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Post by Kale on Jan 7, 2017 4:45:34 GMT -6
SHADOW, LIGHTNING, COLORS, SHADERS
Busterific Kale Olrox LeoLeWolferoux As i explained above, i think the essential problem here can be summarized as a situation that can't really be avoided. That's something i want to say and see if i can clarify something. This will be a long text!
MIRIAM'S SHOULDER AND THE SCARF More than one year ago, a picture popped up showing Miriam with a small cloth covering her (otherwise) naked shoulder in a really pre-pre-pre alpha model. After some discussion, it was clarified that her design needed to be changed to add a cool-looking scarf (that, in reality, is two long laces coming out of her shoulder's clothing) because she wasn't visible enough in the scenario. The scarf was added later, alongside some glowing and petals falling from her back rose, all in order to increase her visuals in the gameplay, so, the gamer wouldn't lose her in the environment. That alone, may be part of the shader's selection problem, that made her surprisingly blend in the scenario way better than they expected (something that is kinda counterintuitive if you think that her and the scenario's shaders are different, but that's the reality).
WHAT IS A PLATAFORM AND WHAT ISN'T? After the demo was out, some people (including youtubers that tested the game) pointed out that it was hard to identify what was plataform and what wasn't. Some people where "jumping in thin air" because they thought places in the background were part of the environment. In a response to this, the dev team said they was going to change the lightning over plataforms, to make them way more visible than the rest of the background. In the Demo, the whole lightning and shadow are more or less in the same tone, and the only aestethically's good solution they found out was to increase lightning in "stepable" places.
I see what you mean with this picture...... and I get it, however.... will there be similar looking outcrops in the village that won't be platforms? Differentiation isn't very important if there isn't anything that it needs to be differentiated from. |
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Post by spideryfingers on Jan 7, 2017 4:50:31 GMT -6
I'm generally pleased with the current update. As previously mentioned, certain shadowing needs to be amended but, other than that, it all looks pretty encouraging. I've added an arrow to a screenshot which is pointing to, what I hope will be, a secret area   |
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Post by Enkeria on Jan 7, 2017 6:36:06 GMT -6
Biggest castle....... i vaguely remember this being mentioned as part of the kickstarter... sort of.... maybe. So I'm gonna assume the wording is just biggest castle, and not playable rooms. But if Iga wanted to, and not saying he does, but if he wanted to.... he could have a big castle by making teh background seem really big. That technically works. Not to mention, he could just make really big rooms that aren't filled with much and it would still count. Now, would you count the caverns of SOTN as part of the castle? It's not really, it's just a cave that the castle was built upon. Personally, I'm not too worried. Or worried at all about the castle size. I'm sure it will be at the least, enough to get me to enjoy the castle and won't be the final castle from CoD.... fuck you CoD, I actually loved you until that part. If it's part of the castle's map than it's apart of the castle. It's not so much.... A village isn't the type of aesthetic that belongs with the castle for me. It's more, I want to explore the castle, I want the castle to have a bunch of locations that interlock, and need abilities to progress to and find. A village to a boat seems pretty linear in comparison, so my worry is that they account for the 'biggest castle' in terms of rooms. Does it matter?  Image not official, I made it. |
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Post by Dark on Jan 7, 2017 6:41:24 GMT -6
Biggest castle....... i vaguely remember this being mentioned as part of the kickstarter... sort of.... maybe. So I'm gonna assume the wording is just biggest castle, and not playable rooms. But if Iga wanted to, and not saying he does, but if he wanted to.... he could have a big castle by making teh background seem really big. That technically works. Not to mention, he could just make really big rooms that aren't filled with much and it would still count. Now, would you count the caverns of SOTN as part of the castle? It's not really, it's just a cave that the castle was built upon. Personally, I'm not too worried. Or worried at all about the castle size. I'm sure it will be at the least, enough to get me to enjoy the castle and won't be the final castle from CoD.... fuck you CoD, I actually loved you until that part. If it's part of the castle's map than it's apart of the castle. It's not so much.... A village isn't the type of aesthetic that belongs with the castle for me. It's more, I want to explore the castle, I want the castle to have a bunch of locations that interlock, and need abilities to progress to and find. A village to a boat seems pretty linear in comparison, so my worry is that they account for the 'biggest castle' in terms of rooms. |
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Post by Enkeria on Jan 7, 2017 6:42:15 GMT -6
The popular opinion on the aesthetics in the update video is that it needs some work |
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Post by Enkeria on Jan 7, 2017 6:47:28 GMT -6
Take a look at this: PICTURE 1 As we all can see here, Miriam looks out of place at this scene. She looks floating and not really standing in the ceiling. PICTURE 2 Here, in the other hand, she looks way more blended with the environment. You can really feel she is there. The biggest thing I noticed was that her shadow looked washed out almost to the point of being missing on the lighter colored platforms which I think is adding the her being 'floaty' in this environment. |
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Post by Enkeria on Jan 7, 2017 6:49:39 GMT -6
That's the thing, Look at the shadow of the surrounding areas in those 2 pictures, does it not look like the first is randomly illuminated by another light? While the bottom has correct lighting? I think once that is solved, everything would look right.
