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Post by Pure Miriam on Oct 6, 2016 7:48:03 GMT -6
After IGA's last interview on IGN (that you can see here bloodstainedfanforums.com/thread/1383/ign-article-10-delay-publisher ) he revelaed that the game is showing to be so big that they needed more people o the team that could work with Procedure Generation. That sparkled on me an idea for a deep discussion about it. I want to say, right from the start, that i'm not a programmer, so, most of the info i'm presenting here is based on my own research over internet. WHAT IS PROCEDURAL GENERATION
In computing, procedural generation is a method of creating data algorithmically as opposed to manually. In computer graphics, it is also called random generation and is commonly used to create textures and 3D models. In video games it is used to automatically create large amounts of content in a game. (Wikipedia)
Procedural Generation can be used for lots of things, but it is most commonly used to create games with random aspects, like roguelike dungeon games and games that require the constant usage of random generated content (such as Spore or No Man's Sky). It is also used to create games, where you generate backgrounds, scenarios and assets and, fix things here and there, saving it like that to fix the look, and you have a whole scenario made up much faster than if you would try to do it by hand. HOW PROCEDURAL GENERATION WILL BE USED IN BLOODSTAINED: RITUAL OF THE NIGHT
IGA explained that without Procedural Generation, the game would take a lot of time to be made, due to how large it is. He said that they needed to bring in another team with procedural know-how on how to take something, copy it, use random generation on computer-driven way and create it, because considering how big the game is, they would never be able to finish it on time if everything would be done by hand. He said that the backdrops are being made with Procedural Generation and he, again, said that the sheer size of the game requires this. He even acknowledges that doing everything by hand would be beautiful, but it would create huge amounts of delays and problems and that they are focusing on balancing the usage of Procedure Generation and the art side of the game. This team wasn't selected yet. Iga told IGN a new development partner hadn't been selected at the time of this interview. He and the team had limited the decision to a few options and were very close. Of course, not all the game will be made that way, but quite large part of it will. THE BENEFITS OF PROCEDURAL GENERATION CONSIDERING BLOODSTAINED: RITUAL OF THE NIGHT
- Smaller file sizes for programming reasons.
- Faster creation.
- Much larger amount of content due to how easy it is to create.
- Randomness create a more life-like looks.
THE PROBLEMS OF PROCEDURAL GENERATION CONSIDERING BLOODSTAINED: RITUAL OF THE NIGHT
- The game can be rendered bland, with lack of unique scenarios.
- There is a chance of repetitive and overuse of copy/paste backgrounds and assets.
CLOSING COMMENTS
What do you think? We don't have much info, but it is probably that almost all Igavanias were 100% handcrafted, with each small piece of the castle being created alone, which gave to most of the games, a beautiful unique look to almost any place you could go. On the other hand, almost all Igavanias HAD a lot of copy and paste content. Sprites and graphics were overused since Symphony of the Night (that ALSO reused graphics from Rondo of Blood, by the way. Procedural Generation being used to create large parts of the game's backdrops and scenarios, fixing it and then using what was generated. What do you think of that? That's all folks!
Additional info: i'm not a programmer, i just researched some articles and info about it and decided to post it. If anyone has a better understanding of it than me, please, be welcome to share. |
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Post by XombieMike on Oct 6, 2016 8:03:47 GMT -6
Here's a video about PG in UE4.
Designing games has obviously changed since the days of the Playstation 1.
Random generated castle rooms were a stretch goal, and why not take advantage of those methods that will obviously be needed to assist in making the main game content then polishing it to perfection.
IGA said there is a balance. In sure he will get it right. In the video for the update you see him in UE4 using the logic trees that craft the procedure generation.
I'm glad IGA has the best tools in the industry to make the next big IGAvania.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Oct 6, 2016 8:10:36 GMT -6
How I'm envisioning this is somewhat different. I don't have programming know-how/Unreal experience either, but I'm picturing something like...
