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Post by crimsonx4 on Jun 2, 2018 20:21:58 GMT -6
The succubus fits do to medival judeocristian lore, vampires, Castlevania, and Succubi are gothic. Valkyries come from Nordic and “Viking” culture, not really gothic and definitely not judeocristian. Your example of angles with armor makes the Valkyrie a bit awkward since there was already an angel in the poll. Also I’m not a fan of lore breaking content nor do I find “lol random” humor to be fun, even less for it to be a good form of humor. Specially for games like Castlevania and Bloodstained which should and did take themselves seriously. Since that’s a main part of the gothic appeal. Each thing has it’s place and Bloodstained just like Castlevania shouldn’t be a joke. It should actually take itself seriously with it’s world and lore to make us actually care for it. That’s why I invested and believed in this game. It’s a good sign of professionalism as well. Small cameos aren’t a problem, but when a game becomes full of inconsistencies, and product placements that is when it becomes part of the problem. There is nothing fun or respectful in that. Because it's an angel... with armor! But that was more of a joke. Castlevania had Dracula, Frankenstein's Monster, Medusa and Alastor is Greek, Agni is Hindu, Arahabaki is Japanese, Artibatirae is Roman, Balor is Celtic... I'm reading off an extensive list here of cultural origins of Castlevania's enemies... castlevaniadungeon.net/history/monstermyth.htmlAs you may find out, the franchise had long been an amalgamation of different cultures and mythologies. It's nothing new to it. "Castlevania shouldn't be a joke," okay, but it had no problem at all borrowing elements from all sorts of mythologies. It also had a ton of anachronistic food items— tons of ones that hadn't been invented yet as of SotN, and ones that wouldn't have been possible in the region at that time period. "It should actually take itself seriously with it’s world and lore to make us actually care for it." Then it wouldn't make sense to put Miriam in a Succubus costume. Sure, Succubi exist in the mythology, but it would make zero sense for Miriam to dress as a succubus in the lore. Giving her a succubus costume would just be a fun bonus. It's really no different. And I'm not saying the game should go full Dead Rising or Saints Row on us or anything, but a little bit of bonus here and there isn't going to kill the seriousness of the main game. The Axe Lord armor in Symphony of the Night wasn't very serious. Alucard got pissed off wearing the thing and could barely jump. Unlocking 8-Bit Simon in some of the later Castlevania games wasn't very serious either. Hiding pot roast or macaroni and cheese in the walls isn't very serious either. It's okay to have some levity once in a while. And Valkyrie armor really isn't up there in the joke caliber. It seems you are missing a big point. The original Castlevania set out to establish itself as a tribute to the classic horror films of old and utilized juedeocistian lore. Starting with Castlevania III it cemented it’s identity by combining these element, classic horror films, along side historical and legendary elements from Vlad Tepes the III and the judeocristinanity of its time. Years later once that identity and world where already established and cemented the series started to branch out into different mythologies and pantheon to add to its lore. The biggest boom being in the Metroidvania series of games once Dracula’s dominion was established. The key point I’m trying to explain is: first they had to establish the product and its world. From what I’ve seen from the story Bloodstained’s main story and world is medival judeocristian europe. The story is the Church vs the Goetia demons. This is the identity it’s trying to present itself with, its key focus with a nice eastern twist. That established there is nothing Nordic about this. There’s also the gothic theme of the game, Gothic isn’t Nordic. Now if in the sequel they decide to bring the Norse pantheon into the fry then by all means I would gladly welcome that. That that would be a great way to build upon it’s world, but they key here is in a sequel. I don’t see the point in your second part of the argument. Castlevania has always taken itself seriously regardless of how ridiculous it’s gameplay inconsistencies can get. That’s always been part of the appeal and charm. The old meat in the wall, eventually becoming the collect-a-foodthon from the Metroidvania games, are an example of this. It was there but it wasn’t Castlevania’s main point, it was a small quirk a nice wink to the player. Second Old Axe Armor, Pumpkin, and 8-bit Simon are all unlockable bonuses after beating their respective games. None of these are technically a joke, the sole exception might be Pumpkin and imo he was a well handled one. Old Axe Armor is mostly meant for challenge runs and Pumpkin was broke. 8-bit Simon is mostly there because he’s the one that started it all. A pleasant cameo, like I sated before I don’t have a problem with small cameos which make sense. It becomes problematic when it’s all over the place and serves as product placement. There’s also the main reason to use 8-bit Simon would bring less drama than committing to a canon design, but that’s a while difrent argument. Finally your succubus argument doesn’t work because once again Bloodstained is using medival Judeocristian lore. Succubi where very popular during that era. Second Miriam already has a demonic curse. Third her design already has female demon elements to it. All three points point to succubus costumes being viable. Oh and then there’s the element of it being Castlevania’s spiritual successor. Succubi being big fan favorites. Plus the fact Succubi are considered psi vampires and I can continue... Anyways I just hope the top five costumes get in. That way there can be enough variety to keep everyone happy. Elegant Vampire, Provocative Succubus, Angel, Valkyrie, and equipment sets. The later could lead to some creative designs.
