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Post by Cranium on Jun 2, 2018 16:49:03 GMT -6
My response was actually specifically aimed at Enkeria. I'm aware that my example doesn't fit, nor does Enkeria. I was going to mention that in my post but I could find a way to word it.
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Post by Cranium on Jun 2, 2018 16:51:18 GMT -6
whatzituyah So, first your complaint was that you deserve the content because you deserve all the content. Now you don't care about not getting all the content because you've deemed a skin insignificant enough to not even matter. So, if its so insignificant what makes you possibly think its an adequate replacement for the promised boss and weapon?
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Post by gunlord500 on Jun 2, 2018 16:58:57 GMT -6
Well, skins are qualitatively different than bosses or weapons, not merely quantitatively so. The Swordwhip affects how you interact with the game, and the a new boss is a new experience for players. Skins, on the other hand, are purely cosmetic and don't do anything beyond appearance. Thus, many people would feel excluded over not being able to enjoy a substantive experience in the game, while they would be willing to tolerate not having access to merely aesthetic content.
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Post by Cranium on Jun 2, 2018 17:05:43 GMT -6
Hardly seems like a fair compromise when you've literally just laid out why skins are not a quantitative trade for a boss and a weapon.
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Post by gunlord500 on Jun 2, 2018 17:12:51 GMT -6
Hardly seems like a fair compromise when you've literally just laid out why skins are not a quantitative trade for a boss and a weapon. Well, perhaps I should explain further. From what I understand, backers who want something to be exclusive are mainly interested in having a commemoration of their role in the project's development. Most of us (I paid 500 dollars, so you know I'm not being blase about this) want recognition and acknowledgement that our support was important. But the key word there is 'recognition.' It's not really a matter of getting some specific experience or advantage in-game for us, it's simply a matter of getting a shout-out in some way. Thus, for many of us, allowing the fandom as a whole to experience the weapon and boss fight would be fine as long as we get certain exclusive skins, because it's not the exact "value" of whatever we're receiving that concerns us, it's the idea that we get some form of praise for being early backers that newer folks don't have, even if we of course appreciate them for being fellow fans. This is why most of the people on the survey simply don't agree with you that receiving skins rather than unique bosses or weapons would be such a shame.
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 2, 2018 17:34:24 GMT -6
- This games rare content is exclusive. Not for everyone.
- This games rare content is not exclusive. It's for everyone.
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Swordwhip is not high tier, nor in the best tier. It won't affect too much, we do not even know if its even at start or mid-game. I believe its a bonus item around end of the game when you already have 20 other better weapons (but what do I know really).
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In-game content is exclusive for me, it can be locked. Physical is not exclusive for me, it can be shared / given away. Some say digital content can't be locked. I say it can. I have seen a few things being locked. Some things currently on games like Overwatch. Even though its costumes / skins, they are locked for the public. One of which might be unlocked next year though but the others are still locked. One were if you attended Blizzcon at one year, with a digital ticket or not. Other if you pre-purchased the game. They are not available anymore.
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Would you trust companies that says you are only 1 out of x people to get this? Do you care? Why would the company even say such a thing, if its not true? Why bother to lie?
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And yes, you can share your console or PC any day.
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Post by Cranium on Jun 2, 2018 18:10:12 GMT -6
Hardly seems like a fair compromise when you've literally just laid out why skins are not a quantitative trade for a boss and a weapon. Well, perhaps I should explain further. From what I understand, backers who want something to be exclusive are mainly interested in having a commemoration of their role in the project's development. Most of us (I paid 500 dollars, so you know I'm not being blase about this) want recognition and acknowledgement that our support was important. But the key word there is 'recognition.' It's not really a matter of getting some specific experience or advantage in-game for us, it's simply a matter of getting a shout-out in some way. Thus, for many of us, allowing the fandom as a whole to experience the weapon and boss fight would be fine as long as we get certain exclusive skins, because it's not the exact "value" of whatever we're receiving that concerns us, it's the idea that we get some form of praise for being early backers that newer folks don't have, even if we of course appreciate them for being fellow fans. This is why most of the people on the survey simply don't agree with you that receiving skins rather than unique bosses or weapons would be such a shame. They may not agree with it, but it IS a shame because it goes back on what was promised. I didn't back for recognition, I backed for the game and the backer reward. The recognition I receive is my copy of the game and my backer reward. I didn't back this game because I wanted to be a part of a community or I wanted to be a part of something bigger. I backed this game because I enjoy Castlevania and I wanted this game to be made. I don't appreciate people's jealousy of a reward they had three years to receive being used to take away the reward that others were promised and replace it with something of significantly less value.
