BloodyTears92
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Post by BloodyTears92 on Dec 27, 2018 20:07:24 GMT -6
I had a feeling Wayforward were doing more than bug crushing, helping to refine the game in other ways. Still, this is good news, if asset creation is mostly done and they're just fine-tuning things now I hope this points towards a Q1-Q2 release.
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Post by Galamoth on Dec 27, 2018 20:29:38 GMT -6
I'd completely forgotten there even were supposed to be Mac & Linux versions of this game, originally. This news came out of left-field, but thankfully it doesn't affect me.
I understand the paranoia that others might be feeling about version cancellations, but I don't think any more are going to happen.
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Post by dareka on Dec 28, 2018 2:24:50 GMT -6
Personally? I'd be more worried if they hadn't cancelled those ports. I'm not particularly disappointed by this update, sparse though it may be. If anything, confirmation that Wayforward is also providing assistance with background assets and lighting - two of the things we complained about during the beta feedback - further shows the devs got the community's feedback loud and clear. We're nearing the home stretch ... it's just a matter of time now.
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Post by Enkeria on Dec 28, 2018 6:25:23 GMT -6
RichterBI remember that fish from Guardian Legend! YänYou can still use Bootcamp, if that still exist on Mac to start up and manage PC files. Linux however, I dunno. Linux seems very advanced for the right user, and maybe fans will make so Bloodstained can run on it. Who knows.
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Post by warthecheese on Dec 28, 2018 6:40:43 GMT -6
写真で見ると日本人(?)のスタッフさんも多いんですね。応援してます!
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Post by djtanng on Dec 28, 2018 11:42:30 GMT -6
Anyone else notice all the Xbox controllers in the pics, as well as a piece of paper with part of the map layout visible?
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Post by Cale on Dec 28, 2018 12:12:02 GMT -6
Is Bootcamp free? Edit: Also the Windows OS free?
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Post by lrs121 on Dec 28, 2018 13:56:25 GMT -6
From the Linux front. Wine is horrible to use to play most games, particularly more modern ones. Yes, it can be done, but there are a lot of caveats and the experience is rarely, if ever, as good (read as terrible) as native platform support. Just imagine bad asset rendering,e.g. a broken menu layout, because the game uses some obscure/undocumented DirectX API or quirk or it uses a newer graphics technology that Wine hasn't implemented or is a work in progress; looking at you DX12 and Windows Vulkan.
On a more related note. While I am saddened to see them dropping support but if it means that there is a slight chance that the Windows and other platform versions will be more polished. Then I can live with that... for now. Should the opportunity occur, I would love to purchase (re-purchase?) a Linux version/port a couple of years down the road. I'll just borrow my wife's gaming laptop or play the Switch version in the mean time.
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Post by RichterB on Dec 28, 2018 15:03:05 GMT -6
RichterB I remember that fish from Guardian Legend! Ok, yeah, didn't immediately come to mind for me, but I could see that, too.
I'm interested to see what's going on with this seemingly new enemy? All those dangling parts...it'd be awesome if Miriam could hang from them during a boss battle or something. But that's probably beyond the scope of this game.
Interesting to see the first boss on the screen here. Are they still tweaking it? That'd be great. Good as it was, I wrote in the feedback it could use a little elaboration on one of its attack patterns.
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Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Dec 28, 2018 15:29:26 GMT -6
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Post by macgyver on Dec 28, 2018 18:53:28 GMT -6
I sincerely hope that the developers will reconsider their decision to not support Linux and macOS. I’m a seasoned Mac user, and tools like crossover, wine, VMware, parallels, and bootcamp are no stranger to me, but boy howdy, is it a crapshoot being able to predict whether the game will run well from start to finish and how easily one can get it installed, especially when you are virtualizing. I sincerely hope that there is enough of an outcry that the developers will reconsider supporting these operating systems. Otherwise, I am left hoping and praying that I will find the time to sit down and get things configured just right so that I can hopefully play the game on my Mac in a virtualized environment. Not ideal, by far. And certainly not ideal for somebody who paid for one of the upper ends of the spectrum, tier-wise.
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Post by rodolforg on Dec 28, 2018 19:14:56 GMT -6
I'm a Linux-only user since 2002. I don't own XBox neither PS4, but I did own WiiU.
I'm not used to "tricks" to play windows-only games. I just don't play them (because I don't care).
I backed this project due to WiiU release promise and I'd like to play this game style again. Switched to Linux when the Nintendo console version was (understandingly) canceled.
Now Linux and Mac was canceled due to bad design/platform/programming choices, and I hope you refund me – that would be to show some respect to whom believed in your project. I'd prefer help to fund Shenmue III if I wasn't to play a backed game (just to know how would/will that game story go).
Seven promised plataforms while on campaing (Windows, Mac, Linux, WiiU, Vita, Xbox, PS). Only three left.
Disappointed.