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Post by gunlord500 on Jun 2, 2018 20:28:57 GMT -6
crimsonx4 I mean, classic IGAvania games had Valkyries too--they first showed up in Aria of Sorrow and popped up subsequently. I don't think their inclusion as a costume for Miriam would be in violation of what we expect out of IGA's games considering they've been in there before. That said I do agree with you, the top 5 costumes would be ideal--Valkyrie for those of us who like it, Vampire and Succubus for the gothic fans, and so on. Though a "provocative" succubus might be a difficult sell...I've heard Steams is cracking down on lewd content recently, and it would be wise to keep Bloodstained from running afoul of that :/
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Post by roguedragon05 on Jun 2, 2018 20:52:14 GMT -6
I've been thinking about their interest in DLC I myself voted no I didn't want DLC mostly cause I wanted the complete experience all on one disc, but upon further reflection, assuming that that just isn't gonna happen that there will inevitably be patches and updated versions (As we've seen with Curse of the Moon) which while I'm not "happy" about, OK its a reality.
I've decided that I'd really only be interested in DLC that expanded the story/gameplay further and judging from the results I'm not alone, I've actually never been against the idea of expanding the game through DLC I just kinda was worried about let's just focus on "THE GAME" for now, don't want to be planning to far ahead. Now that we're closer though (and for all I know they've been working on this all along just haven't told anyone) the prospect of continuing to support the game with more expansions is a really cool idea and I'd be OK with them getting started now if they haven't already now so long as it did not slow down the games release.
I personally don't see the appeal to mod support but I can definitely see the appeal to others and the community as a whole, redesigning costumes or even making your own skins etc.
I however DO NOT want skins and cosmetics to be DLC I hate having to buy a costume rather than "earning" it someway in the game. Particularly as it's never fun to justify paying $3 or even $1 for a new pair of shoes or something.
A new character though... with her own storyline about a certain exorcist... I don't even need to tell anyone how good that would sell I don't think.
Local/online co operative co-op however I think should be a Bloodstained 2 sorta thing personally I don't think they've made it explicitly clear what they've done so far with the asynchronous co-op so far.
If there is a new story/character I think it has to have new area's to be a worthy DLC I don't mind reusing some things of course but it should be a new experience, and if it was a new playable character in the main game I would expect them to have their own story line, not something like Axe Armor mode in PoR on the DS.
Whats everyone elses take?