The light can however, make her shadow be a bit stronger. The light can also be a bit more faint. The light can change colors if they wish and the light can be but further away, making her shadow less of an distraction.
There are ways to fix this, but the shadow, as is, is correct if she are very close to the source of the light. Cool effect, but makes the bright background a distraction. |
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Post by Enkeria on Jan 7, 2017 6:57:36 GMT -6
Time for some answers! THE WELL-LIT CASTLE ENTRANCE VS THE DARK VILLAGE  After some videos showing the Castle Entrance, a well-lit area with a uniform color, we get the Village video. And the village is redish dark and menacing-looking. But the plataforms are obviously brighter than the rest of the scenario, in order to make them easily visible and the player can easily figure out that they can be step on, to adress the problem i talked about . And now we reached a situation that, in my honest opinion, has no definitive fix: if they change the plataform's lightning, they will be less visible and thus, we will go back to the same problem.
Hmm. dank platforms, buuut.. a really thick and dark shadow on the ground or straight below it. Or how about a cell shading around it when you are close? Perhaps use colors that are dark but a color palette that aren't something you see in the background?
Oh and thanks for the Iga Castle info |
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Post by Galamoth on Jan 7, 2017 10:40:54 GMT -6
One detail that I initially failed to notice in the Kickstarter update (listed here as well on the top of page 1) is the intended source of the " red light". For those curious enough, here's some basic information on the 1783 Laki eruptions. I already posted about this in the Shoutbox earlier, but I'll just leave it here for permanence. |
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Post by Astaroth on Jan 7, 2017 11:15:24 GMT -6
one way is to make her shadow have a higher opacity min, so even against lighter platforms and ambient light it wont wash out, but another way is to have a small section under her feet have a static shadow, similar to older games where there was always a circular shadow cast under the characters feet to give you a way to eyeball exactly where you will land, it also has the illusion that no matter where you are itll always look like youre standing on something
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Post by Kale on Jan 7, 2017 11:37:37 GMT -6
That's the thing, Look at the shadow of the surrounding areas in those 2 pictures, does it not look like the first is randomly illuminated by another light? While the bottom has correct lighting? I think once that is solved, everything would look right.
The light can however, make her shadow be a bit stronger. The light can also be a bit more faint. The light can change colors if they wish and the light can be but further away, making her shadow less of an distraction.
There are ways to fix this, but the shadow, as is, is correct if she are very close to the source of the light. Cool effect, but makes the bright background a distraction.What lamp and what light source are you referring to? I was speaking of the two pictures, first being the ship 2nd being the village, I seemed to have done a bad way quoting. But regardless, which light source is she near in the village? |
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Post by Redogan on Jan 7, 2017 12:46:27 GMT -6
One detail that I initially failed to notice in the Kickstarter update (listed here as well on the top of page 1) is the intended source of the " red light". For those curious enough, here's some basic information on the 1783 Laki eruptions. I already posted about this in the Shoutbox earlier, but I'll just leave it here for permanence. Just read through that article. Interesting back story for the village and surrounding areas. I think it would be cool to have some of the outside areas in Bloodstained to have a bit of fog/haze floating by ominously. To tie it in, the townspeople could all think it was from the Laki eruptions, but in reality it is the fog of war brought on by Gebel summoning the demons. |
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Post by Busterific on Jan 7, 2017 12:56:38 GMT -6
Thank you Pure Miriam for all the detail relating to how the shadows and such are currently set up in the game. That's a whole lot more technical detail than I had expected to receive, and covers a lot regarding how something that sounds easy such as darkening a shadow can be a whole lot less trivial than it sounds. I would have thought a lighter or different color would have been used for the platforms textures rather than them having their own lighting set up. I also would have thought that lighting as you've described for the platforms would have a default setting, but could otherwise be customized on a per environment basis. |
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Post by Enkeria on Jan 7, 2017 17:38:22 GMT -6
The light is correct.. Stay close to a lamp, and go up the staires.. The shadow falls like that.
The light can however, make her shadow be a bit stronger. The light can also be a bit more faint. The light can change colors if they wish and the light can be but further away, making her shadow less of an distraction.