The basic shapes and design features of a given area are loaded into the software, some parameters are set, and then the software generates a level with those settings. The things that don't have to be done "by hand" would be things like the arrangement of stairs, exactly where/how background set pieces repeat, maybe where doors and screen transitions are placed. The actual design OF the elements in the background are still artistically done by hand, but their suggested placement options are loaded into the software to fill out the game to then be adjusted for the wanted level design (desired placement of assets, easier/harder jumps and platforms, etc).
So, to put this to a specific example, instead of the designer having to perfectly space out each set of statues in the entrance level, and make sure that everything fits together symmetrically and well in an architectural sense, along with where and how to place stairs and doors to where it makes sense for them to be there, the software loads up a scenario where all of that is mostly already done, to then just be adjusted as desired for flavor/uniqueness.
It reminds me of what I do at work. Nowadays, we have electronic medical records, and progress note templates that are called "smart sets" that automatically load in patient demographics and pertinent information. It just automatically takes over all of the mundane copy/paste I would have to otherwise do from the chart by hand.
In the end, what I think all this means is that the artistic touches will all still be there, they're just making the more menial aspects of arranging things easier on them. There IS certainly art in how a level is laid out at even the most basic level, but there again I think the later steps of designer adjustments and IGA approval will retain that. |
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Post by CastleDan on Oct 6, 2016 8:41:02 GMT -6
I'm glad everyone's optimistic as I'm pessimistic a lot, you all know I'm less of a fan of the more recent igavania's and more of a fan of the older ones. So, maybe the castle design itself is a bigger concern or something I stress over more because it's been something I've not enjoyed as of late. When Rouge like mode was announced I remember people being happy it's just a separate thing and not the main castle using procedural generated elements. Mainly because procedural generated things tend to not come out as nicely as someone who hand crafts and creates themselves, as even IGA admits in the article. That's my fear in the end, computer systems doing a brunt of castle population that takes away the specialness of a team plotting things out and instead gives more bland soulless repetition. The key to SOTN's great castle and all the BEST castle's in the series were they had a soul, as Alucard elegantly put it... "it's a creature of chaos". Elements that slap me on the face and make me go .. " Wait i've seen this thing in other rooms, or oh that's a twist on that other design i've seen multiple times" just kinda takes away the enjoyment of exploring. Etc..etc. Background is a HUGELY important element in my opinion the single most important. A good castle encourages you to keep exploring, a bad castle makes you bored of a game pretty quickly, well for me at least. The best castle's were always the ones where unique rooms were laid out and not repeated, where the elements within the unique rooms STAYED within those rooms to make it feel like a special area. I feel like the more reliance on a computer the less likely that feeling of freshness, that feeling of human design will exist. Prove me wrong Bloodstained team...prove me wrong like you often do.   Mana if you want to ease my silly, over-reacted, scrooge like worries by all means  I'm sure we might all be looking into this procedural element the wrong way or maybe not getting exactly how it's being used. ( game looks great there's no denying it so don't take this post the wrong way) |
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Post by Galamoth on Oct 6, 2016 8:50:05 GMT -6
I'm not worried at all. Procedural generation was used in the development of many other games, ultimately to ease the process. I'm especially not worried because this was also used in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night.
IGA and his development teams can just add, edit, and fine-tune the details for most (if not all) of the generated content. We all know that they will.
Besides, I would also presume that the only mode of gameplay in Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night where the procedural-generation will really go crazy is in the Rogue-like Mode.
