Procedural Generation VS handcrafted Scenarios

Back to the topic, talking about backgrounds now.

Iga said that Procedural Generation are being used on backdrops / backgrounds. We also know that Procedural Generation was used on other Igavanias, but even so, most of them, as Iga himself said, was also handcrafted. Let's take a look at some backgrounds from some of Igavanias, as a comparison.


SYMPHONY OF THE NIGHT BACKGROUNDS

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For me, this is one of the best examples of what a beautiful background can look. This is a particularly small room, with nothing really important on it, besides some itens. Even so, they decided to overly detail it, by creating a 3d effect with stained glasses, an altar and all those impressive and beautifully crafted lightning. By far, for me, one of the best backgrounds of the whole game.


One of the most interesting things for backgrounds on Igavania, for me, is their abiluty to make you imagine what would look to play on the other side of the screen. Take this, for instance. You can see huge windows, that open and close, with trees and castle walls, with a purple dark outside. There are Dracula's minions out there? What would be to play on that side, killing demons around the trees and walking closer to the castle walls? I even thought that, making the player plays on the background, could be a good idea for a Second Castle...who knows...


HARMONY OF DISSONANCE BACKGROUNDS

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This is more akin to what we were discussing before. Take a look, specially, at the spears on the back of that room down below. They are obviously displayed as if they were put there on a random way, but they aren't random at all. After each statue, the spears are all placed exactly on the same way. Wall cracks are also all on the same disposition. That is a good example of simply copy/paste environment without much human touch on it. This repetition can be find on all games, yes, but it is bad when you can spot that on a place that it LOOKS LIKE it had the intention to be random.


ARIA OF SORROW BACKGROUNDS

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I really love Inner Quarters. It's music is awesome and it's backgrounds are fine and detailed. Each piece of it has a different look, with even small details, like the curtains, the mirrors and all the windows, alongside that area on the stairs at the left, on the background, showing, again, one fot he thigns i like more: how the background area looks like, making me want to go there to play.



ORDER OF ECCLESIA BACKGROUNDS

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Ecclesia's Backgrounds are beautiful. They really look like a church and each particular room is well detailed and really well made. Those assets are awesome and it all combines perfectly with the whole scenario. It's a shame that not the whole game had this kind of detail.


A WORD ABOUT BACKGROUNDS

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I think backgrounds are really important o Igavania games. They show us how the place looks like, make us imagine how it would be to play on the other side, and make everything feels more alive and realistic, specially if there are things happening on the background or the background itself interacts with the area you are playing with. I have faith on IGA and his team, that they will be able to make high-quality backgrounds for the game. The first screens we saw are already proving that, on my opinion.

I'm going to give my two cents on what IGA meant by procedural generation. This isn't the same kind of procedural generation used in No Man's Sky or roguelike games but the latter that Pure Miriam mentioned - " generate backgrounds, scenarios and assets and, fix things here and there, saving it like that to fix the look." As simple as crafting a wall from a looping flat object is considered procedural. For Bloodstained, the level design and enemy placement will be strategically hand placed by the team, but the environment assets (portion of it) will be procedurally generated. Now that we're working with UE4, most of the work that were handcrafted can now be automated with similar output. Textures can be algorithmically generated with randomized shapes and sizes. This works well for Bloodstained because it's made in 3D. 

According to our technical artist, if we utilize this function, it will be very easy to adjust and change features for the backdrops if we ever needed to go back. I'm not familiar with the field but from what I saw as a person from an art background, something made in mere minutes would take me hours to draw if I did it all by hand. If you liked the ship stage from the E3 demo, all the environment will keep that quality bar. 

to be honest, the downside of this is that the illustrative features will be lessened. This is a matter of preference and there will be people who will like one over the other. Our current building style will make the environment more physical based and realistic - more modern. The previous style would be  painterly, but the repetition would be inevitable with the given time frame. It could even look outdated by the time the game is released.

Hm, that's pretty much what I figured.

Darn it IGA, if you weren't so transparent about these things, most people probably would never have known the difference lol. I'd act in much the same way, though.

I liked the way the E3 ship looked aside from a few small details. (Most notably, the net-style platforms didn't give any when you jumped on them. I'm not sure what kind of netting they used, but most net platforms would give a bit under Miriam's weight.) So, if the rest of the game has the same quality backgrounds and assets as the ship, then we should be A-OK, right?

Can they start with procedural generation and then examine each stage and hand craft the details on them? My main concern is that some areas of the castle may not make any sense.

I'd say that it looks like you've effectively answered everyone's questions in this thread, regarding how Pro-Gen will be handled, with brevity.

It's so nice to get official input.

I just wanted to clarify nothing needed to be 'saved'. It's okay for criticism and concern.

Let's remember when the game was first showed off it looked like this.


and some people were taking issue with others saying it looked a bit simple and now look how much it's changed since then-


Every opinion is worth being heard whether you think it's valid or not. I feel like everyone feels a bit more invested in this because they contributed to the campaign but we all just want the best for the project and the more input in general whether it be critical or positive will better serve the talented people working on the game.

Anyways, I appreciate the insight once again Mana . I think for my concern it was the worry that the procedural elements would be a bit more relied upon in making the environments appear different instead of actually crafting more unique environments to mix things up. An example would be in the boat area you go to the same hallway over and over and then there's the added element of water in it. I mean I like the difference but it's still the same location that i've been in a few times. Obviously it's a boat though so there's only so much you can do with it. Lol

It's a wait and see for me. I love the QUALITY of the boat stage but it's hard to gauge how a CASTLE stage will feel variety wise or structurally compared to a boat...lol

CastleDan , man don't ever be hung up about the validity of your opinion. Please post it whatever it is.

The same goes for everybody. Don't take discussions/arguments too personally. If anything, let it refine your stance and think about it more critically.

I remember the Morte Cannons had slight differences if you looked closely. I imagine it's safe to say the procedural generation will be used for that too!