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Post by crimsonx4 on Jun 2, 2018 20:52:36 GMT -6
crimsonx4 I mean, classic IGAvania games had Valkyries too--they first showed up in Aria of Sorrow and popped up subsequently. I don't think their inclusion as a costume for Miriam would be in violation of what we expect out of IGA's games considering they've been in there before. That said I do agree with you, the top 5 costumes would be ideal--Valkyrie for those of us who like it, Vampire and Succubus for the gothic fans, and so on. Though a "provocative" succubus might be a difficult sell...I've heard Steams is cracking down on lewd content recently, and it would be wise to keep Bloodstained from running afoul of that :/ But it’s as you said the Sorrow games. Not only are these games at the end of the Castlevania timeline, but they had already established Dracula as being the master of all supertnatural creatures through Dominion. That works wonderfully with it’s context. Also the key reason I thought Pumpkin worked in LoI is because he fit the context of the game being a creature born of alchemy and it’s cuteness had a sinister Tim Burton esque to it that fit the themes of the game. Don’t know if I should edit my previous post and add that. As for the Steam thing I wouldn’t take it that seriously I’ll blow over because money talks. Adult reated content might be restricted, I can understand this, but everything else will remain the same as always. I really doubt we’ll see anything Ecchie or “Agony” levels of provocative too. It’s IGA most likely it’ll be as provocative as LoI and pachinko’s Succubus. Honestly I think they should do it as provocative as the context allows it while remaining faithful to the nature of a Succubus.
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Post by Cranium on Jun 2, 2018 20:52:39 GMT -6
gunlord500 I disrespected no one here and my behavior will remain unchanged.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 2, 2018 20:56:07 GMT -6
I find this to be an even worse solution because #1 people will still cry and moan about not getting the skin and #2 it would still mean the originally promised reward was a lie. Also, I don't remember the tier difference, but I'd hardly consider a single skin (one not all backers may even want) worth paying up an additional tier to receive it. It would be somewhat negative for both "camps" instead of very negative for either. W-What?! You're saying it'd be a... compromise?! Well for starters, it's not replacing anything. Either way, you still get that promised boss and weapon. If the items were what were valuable to you, this'd be a moot discussion. But it hasn't been the point. It's the exclusivity you place value in. And the skins would have that exclusivity for you.
I can understand the frustration here, disagreements aside. Reminds me of that oft Thomas Jefferson-attributed quote: "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."
Times like this could use some better tact. It's not that hard to disagree with people without insulting them. Not to mention "That's stupid" isn't a very well constructed argument. Anger and insults are the worst way to help someone see a different perspective.
Almost as pompous as simply discarding someone's statement as "remarkably stupid" without any following arguments.
============= Regarding the overall issue of exclusivity, while I think a deluxe/delayed method of getting the content out is by far my preferred option as permalocked content is something I completely detest in the games industry, I do think the "correct" thing here would be for the game to follow through on its promises. Even if most backers are fine with it going to everyone, the fact stands that they never decided to change it the entire time they were pulling money for the Kickstarter. People paid into this game with these promises in mind, and the last thing we need is press coverage of "ANOTHER KICKSTARTER BACKING OUT ON THEIR WORD."
I really don't want the content to be permalocked, but I feel like I can't really argue with those that do.
This is factually incorrect. Medusa, a character of Greek mythology, has been in the franchise since the original Castlevania. As have the Medusa Head enemies. They are also staples of the franchise. From game one, they were borrowing from other mythologies. This grew as the franchise evolved, but there was never a point where they stuck only to judeochristianity. I kinda actually figured Valkyrie Armor would be a similar bonus. Unlocked when beating the game or through other special means. Alt costumes tend to be.
None of this has to do with Miram actually being a Succubus or have any reason why she'd actually wear a Succubus suit. It's a gothic themed game.... okay. But why would Miriam wear a Succubus suit? The point is she wouldn't, and the only reason she would is because we the player and they the developers decided to slip her in one. It too breaks the narrative and immersion of the world. But that's okay, because it is a bonus item, and whether Miriam actually would wear it is irrelevant to the choice to give the player to do so.
To their credit, from what I understand the games they're taking down show bare breasts and/or are themed on erotica/sex as a whole. They're cracking down mostly on the "eroge" genre from what I've seen. I don't think Iga's team would go so far with the Succubus design as to have exposed bare breasts in-game (as much as a different side of me would appreciate >.>). I can't imagine it being any more explicit than what you can find from a good number of the girls in Street Fighter even. (Rainbow Mika and Cammy anyone?). I think Steam would let it go
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Post by Cranium on Jun 2, 2018 21:00:46 GMT -6
I am done with this useless conversation going around and around to the same points. From now on, please do not respond / quote to my already existing posts in this thread or tag me in this thread. Thanks.