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Post by CastleDan on Oct 6, 2016 9:00:37 GMT -6
I'm not worried at all. Procedural generation was used in the development of many other games, ultimately to ease the process. I'm especially not worried because this was also used in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. IGA and his development teams can just add, edit, and fine-tune the details for most (if not all) of the generated content. We all know that they will. Besides, I would also presume that the only mode of gameplay in Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night where the procedural-generation will really go crazy is in the Rogue-like Mode. Well, I can understand how some people aren't worried. There's a LOT of people who loved the DS games a lot and had no problem with their castle designs. I had BIG problems with them, so for someone like me it's a big worry. Symphony most definitely did have repeating elements but man, the focus on procedural talk is what kinda worries me more than anything. My original concern from the VERY beginning was that this being the biggest castle means they will have to find ways to make it happen and it might cut into the quality of the castle itself. It's an example of quantity vs quality. I rather have a beautifully designed castle that was smaller than a huge one where it's less beautiful. That was my whole concern originally, so for them to talk about having to use procedural methods to populate the castle's backgrounds that speaks right to my concern. It could turn out fine in the game but IGA's words said it best they could do it themselves and it'd be beautiful. Makes me wish the Castle wasn't so big. Dang it I'm so negative I hate it. lol Positive comment to offset my negativity- I've loved pretty much every single thing about this game thus far. |
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Post by XombieMike on Oct 6, 2016 9:28:58 GMT -6
Using the tools the most efficient way is critical to the project. Below you can see how these methods aren't just used to generate a majority of the game and just polish it up like I mentioned earlier. It's part of everything. If you want your walls to have windows spaced out, certain things between or on those windows and randomized, there are ways to use the methods of procedure generated smart objects to accomplish that.
If you want to make an iron fence or picket fence you don't want it to be a bunch of "hand crafted" objects. You want them to be smart instances of a blue print.
Using hand crafted in the title of this thread is misleading. Everything is hand crafted. Even the procedures.
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Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Oct 6, 2016 9:29:26 GMT -6
I'm not worried at all. Procedural generation was used in the development of many other games, ultimately to ease the process. I'm especially not worried because this was also used in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. IGA and his development teams can just add, edit, and fine-tune the details for most (if not all) of the generated content. We all know that they will. Besides, I would also presume that the only mode of gameplay in Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night where the procedural-generation will really go crazy is in the Rogue-like Mode. Most games use some form of procedural generation. When i said that almost all Igavanias were made 100% handcrafted, what i meant that most assets and backgrounds was finelly tuned by hand and the games had a lot of hand-made content. Of course, some degree of procedural generation is needed on almost any game nowadays... But, as CastleDan said, the focus on Procedural generation could shake some people. And i didn't knew that Symphony of the Night used that, to be honest. Also, i'm not against it at all. I have faith on IGA team. |
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Post by estebant on Oct 6, 2016 9:34:19 GMT -6
Is it going to be used to make the game... or is it going to be use within the game (Like random enemy placement)?
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Post by Yän on Oct 6, 2016 10:57:09 GMT -6
Is it going to be used to make the game... or is it going to be use within the game (Like random enemy placement)? In the article it's about making the game more quickly not about system- and level design questions. They want it as a workflow-tool which only makes sense for a game of this scale. |
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Post by Redogan on Oct 6, 2016 10:57:31 GMT -6
I think the procedural generation is fine and will speed things up quite a bit. They can generate the bulk of an area and then tweak/fine-tune as they go through.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 12:06:08 GMT -6
You know all those assets that you see repeating over and over again in games? Y'know, things like wall textures, various patterns, objects, paintings, windows and statues?
Well, what procedural generation will do is take all those shapes and arrange them differently and/or give them specific details (cracks in different places, various colors, etc.).