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Post by gunlord500 on Jun 2, 2018 18:21:24 GMT -6
Enkeria Well, the nature of physical content is a very different thing. There's no element of scarcity to digital content--to make it available to everyone is only a matter of changing a few lines of code. Physical objects, on the other hand, simply cannot be duplicated the same way. If you give away your physical goods, such as your map, your slipcase, etc., you can no longer enjoy them because your friend now has them at his or her house. Even sharing them requires a sacrifice in time and convenient. Physical goods therefore represent a sort of reward for a backer in ways digital goods simply do not and cannot, which means backers wouldn't care that much about locked digital content, since by definition digital content can easily be made available to everyone while it's nowhere near as easy to share physical content. Yeah, but Overwatch is an online game, meaning anyone who pirates the skins will be found out and punished easily. Much of Bloodstained is a single player experience, meaning that any locked digital content will be taken by pirates sooner rather than later. Cranium
Your quote seems to undermine your own reasoning. If you backed this game because you enjoy Castlevania and wanted to see it made, why does it matter if other people get to enjoy your reward, especially if it's not being taken away from you? Even if the backer rewards are no longer exclusive, you still get to enjoy them. The only thing you're losing is "exclusivity," and you don't mention backing because you wanted something exclusive, you mentioned backing simply because you love Castlevania. So then what, exactly, is your critique of the possibility? Yes, it's a pity to break a promise, but this isn't breaking a promise, it's renegotiating a contract, which is perfectly acceptable in the business world and elsewhere. If you have an idea for a better deal, it's fine to ask the other party to change the terms of the original contract they made for you. Given that the vast majority, over 80% od the backers, have no problem with a loss of exclusivity, this would fall under "changing a contract" rather than reneging on a deal, because 505, IGA, etc. honestly asked for everyone's opinion rather than just making exclusive stuff non-exclusive without any forewarning. And besides, they haven't even said they'd do anything yet, as I said, let's wait and see until we hear word from IGA and Artplay themselves in conjunction with 505.
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Post by Cranium on Jun 2, 2018 18:27:43 GMT -6
Your quote seems to undermine your own reasoning. If you backed this game because you enjoy Castlevania and wanted to see it made, why does it matter if other people get to enjoy your reward, especially if it's not being taken away from you? Even if the backer rewards are no longer exclusive, you still get to enjoy them. The only thing you're losing is "exclusivity," and you don't mention backing because you wanted something exclusive, you mentioned backing simply because you love Castlevania. So then what, exactly, is your critique of the possibility? Yes, it's a pity to break a promise, but this isn't breaking a promise, it's renegotiating a contract, which is perfectly acceptable in the business world and elsewhere. If you have an idea for a better deal, it's fine to ask the other party to change the terms of the original contract they made for you. Given that the vast majority, over 80% od the backers, have no problem with a loss of exclusivity, this would fall under "changing a contract" rather than reneging on a deal, because 505, IGA, etc. honstly asked for everyone's opinion rather than just making exclusive stuff non-exclusive without any forewarning. And besides, they haven't even said they'd do anything yet, as I said, let's wait and see until we hear word from IGA and Artplay themselves in conjunction with 505. #1 I do lose my reward, because my reward was an exclusive boss and weapon. #2 I shouldn't have to mention the exclusivity because that's part of the reward. #3 It is breaking a promise because I was promised an exclusive boss and weapon. #4 I didn't sign a contract nor did I agree to negotiations, this is something being forced on me after they've already received my money. I also have no say in the matter as an individual as any decision on the matter will likely be determined by surveying all of us and then I'll just get fucked over because I'm in the minority or they'll just make the decision themselves.
