:21:25 GMT -6
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Post by anonthemouse on Jun 21, 2020 3:58:13 GMT -6
It's not necessarily that I'm being insincere. I definitely do feel that the marketing was mismanaged, and that the mode didn't offer all that it could have. My intent in being contrarian is simply to point out that, while it's easy to offer excuses/explanations, there's more than one way to look at those things. It's up to a good marketing team to take those possibilities into consideration, and to the development team to make certain that marketing team understands the scope of content, and how high they should be setting people's expectations.
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