There are ways to fix this, but the shadow, as is, is correct if she are very close to the source of the light. Cool effect, but makes the bright background a distraction. What lamp and what light source are you referring to? I was speaking of the two pictures, first being the ship 2nd being the village, I seemed to have done a bad way quoting. But regardless, which light source is she near in the village? Lamp was an example. The light is correct since the glow from the source are to the mid-right. When you are above the middle, the shadow falls a bit off when you are higher up. Making her shadow fade into light. When she is running on the ground, she is less in the middle and thus having strong shadow again. I guess if she were on top of the environment, her shadow would be thicker again. The village lightsources can be both the lava / vulcano, the sun setting or fire from other buildings. |
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Post by Kale on Jan 7, 2017 18:51:51 GMT -6
Okay, though I dont see any lava or volcano..... but even if there were or the sun setting, it wouldn't affect the platform 10 times the ground a few feet away. It looks that much brighter. A lamp would be a small light source, I can sort of see it, but that wouldn't be the same as a big encompassing light source like lava or a setting sun.
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Post by Galamoth on Jan 7, 2017 19:17:45 GMT -6
Okay, though I dont see any lava or volcano..... but even if there were or the sun setting, it wouldn't affect the platform 10 times the ground a few feet away. It looks that much brighter. A lamp would be a small light source, I can sort of see it, but that wouldn't be the same as a big encompassing light source like lava or a setting sun. I'm assuming it's because the setting of Bloodstained is in England. Laki is an island just off the southern coast of Iceland. The poisonous clouds that spewed forth from volcanic activity affected most of northern Europe, though (including England). |
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Post by Jango on Jan 8, 2017 0:00:06 GMT -6
This thread took an odd turn.
Light, Lava, and Look: The Physics of Fantasy
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Post by Galamoth on Jan 8, 2017 9:46:00 GMT -6
This thread took an odd turn. Light, Lava, and Look: The Physics of Fantasy I guess those may be more important concerns than whether or not the Village and Galleon will take up part of the amount of rooms promised to us in the "IGA's Biggest Castle" stretch-goal. I'm pretty sure the very reason why that particular stretch-goal is called "IGA's Biggest Castle" is because all of the 1,600+ Rooms that were mentioned are going to be solely part of Gebel's Castle. No other area outside of it. I mean, it's still very much a valid concern, considering that they are developing areas outside of the Castle in the first place (though quite close in proximity to it). I just take the wording of that stretch-goal literally, as in neither the Village nor Galleon will count [at all] towards the 1,600+ Rooms. |
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Post by cecil-kain on Jan 8, 2017 22:53:41 GMT -6
Reading through all the comments, I think I have something important to add to this conversation, but first I have a couple suggestions for Fangamer Steve and Mana regarding these kind of development updates. Gameplay videos need a"work in progress" disclaimer. It's a simple and effective way to acknowledge any quality concerns up front. But we also need some clarity. Is Bloodstained still in the early Alpha stage? What kind improvements and polish are planned for the later Alpha and Beta stages? How will those changes impact the Village shown in the latest video? The backers need this kind of context to provide constructive criticism and effective feedback. Right now we have only the vaguest idea how far along Bloodstained really is, and that's not a good thing. We don't necessarily need a progress bar, but after the 2018 announcement, and the addition of DICO and Monobit to the development team, this is a very important topic to address IMO. Moving on... I'm a Mac guy without easy access to a PC, so I was one of the last people to play the E3 Demo last summer. I was way too late to contribute to the demo feedback, but there was an issue that ties in nicely to my Village comments today. I'll get to that... First let's talk about the lighting. I understand the platforms need to pop, but these awnings are too brightly lit. I think the team may have over-reacted to the "what is/isn't a platform" criticism. As a general rule, I'm a big fan of natural light sourcing. I understand ambient lighting is necessary for clarity and gameplay purposes, but I will take issue with Miriam's shadow. The Village's primary light source appears to be an overhead background moon, so it makes no sense for Miriam to cast a sharp shadow on the wall right behind her. This makes it feel like Miriam's stuck in some kind of unnatural spotlight. Now if there were some foreground torches to cast her shadow naturally as she passes them.... That would be absolutely beautiful. I'm actually much more concerned about how static this particular stage feels. Outdoor environments generally need more life than indoor environments, but this Ruined Village needs special attention. First let me say that the backgrounds are beautifully detailed --exactly what we come to expect from Igarashi. But some wind rustling leaves, a flowing fog, or even a few tiny background critters could really bring this stage to life. The theme of ruin and decay is very strong here. The devil is in the details. Most of the Village platforming is way too steady and sturdy for buildings that look like they're falling apart. The stage art doesn't match the gameplay. Let's revisit the Minerva demo for just a moment. The hammock platforms on that stage were too sturdy as well. If a platform doesn't look like masonry, it shouldn't behave like masonry. Those hammocks should bounce and sway when Miriam jumps onto them. Likewise these Village awnings and rooftops should have some give and bounce. Maybe a supporting wall cracks when Miriam jumps onto one. Maybe another collapses altogether. Maybe another drops to a lower level without collapsing completely. I like how the rooftop collapses toward the end, but it feels way way too fragile compared to the rest of the stage. Miriam should stand on that rooftop at least a few seconds before it collapses --maybe even jump on it a couple times... I'm deliberately reserved in my criticism, but I had to make these points because nobody else seemed to notice. Gratitude and respect to Igarashi and the development team.  