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Post by roguedragon05 on Jun 2, 2018 21:02:14 GMT -6
Re: Cranium
No problem man if anyone accidently does just ignore em. See ya later.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 2, 2018 21:03:19 GMT -6
<tags Cranium> No problem man if anyone accidently does just ignore em. See ya later. but you just.... ========== Side note: Is there not a way to mute the thread?
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Post by Cale on Jun 2, 2018 21:10:26 GMT -6
I hope protecting RotN from the wrath of Steam won't impact the PS4 version. If design decisions will be based on 1/4 systems releasing the game then we have a problem.
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Post by gunlord500 on Jun 2, 2018 21:20:40 GMT -6
I don't think you can mute an entire thread, but you can block individual users, so Cranium can do that to Roguedragon if he feels inclined. In any case though roguedragon05 please don't be petty, I can understand being irritated by the other guy's responses but if he's agreed to leave the thread, let's be thankful for that and let him on his way. I edited your post so he wouldn't be tagged. Same goes for everyone else here, no need to tag him and bring up an unproductive line of conversation. Let's get back on topic, please. Anyways Roguedragon, yeah, a "certain exorcist" DLC seems as if it would be super popular. I know one guy who would love it...:purify:
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 2, 2018 21:32:17 GMT -6
I don't think you can mute an entire thread, but you can block individual users, so Cranium can do that to Roguedragon if he feels inclined. In any case though roguedragon05 please don't be petty, I can understand being irritated by the other guy's responses but if he's agreed to leave the thread, let's be thankful for that and let him on his way. I edited your post so he wouldn't be tagged. Same goes for everyone else here, no need to tag him and bring up an unproductive line of conversation. Let's get back on topic, please. Anyways Roguedragon, yeah, a "certain exorcist" DLC seems as if it would be super popular. I know one guy who would love it...:purify: From DMs, I don't think he meant to do it intentionally. Or at least not maliciously. I think maybe he missed that "don't tag" bit and just got the quote/respond bit. Or just wanted to provide a final farewell. Either way I just couldn't help but giggle at it ^^'
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Post by gunlord500 on Jun 2, 2018 21:36:08 GMT -6
I don't think you can mute an entire thread, but you can block individual users, so Cranium can do that to Roguedragon if he feels inclined. In any case though roguedragon05 please don't be petty, I can understand being irritated by the other guy's responses but if he's agreed to leave the thread, let's be thankful for that and let him on his way. I edited your post so he wouldn't be tagged. Same goes for everyone else here, no need to tag him and bring up an unproductive line of conversation. Let's get back on topic, please. Anyways Roguedragon, yeah, a "certain exorcist" DLC seems as if it would be super popular. I know one guy who would love it...:purify: From DMs, I don't think he meant to do it intentionally. Or at least not maliciously. I think maybe he missed that "don't tag" bit and just got the quote/respond bit. Or just wanted to provide a final farewell. Either way I just couldn't help but giggle at it ^^' Yeah, we talked about it, it's cool. Just wanted to avoid another potential argument cropping up, better safe than sorry But anyways like I said, we really ought to get back on topic. The other thing I'd note about DLC is that while Castlevania was going for a classic Christian-gothic aesthetic, IGA has a little more freedom with Bloodstained. We already saw a full Japanese stage, for instance, and Zangetsu is definitely a very Japanese-y character. So I think with Bloodstained, IGA might be incorporating more themes from all around the world, which would make a very diverse selection of costumes and such quite sensible
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2018 21:43:45 GMT -6
lovelydumpling Given her rather famous appearance in Clash of the Titans (1981), I think Medusa was probably chosen more for her status as a recognizable movie monster than a mythological figure.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 2, 2018 21:47:56 GMT -6
We get to run around in a beast beret as a typical item in the game. With little bear ears if I can see it correctly. I'm guessing there'll be a whole lot of weird things Miriam can wear in the game. Also isn't she still confirmed to have an Azure Striker attack? @autumn Admittedly I had no idea about that movie. Fair enough. That all aside, I do feel it worth noting that Bloodstained is a spirtiual successor to Symphony of the Night and the Igavania style games after that, by which time they had already widely took in elements of all kinds. I could be wrong but I'm not sure Igarashi was involved in the first set of Castlevania games. Wasn't his first involvement Rondo?