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Post by gunlord500 on Jun 2, 2018 18:41:46 GMT -6
#1 I do lose my reward, because my reward was an exclusive boss and weapon. #2 I shouldn't have to mention the exclusivity because that's part of the reward. #3 It is breaking a promise because I was promised an exclusive boss and weapon. I mean...I don't intend to be harsh, but why is "exclusivity" so important to you? How does it pick your pocket or break your leg if other people can enjoy the same things you've received? I can totally understand your discontent if they were taking away the boss and and swordwhip and giving them to other people entirely, but *you can still enjoy those things,* the only difference is that others can as well.
Again, I say this with all respect, but it's simply not consistent with what you wrote previously. Your previous post said,
"I backed this game because I enjoy Castlevania and I wanted this game to be made."
But if your problem is with other people getting an exclusive reward, *even when you still get to enjoy it,* the most obvious conclusion would be that you didn't back the project because you enjoyed castlevania and wanted it to be made, you backed the project because you wanted an exclusive reward no-one else would get, meaning your motive was simply to get something no-one else did, and it didn't really matter what specifically it was.
That's fine, I'm not criticizing or condemning you, plenty of people back projects for their own reasons. But to have a discussion about the matter you need to be clear about what your own position is based off of, because it's confusing to respond to if your stated position is one thing but your implied position is another.
Well, yes, it was a turn of phrase on my part, they didn't literally sign a contract with you, but I was speaking in a more general sense of acting in good faith. Yes, they didn't email you with negotiations personally, but generally they went through the trouble of surveying the backers, which indicates a good-faith effort to see what their backers want. Given that good-faith effort, few people would say they're maliciously breaking a promise when they've gone to such lengths to keep their fans in the loop.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 2, 2018 18:52:19 GMT -6
If you love Castlevania/want it to be made, the actual likelihood and continuance of this being a thing is much better if future players have access to its content so it can continue to grow and be healthy. It's bigger than us specifically as consumers/individuals. I first and foremost want this project to do well rather than it deliver to me personally what I want. This is more of an organic drive to make a vision happen and continue to happen than specifically just delivery of a commercial product.
That said, a big part of me does still want the exclusive stuff, so that's why I pushed for the skins idea.
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Post by Cranium on Jun 2, 2018 18:54:12 GMT -6
gunlord500 Because the reason that I valued the reward was because of the exclusivity. It is something only I and those who backed for it get to enjoy. Just like the fucking physical rewards are. My reward shouldn't be viewed as being worthless or harmful to non-backers just because its digital and not a physical object. The simplicity of its distribution is not a valid excuse for its personal value to me being unimportant. You'll also notice that BEFORE I said the part that you quoted I first said "I backed for the game and the reward". And as for it not mattering what it was that was exclusive, that's bullshit because the reward wasn't just "SOMETHING EXCLUSIVE". It was an exclusive boss and weapon.
purifyweirdshard One boss and one weapon are not going to kill this game. Pardon me, but the idea that it would is remarkably stupid and I honestly can't believe you said it.
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Post by gunlord500 on Jun 2, 2018 19:03:27 GMT -6
gunlord500 Because the reason that I valued the reward was because of the exclusivity. It is something only I and those who backed for it get to enjoy. Just like the fucking physical rewards are. Why is "exclusivity" something valuable? This is, to put it mildly, unclear. Plenty of "exclusive" things are fairly worthless, while plenty of "non-exclusive" things are very valuable--for instance, national parks are open to all, but they're considered national treasures, while my bathroom is exclusive to me, and believe me, nobody wants to venture in there XD That's a little joke I'm making to bring a bit of levity to the discussion, but the point still stands--if you want IGA and 505 to keep exclusive rewards exclusive even beyond the stated preferences of the overwhelming majority of people who took the survey, you need to provide a convincing, objective argument for the proposition that exclusivity is in and of itself somehow valuable. This is easier said then done, but I maintain that I'm open to an attempt to do so and am willing to hear you out.