FanGamer mail I received:
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Post by ssokolow on Dec 28, 2018 20:03:06 GMT -6
People are starting to receive this reply: If this is true and not just Fangamer being misinformed, then ArtPlay and 505 Games are willfully violating Kickstarter's Terms of Service. www.kickstarter.com/blog/accountability-on-kickstarterScrewing over customers is one thing. That power imbalance is well known... but even considering participating in breach-of-contract and related behaviours in a B2B relationship is a whole other level of not-to-be-trusted. I'm definitely putting 505 Games on my list of publishers to never buy from. (In fact, to play it safe, I'm putting 505 Games, ArtPlay, IGA, DICO, and WayForward on my blacklist until I have time to research further. If Kickstarter has taught me anything, it's to take a "guilty until proven innocent" approach to these sorts of situations.) ...and, to anyone who's trying to downplay Mac and/or Linux as being niche... it doesn't matter in the eyes of the law. I doubt you'd pooh-pooh it as much if they announced they were dropping all Windows and DRM-free offerings and switching to consoles only... and given the state of things in Japan in 2014, that's more likely than you'd think.) That said, Kickstarter has built up a reputation of not penalizing projects for violating their ToS, so, one of these days, I'm sure they're going to put one too many straws on that camel's back and get hit by a class action lawsuit. I haven't backed anything new in years though, sadly, I wised up after backing this.
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Enkeria
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Post by Enkeria on Dec 28, 2018 21:00:55 GMT -6
Cale Bootcamp was free when I used Mac many years ago. I wanted to play some old game on it, and it worked. djtanng Xbox controlers are used frequently even on PC gaming. Didn't take much peak at the images this time. Map is a surprise for me until I have fully expored it (or at least thought I have fully explored it). ssokolow Yes, research some more. I think the violation is only a thing during a campaign, not after its done / closed, I have no clue really. Because you know, there are a lot of placeholders in this and many other projects because they are usually pre-developed and hard to value. Many have already given the chance of a refund, this was however earlier.
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Post by ssokolow on Dec 28, 2018 21:10:27 GMT -6
ssokolow Yes, research some more. I think the violation is only a thing during a campaign, not after its done / closed, I have no clue really. Because you know, there are a lot of placeholders in this and many other projects because they are usually pre-developed and hard to value. Many have already given the chance of a refund, this was however earlier. Here is an excerpt from that Kickstarter URL I linked: I think that phrasing is pretty clear about the obligation not ending when the campaign closes.
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RichterB
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Post by RichterB on Dec 28, 2018 21:14:58 GMT -6
People are starting to receive this reply: ...and, to anyone who's trying to downplay Mac and/or Linux as being niche... it doesn't matter in the eyes of the law. I doubt you'd pooh-pooh it as much if they announced they were dropping all Windows and DRM-free offerings and switching to consoles only... and given the state of things in Japan in 2014, that's more likely than you'd think.) You make many valid points, and I know where you're coming from. But for the record, as much as I was interested in the project, I only backed it because it was promised on Wii U. I don't personally own a Switch (yet), and I still play the Wii U to this day. It's not obsolete or niche for me. Major Zelda: Breath of the Wild DLC was released for Wii U 12/7/17, not much more than a year ago today, and new stuff like Shovel Knight: King of Cards is coming next year in April 2019. (Much of the Switch's line-up is even made up of Wii U ports.) Even so, because of changing priorities, I lost out on the Wii U version of Bloodstained. And that made me upset. I didn't like it any more than Yooka-Laylee being cancelled for Wii U in 2016, which is how I backed it. At that point, I was given the opportunity to switch consoles, even to ones I didn't have, and I chose the Switch. That same kind of option is available to those who lost out in this latest cut. That being said, I recall I had the option to do a refund at the time the Wii U was cut--and it was the same for those who lost the Vita version up to a point (bundles were more complicated)--so that's a business issue there.
I'm sure making this game, with it's huge learning curve, has been draining funds. I guess what I'm saying is, there is an issue here, but it's not unique to Mac/Linux backers. I'm not downplaying the loss, because it's a loss Wii U and Vita backers already had, but since I'm still interested in the game and it's been so long, I feel the need to wait it out now on the console I was forced to switch to, even if that means I won't play it on launch. (Maybe that's for the best since Switch is supposed to get a re-version in 2019.)
I've heard it said in the past that Kickstarter is "not a pre-order." It's about getting a product, but how it ends up is entirely up to the makers. The rest of the transaction is on faith. At the end of the day, there will be a product you can receive for your money, so I'm not sure anything else can be done from what I've seen in the past. And, if the game does end up being successful, you may get a Mac/Linux release down the line. Yooka-Laylee had something like this, where it lost it's physical release when it was cancelled for Wii U, but it eventually got a physical release for all current consoles, even Nintendo's via the Switch. (Unfortunately, that came at a heavy surcharge for backers who'd already paid.) I think the strangest thing in all this is that backers can't get a refund, when it's been done in the past for Wii U and Vita backers (again, up to an extent).