This is nothing to be afraid of, as it will enrich the castle and make every room feel more unique.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Oct 6, 2016 12:25:40 GMT -6
You know all those assets that you see repeating over and over again in games? Y'know, things like wall textures, various patterns, objects, paintings, windows and statues? Well, what procedural generation will do is take all those shapes and arrange them differently and/or give them specific details (cracks in different places, various colors, etc.). This is nothing to be afraid of, as it will enrich the castle and make every room feel more unique. That's what i think too. I really don't understand a lot of it, but i made up this thread because some people wanted to talk about it. I know Procedural Generation is used all the time in many games, at many aspects of it. It seems that on Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night, the usage will be more extensive then normal. But i believe that will make the game looks more unique and interesting, and we can already tell that by the pictures. |
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Post by crocodile on Oct 6, 2016 12:26:27 GMT -6
My take away was that procedurally generated content was mostly in respect to asset generation - they have a LOT of assets to generate and if that can at all be streamlined (or say the process of just laying down stuff like statues or whatever) that would be a massive boon to the project. That's not the same as actual platform placement or general castle design, etc. As has already been mentioned, we already have a mode where the levels are procedurally generated so there's no real reason to fear that for the main game. EDIT: Meh, seems I took too long on hitting reply and got NINJA'd |
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Post by CastleDan on Oct 6, 2016 13:41:19 GMT -6
My take away was that procedurally generated content was mostly in respect to asset generation - they have a LOT of assets to generate and if that can at all be streamlined (or say the process of just laying down stuff like statues or whatever) that would be a massive boon to the project. That's not the same as actual platform placement or general castle design, etc. As has already been mentioned, we already have a mode where the levels are procedurally generated so there's no real reason to fear that for the main game. EDIT: Meh, seems I took too long on hitting reply and got NINJA'd Maybe it's the word choice that threw me off because i specifically saw using it for the backgrounds. If they mentioned assets in the background maybe that wouldn't have worried me as much. It's more I want the personal touch to override the computer's output not the other way around. I want a vision for how things will look in the rooms of the castle, with a real personal touch. Computer regurgitating backgrounds just worries me. It depends on HOW much it's used and frankly it being mentioned makes it sound like A LOT, when most people don't even mention that in projects unless it's a full on procedural generated adventure. I'm not too big of a fan on ANY procedural generated game to begin with the locations always tend to be pretty bland, similar despite it being used to spice things up constantly. I'm not too familiar on how it works and if it's working like you guys said to just fill up the rooms more that's one thing but I'm taking it in a much bigger way when it's specifically saying the backgrounds. |
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Post by JeffCross on Oct 7, 2016 5:30:51 GMT -6
I understand your concerns CastleDan and actually, I would be worried too... if Iga-sama was not involved. I would think Iga-sama would oversee each room to make sure it fit his vision... and I doubt "every" room will be procedurally generated. I would think Iga-sama would want to personally work on certain areas himself. I would think every room will get a tweak or two before they say "there, its done..." I think people are being so positive because we believe Iga-sama's vision and he wouldn't let us down... even with procedurally generated rooms. But really, can you imagine the work they would have to go though if they hand crafted the whole castle from scratch? What I see is... let me see... Oh! like a baker who gets his assistants to bake a humongous three tiered cake and the baker decorates it, from top to bottom, and the whole thing looks amazing... but in with Bloodsatained Iga-sama can control the flavor too  Crap! Now I want cake... |
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Post by CastleDan on Oct 7, 2016 7:25:03 GMT -6
I understand your concerns CastleDan and actually, I would be worried too... if Iga-sama was not involved. I would think Iga-sama would oversee each room to make sure it fit his vision... and I doubt "every" room will be procedurally generated. I would think Iga-sama would want to personally work on certain areas himself. I would think every room will get a tweak or two before they say "there, its done..." I think people are being so positive because we believe Iga-sama's vision and he wouldn't let us down... even with procedurally generated rooms. But really, can you imagine the work they would have to go though if they hand crafted the whole castle from scratch? What I see is... let me see... Oh! like a baker who gets his assistants to bake a humongous three tiered cake and the baker decorates it, from top to bottom, and the whole thing looks amazing... but in with Bloodsatained Iga-sama can control the flavor too Crap! Now I want cake... Yeah but that goes back to my point. Maybe it wouldn't have been a bad idea to have a slightly smaller castle but in return a more quality one. I trust in IGA but it's worth remembering the castle designs in the later games were bad to me so I've already been disappointed in that sense. My excitement from this game stemmed on them having a larger budget and more time so I had hopes that the castle's design would be very well crafted with a lot of personal touch like SOTN's. So little things like this WORRY me. Granted, I don't know all the details it's just a voice of concern. It's just reminding me of the DS game days where the castle design felt like an understandable thing due to time constraints but it STILL sounds like they have time constraints which is why they're doing this, so I'm getting bad feelings about it |