That just ties into what I mentioned above--why is exclusivity so important to you personally, as opposed to the actual experience of the boss and the weapon? Why does it take anything away from you to have those things available to others if you can still enjoy them?
But this merely further undermines your point. If you backed for the game, and you receive it, is the game worth less to you because other people can buy it on retail? I assume not. So why would the reward be any different?
Let's say that instead of a boss and weapon, the exclusive reward had been a different stage, or certain kinds of armor or common enemies. Would you not have backed in that case? Did you want specifically an exclusive weapon and boss above all else, or would *any* other kind of exclusive content have been satisfactory to you? Again, I don't ask this to be confrontational, I want to hear your answer because it could help us come to a pleasing compromise for all parties involved.
It's nice of you to say "pardon me," but the lack of good-faith reading in your response is rather less pardonable, and I strongly suggest you make a stronger effort to do so, because the confrontational and profoundly obnoxious nature of many of your responses to everyone in this forum thus far is doing very, very little to make anyone sympathetic to the 11% of backers who feel so strongly about keeping content exclusive. You'll notice that Purify never said the lack of a boss and weapon would "kill" the game. He merely pointed out the game would do better if it was available to everyone. You would do very well to describe why that idea (not your strawman) is mistaken instead of calling it stupid, otherwise the rest of us are very well in our rights to simply dismiss you as arguing in bad faith.
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Post by Arikado on Jun 2, 2018 19:11:03 GMT -6
I can't wait to get my beta code. I have been waiting a while for the beta to come out.
Hopefully the game won't take much longer after that, but then again, I don't want it to be rushed.
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Post by Cranium on Jun 2, 2018 19:18:51 GMT -6
gunlord500 I'm working on a response to the rest of your post right now but I'd first like to tell you not to talk down to me. It makes you look pompous. That post was not directed at you and its none of your business how I composed it. If purify has an issue with it he can post a reply and I'll address it. But if you really must but in on the topic, what he seemed to be implying is that this ONE BOSS and ONE WEAPON will lead to enough loss of sales or upset players that it would put the future of a Bloodstained franchise at stake and yes, I still find that stupid. If you disagree. Fine.
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Post by gunlord500 on Jun 2, 2018 19:21:33 GMT -6
gunlord500 I'm working on a response to the rest of your post right now but I'd first like to tell you not to talk down to me. It makes you look pompous. That post was not directed at you and its none of your business how I composed it. If purify has an issue with it he can post a reply and I'll address it. But if you really must but in on the topic, what he seemed to be implying is that this ONE BOSS and ONE WEAPON will lead to enough loss of sales or upset played and yes, I find that stupid. If you disagree. Fine. I am a moderator here and it is my responsibility to ensure that both my fellow moderators and all members of this forum are treated with respect. It is not a matter of me being pompous, it is simply a matter of enforcing the rules. As an interesting aside, your continued unnecessarily confrontational behavior and your apparent unwillingness to treat Purify, and other members, with a reasonable degree of respect and good faith is a violation of those rules. You would do well to change your behavior--and by "do well," I mean, "you will change your behavior or I will increase your warning level if you do not stop, followed by progressively harsher punishments up to and including a ban."
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Post by Cranium on Jun 2, 2018 19:40:29 GMT -6
gunlord500 I showed him respect by saying "pardon me" before calling the idea "stupid" instead of just saying "that's bullshit". Nothing in that post was an attack on him and none of it, as far as I'm concerned, shows him disrespect. I spoke to him no differently then I would expect to be treated. I would go on, but as I read the rules when I joined, questioning a mods decision is also against the rules and you could just as easily use my response as an excuse to ban me. This is one of the reasons I didn't want to make an account on this forum. My confrontational behavior was a direct result of heated discussions on topics we all have personal stakes in, Bloodstained. And even when I did get heated and confrontational I kept myself composed to what I thought was within the lines of the rules. I did not excessively use obscenities, I did not personally attack others (except in one instance where in I was called a child) and even then it was not with threats of violence or with foul names. And last of all I'll say this, though you may ban me for it. Responding to being told you look pompous by touting how you're a mod and you'll ban me only makes you look more so.