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RichterB
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Post by RichterB on Dec 28, 2018 21:17:25 GMT -6
ssokolow Yes, research some more. I think the violation is only a thing during a campaign, not after its done / closed, I have no clue really. Because you know, there are a lot of placeholders in this and many other projects because they are usually pre-developed and hard to value. Many have already given the chance of a refund, this was however earlier. Here is an excerpt from that Kickstarter URL I linked: I think that phrasing is pretty clear about the obligation not ending when the campaign closes. Just saw your new post. I just want to reiterate from my previous one (because I was slow typing) that I think that means the product itself, not the method. In legalese, you'd still be getting the promised product: an IGAvania called Bloodstained, and any trinkets you may or may not have added on.
EDIT: The good news is, you've come to the right place. The reps on this forum are pretty good at getting back to customers eventually, so if/when they have something add/clarify, they'll put it in here. You may yet get a response in this very thread!
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Post by ssokolow on Dec 28, 2018 21:48:28 GMT -6
I'm sure making this game, with it's huge learning curve, has been draining funds. I guess what I'm saying is, there is an issue here, but it's not unique to Mac/Linux backers. I'm not downplaying the loss, because it's a loss Wii U and Vita backers already had, but since I'm still interested in the game and it's been so long, I feel the need to wait it out now on the console I was forced to switch to, even if that means I won't play it on launch. The platforms I have that are even minimally relevant are Linux, an original-version Wii, a 1000-series PSP, a "fat" Nintendo DS, and a couple of retro-gaming PCs that don't go newer than Windows XP. I have no plans to buy any newer consoles or Windows versions and one game isn't going to change that. I've heard it said in the past that Kickstarter is "not a pre-order." It's about getting a product, but how it ends up is entirely up to the makers. The rest of the transaction is on faith. I said it on Kickstarter and I'll say it again here. I know that and I was prepared for the eventuality that they might botch things so badly that no game came out at all, or if they ran low on money and made something greatly inferior to what they promised. This, on the other hand, is clearly a case of "They should have sufficient money to refund me... even if they have to give me an IOU to be repaid out of post-release sales." I never pay more than $5 US for Windows-only games and I take it as a personal affront when I get tricked into doing so. (again, up to an extent). Yeah, I heard about that over on /r/linux_gaming. A partial refund, months late is adding insult to injury. (Given that game keys cost nothing to "manufacture" and that a backer who receives only a partial refund is going to be unhappy enough to be unlikely to buy later, it's nothing but an unusually stupid way to rack up bad PR.) If they decide to give me a partial refund and it's not "Here's a gift key for a platform you didn't want and a partial refund for your trouble", I may start looking into more serious options. I doubt I can take a Japanese company to small claims court for the rest of it, but maybe 505 has a business presence in my jurisdiction that I could go after and, if not, I'll do my best to cost them at least that much in lost sales and bad PR. (And Bloodstained might become the first game I did pirate as a matter of principle, rather than not pirating as a matter of principle whether or not it even works in Wine on Linux.) In legalese, you'd still be getting the promised product: an IGAvania called Bloodstained, and any trinkets you may or may not have added on. Except that the promised product was an IGAvania called Bloodstained in DRM-free form for Linux. The law doesn't just let you nudge it to whatever interpretation is convenient for you.
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Post by Valtiel on Dec 28, 2018 22:59:13 GMT -6
I can understand cutting Mac and Linux support if only a small amount of people chose them in the survey and the devs decided it wasn't worth the costs. Perfectly reasonable. BUT they really should be offering refunds to the Mac/Linux backers. Some will have one of the supported platforms and will no doubt want to switch to that platform, but there's also sure to be some people who don't own a PS4/Xbone/Switch/Windows PC. It's a really shitty move to screw those people over by not refunding their money.
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RichterB
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Post by RichterB on Dec 28, 2018 23:24:03 GMT -6
I can understand cutting Mac and Linux support if only a small amount of people chose them in the survey and the devs decided it wasn't worth the costs. Perfectly reasonable. BUT they really should be offering refunds to the Mac/Linux backers. Some will have one of the supported platforms and will no doubt want to switch to that platform, but there's also sure to be some people who don't own a PS4/Xbone/Switch/Windows PC. It's a really shitty move to screw those people over by not refunding their money. I don't have any info one way or the other, but I'm starting to wonder if there weren't a significant chunk of Mac and Linux backers, because the response/backlash to this has seemingly been much stronger than it was for the Wii U and the Vita. (And one could say it's because those consoles were obsolete, but technically, at the time of the Kickstarter, they were not, so backers such as myself could have been much more vocal if we had so desired.)
I guess what I'm trying to figure out is why there is no refund option. Is it because the funds were already burned this late in development? Or is it due to some legal constraint this far out that prevents an easy, cost-effective method of getting the refunds out to backers?
People have a right to be upset. I hope ssokolow (who continues to make valid points) and those directly affected get further answers and I wish them luck with finding a satisfying resolution. While the devs have made this decision to ensure a product gets out in whatever timely manner can happen now, I'm not sure it's in their hands at this point with the partnerships they have made since the Kickstarter regarding the issue of refunds. Maybe Question or one of the other members in-the-know can clear this up further.
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