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Post by BalancedHydra on Oct 7, 2016 9:09:06 GMT -6
I understand your concerns CastleDan and actually, I would be worried too... if Iga-sama was not involved. I would think Iga-sama would oversee each room to make sure it fit his vision... and I doubt "every" room will be procedurally generated. I would think Iga-sama would want to personally work on certain areas himself. I would think every room will get a tweak or two before they say "there, its done..." I think people are being so positive because we believe Iga-sama's vision and he wouldn't let us down... even with procedurally generated rooms. But really, can you imagine the work they would have to go though if they hand crafted the whole castle from scratch? What I see is... let me see... Oh! like a baker who gets his assistants to bake a humongous three tiered cake and the baker decorates it, from top to bottom, and the whole thing looks amazing... but in with Bloodsatained Iga-sama can control the flavor too Crap! Now I want cake... Yeah but that goes back to my point. Maybe it wouldn't have been a bad idea to have a slightly smaller castle but in return a more quality one. I trust in IGA but it's worth remembering the castle designs in the later games were bad to me so I've already been disappointed in that sense. My excitement from this game stemmed on them having a larger budget and more time so I had hopes that the castle's design would be very well crafted with a lot of personal touch like SOTN's. So little things like this WORRY me. Granted, I don't know all the details it's just a voice of concern. It's just reminding me of the DS game days where the castle design felt like an understandable thing due to time constraints but it STILL sounds like they have time constraints which is why they're doing this, so I'm getting bad feelings about it I get what you're saying and I too worry a bit about the little details (comes with doing accounting for a living) but here is one thing we probably haven't considered yet. When Iga pitched his game to us and the publishers, he already had in mind, or shortly thereafter, how to create his castle. Ideally, I would think that the ProGen stuff will handle the a good chunk of the castle but the finer stuff will be dealt by the crew. Saves on manpower and time that way. |
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Oct 7, 2016 9:13:20 GMT -6
I don't think it's time constraints so much as efficiency and quality of life improvements. They have the time now, but they need a set of developers that know how better to use the features of Unreal 4 so that they're not manually doing something that would look the same if the tools filled in those gaps. I don't look at it as so much of an artistic compromise as just them only using hand tools because they aren't sure how to properly operate the power tools, which would yield very similar or the same results.
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Post by Galamoth on Oct 7, 2016 9:37:06 GMT -6
I understand your concerns CastleDan and actually, I would be worried too... if Iga-sama was not involved. I would think Iga-sama would oversee each room to make sure it fit his vision... and I doubt "every" room will be procedurally generated. I would think Iga-sama would want to personally work on certain areas himself. I would think every room will get a tweak or two before they say "there, its done..." I think people are being so positive because we believe Iga-sama's vision and he wouldn't let us down... even with procedurally generated rooms. But really, can you imagine the work they would have to go though if they hand crafted the whole castle from scratch? What I see is... let me see... Oh! like a baker who gets his assistants to bake a humongous three tiered cake and the baker decorates it, from top to bottom, and the whole thing looks amazing... but in with Bloodsatained Iga-sama can control the flavor too Crap! Now I want cake... Yeah but that goes back to my point. Maybe it wouldn't have been a bad idea to have a slightly smaller castle but in return a more quality one. I trust in IGA but it's worth remembering the castle designs in the later games were bad to me so I've already been disappointed in that sense. My excitement from this game stemmed on them having a larger budget and more time so I had hopes that the castle's design would be very well crafted with a lot of personal touch like SOTN's. So little things like this WORRY me. Granted, I don't know all the details it's just a voice of concern. It's just reminding me of the DS game days where the castle design felt like an understandable thing due to time constraints but it STILL sounds like they have time constraints which is why they're doing this, so I'm getting bad feelings about it I've got to say, though: It really wouldn't have mattered if Gebel's Castle ended up being smaller than PoR's Castle (the smallest Castle in the Metroidvania games; with 497 Rooms). Procedural generation would still be used to help develop the Castle's interior rooms. Just remember that, despite the obvious attention to detail and personal touch, Symphony of the Night's 942 Rooms (+948 Inverted) had plenty of procedurally-generated assets as well. |
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