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Post by Cale on Jun 2, 2018 19:41:42 GMT -6
For me it is about phrasing. To quote myself from another thread. Do you think before you make a promise? What if you can’t deliver on your word? Does it matter? The world isn’t going to come to an end, is it? No, but have you considered... Many people are very casual about making promises. Because of this, promises are made frequently with no real intention of keeping them. “I’ll be there in five minutes” is an example of a throwaway promise that is seldom kept. This attitude can have real consequences. When you break a promise, no matter how small it may seem to you, they can damage your reputation. Think about it, when someone else breaks a promise to you, or gets caught in a lie, doesn’t that make you feel violated or cheated? Getting away with a lie can also be dangerous because it fools liars into believing they’re invincible and that they have little chance of getting caught. Once others learn about the lies, some people may forgive, but they won’t forget. Remember, trust is built through a series of experiences shared with others. When behavior is consistent, faith in the relationship develops. When promises are broken or people are misled, the bonds of trust are breached. Broken promises imply that the offenders either didn’t think before making the promises, or don’t care that they’ve let you down. They’re also implying that their needs are more important than yours. So to me, exclusive doesn't need be exclusive, but be honest about it from the get go. If you didn't think about it and want to change your answer later, then at least realize that people will hold you to a lesser standing than they might have originally. You could also bite the bullet and keep things exclusive and take this lesson to heart for next time, you messed up now but your next project could have content for everyone instead of exclusives. In the end I agree that it is a societal issue that needs to be dealt with promptly. At this point I am upset with how everything is being handled. I want to state that I am sure CotM is probably a good game (Still haven't gotten my PS4 code, No i can't use the free Steam key, or play the RotN demos because I use a Mac), and I bet RotN will be amazing as well. But after a while you end up wondering if companies use empty promises just to get money from fans. Exclusive is a term used for "restricted or limited to the person, group, or area concerned". Why not allow these bonuses to everyone from the start and remove the exclusive term? Wouldn't that be the best way to go about this? I would like everyone to be civil about these arguments though, even if I have been a little hot blooded about these subjects myself too... That being said, knowing what I do now I would definitely change a lot of my answers on the survey if I could.
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Post by gunlord500 on Jun 2, 2018 19:49:04 GMT -6
And last of all I'll say this, though you may ban me for it. Responding to being told you look pompous by touting how you're a mod and you'll ban me only makes you look more so.
I could just as easily argue it makes me look like someone who actually knows what his responsibilities are, but honestly, I don't really care enough to contest your point. Call me pompous or whatever you like, I don't mind what's said about me. My only concern is you treat other people here with the appropriate amount of respect. If you can understand that, I will be satisfied. Since you seem to have gotten that point, I won't ban you or take any action against you at the moment, but you will refrain from calling other people "or their ideas" stupid--however you might expect to be treated, we have different standards here. Aside from that I have no issue with you, just keep this admonition in mind and I'll take no action against you.
Cale Yeah, I understand how you feel. If I had been in charge of the Kickstarter from the start, I would have had the swordwhip and IGA boss be stretch goals rather than "exclusive" content. But back then people didn't have experience with Kickstarters we do now and didn't know about how touchy folks could be about exclusive content and whatnot. I can understand the importance of keeping promises, but again, as I mentioned to cranium above, promises aren't exactly "empty" if they're only changed after a good-faith attempt to see what the backers want. Given that the majority of backers are fine with non-exclusive content, any change wouldn't really be making an empty promise. That said, I agree with you 100% about the CotM codes, we're talking about them in other threads but yeah, as I always say, Inti dropped the ball HARD with those
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Post by roguedragon05 on Jun 2, 2018 19:59:44 GMT -6
I just wish the ball wasn't still bouncing more than a week later...
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