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Post by XombieMike on Jun 2, 2018 21:53:17 GMT -6
Well, Angel has been known for saying that nothing in the KS has been removed. However, now that Inti isn't doing the main game, I wouldn't be surprised if her power set has evolved past Gunvolt references. They really need to keep that stuff separate from IGA's vision. There is a certain part of Curse where I think a Gunvolt thing was a bit much.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 2, 2018 22:01:06 GMT -6
Well, Angel has been known for saying that nothing in the KS has been removed. However, now that Inti isn't doing the main game, I wouldn't be surprised if her power set has evolved past Gunvolt references. They really need to keep that stuff separate from IGA's vision. There is a certain part of Curse where I think a Gunvolt thing was a bit much. Awww. See, I thought it was great. But I guess I'm just a sucker for that exact sort of thing. Reminds me of Capcom games back in the good ol' days, and rumors of the age old internet. Megaman characters in Onimusha Blade Warriors, or X using Hadoken and Shoryuken, or (sadly false) rumors of Akuma in Resident Evil... In my brain I keep the "bonus content" completely distinct from the continuity of the core game, and don't let it effect my perspective of the plot. But I'm a total sucker for crossovers and references and just adore them in my games. And since I do believe that CotM part is non-canon, it just kinda fits in the same realm for me as the Dog ending of Silent Hill.
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Post by Busterific on Jun 2, 2018 22:42:01 GMT -6
Clash of the Titans was one of my favorites. If you can find a copy of the original before they mutilated some of the stop motion in the remaster it was great all around.
It was sad what they did to it in the remake. I think the worst of that was taking the incredibly tense scene with Medusa and making it into a generic action sequence.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2018 23:37:59 GMT -6
That all aside, I do feel it worth noting that Bloodstained is a spirtiual successor to Symphony of the Night and the Igavania style games after that, by which time they had already widely took in elements of all kinds. I could be wrong but I'm not sure Igarashi was involved in the first set of Castlevania games. Wasn't his first involvement Rondo? I can't argue with that, yeah. I definitely associate IGA's games with pan-mythological leanings (albeit with a heavy Gothic European focus). When I think of an IGA world, I think of a world where every corner of the planet has little beasties lurking around. Despite wanting to focus on the Lesser Key of Solomon demons in this game, IGA has hinted that Bloodstained is still very much this kind of world. "...and if the stage were based in Japan, for example, we’d add in Tengu or Nue enemies to give it the proper atmosphere." I agree with crimsonx4 in the sense that a hypothetical Valkyrie outfit would feel like a more a satisfying, natural part of the game if the castle had a Norse-themed stage too (which is plausible, even if not entirely likely), but I personally wouldn't be bothered if the Valkyrie outfit had no such connections.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 2, 2018 23:48:08 GMT -6
I agree with crimsonx4 in the sense that a hypothetical Valkyrie outfit would feel like a more a satisfying, natural part of the game if the castle had a Norse-themed stage too (which is plausible, even if not entirely likely), but I personally wouldn't be bothered if the Valkyrie outfit had no such connections. I'd love to travel through a winter wonderland wasteland in this game! A snow region was kind of explored in Dawn of Sorrow but not very thoroughly. I tend to like Snow areas because they tend to have soft night lighting and relaxing soundtracks like this one. Combined with northern lights and they tend to be my favorite areas in games. I found Symphony an extremely relaxing game despite its gothic and horror overtones because exploration is a relaxing concept for me. And beautiful music like Lost Paintings and roaming through the underwater caves invoked that sense in me. I'd love that kind of thing in a snow region in a Bloodstained game. But yeah, can't see that happening in Ritual of the Night sadly.
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