Cheers. |
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Jan 9, 2017 0:01:04 GMT -6
Reading through all the comments, I think I have something important to add to this conversation, but first I have a couple suggestions for Fangamer Steve and Mana regarding these kind of development updates. Gameplay videos need a"work in progress" disclaimer. It's a simple and effective way to acknowledge any quality concerns up front. But we also need some clarity. Is Bloodstained still in the early Alpha stage? What kind improvements and polish are planned for the later Alpha and Beta stages? How will those changes impact the Village shown in the latest video? The backers need this kind of context to provide constructive criticism and effective feedback. Right now we have only the vaguest idea how far along Bloodstained really is, and that's not a good thing. We don't necessarily need a progress bar, but after the 2018 announcement, and the addition of DICO and Monobit to the development team, this is a very important topic to address IMO. Moving on... I'm a Mac guy without easy access to a PC, so I was one of the last people to play the E3 Demo last summer. I was way too late to contribute to the demo feedback, but there was an issue that ties in nicely to my Village comments today. I'll get to that... First let's talk about the lighting. I understand the platforms need to pop, but these awnings are too brightly lit. I think the team may have over-reacted to the "what is/isn't a platform" criticism. As a general rule, I'm a big fan of natural light sourcing. I understand ambient lighting is necessary for clarity and gameplay purposes, but I will take issue with Miriam's shadow. The Village's primary light source appears to be an overhead background moon, so it makes no sense for Miriam to cast a sharp shadow on the wall right behind her. This makes it feel like Miriam's stuck in some kind of unnatural spotlight. Now if there were some foreground torches to cast her shadow naturally as she passes them.... That would be absolutely beautiful. I'm actually much more concerned about how static this particular stage feels. Outdoor environments generally need more life than indoor environments, but this Ruined Village needs special attention. First let me say that the backgrounds are beautifully detailed --exactly what we come to expect from Igarashi. But some wind rustling leaves, a flowing fog, or even a few tiny background critters could really bring this stage to life. The theme of ruin and decay is very strong here. The devil is in the details. Most of the Village platforming is way too steady and sturdy for buildings that look like they're falling apart. The stage art doesn't match the gameplay. Let's revisit the Minerva demo for just a moment. The hammock platforms on that stage were too sturdy as well. If a platform doesn't look like masonry, it shouldn't behave like masonry. Those hammocks should bounce and sway when Miriam jumps onto them. Likewise these Village awnings and rooftops should have some give and bounce. Maybe a supporting wall cracks when Miriam jumps onto one. Maybe another collapses altogether. Maybe another drops to a lower level without collapsing completely. I like how the rooftop collapses toward the end, but it feels way way too fragile compared to the rest of the stage. Miriam should stand on that rooftop at least a few seconds before it collapses --maybe even jump on it a couple times... I'm deliberately reserved in my criticism, but I had to make these points because nobody else seemed to notice. Gratitude and respect to Igarashi and the development team. Cheers. Well said! I'd expect nothing less from Cecil~ Yeah lighting is a big deal, and the whole "Miriam casting a definitive shadow" is now something that is starting to bother me, too. I get that the protagonist should be lit up, but yeah the spotlight-esque quality seems a bit...off to me. The torch idea that Cecil mentioned is a very good way to remedy this. Or maybe there could be some still-working circuitry that dangles light bulbs over and around some of the buildings??? Something to think about. Also: CURRENT POSITION: WORK IN PROGRESS
Just for you, Cecil. 
Because yes, we do still have another year+ of development, I think everyone needs to settle down with the shading nonsense. A couple of minor changes can have just as big of an impact as something drastic. For example, did I think that IGA and co. went a little too far in the opposite direction when it comes to 'what is a platform and what is not'? Yes, yes I did. But with so much time ahead of it, I'm definitely not worried about it. This is another reason why there is going to be backer exclusive beta, so that the team can take criticisms like these and change it. But for right now, we'd better just leave well alone. I'm not worried about the outlook of the game when 2018 arrives, and I'd expect the same outta the rest of the backers. |
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Cheers. 
