Procedural Generation VS handcrafted Scenarios

Probably just your computer.  I can see all of the images on my screen just fine.

www.castlevaniacrypt.com/img/dos/maps/dos-castle.jpg

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EDIT: Works in Firefox, but not Chrome for some reason.

EDIT: I can see the images now.  Weird.

Yes, it did.  I'm just noting a relatively unfamiliar concept for layout found only in Dawn of Sorrow that I personally liked.

It almost passes for a completely different area, despite being counted as part of the Wizardry Lab (not to mention the same bgm, "Dracula's Tears").

I'd like to see something like that again in Bloodstained.

Actually really enjoy this deeper look into castle design and I want to further elaborate my point with proof of why I think Aria is right up there with SOTN and how the other games aren't as close.

As you saw with my demonstration of SOTN'S underwater area you can see the very same characteristics in the Aria of sorrow Map.




Notice how each area within this location has it's own unique look,





Notice how the repetition sticks close to the areas they're repeating and then uses unique locations to separate each of them? It's not overbloated, it doesn't spam repeated hallways that look exactly the same with no payoff moments.

Maybe it's not so much the repetition but more it spaces things out, it provides interesting geometry, and gives you enough unique areas per location to make it worth exploring. It allows you to have a clear concept of where EACH area is whereas the later games you HEAVILY relied on the map.

I feel like Aria and SOTN manage this better than games like Portrait or Ecclesia. They all have repetition but there's an abundance of it in the later games with less geometry to the environments and less uniqueness to rooms.





When you take a look at Dawn of Sorrow which the same person worked on Aria's map you realize the main issue with it. The locations look beautiful that's not the issue, the issue is that with increased size they duplicate MORE repetitive looking areas and string them together on a much larger scale which would call for MORE unique rooms but it feels like less, on top of that the areas are more bunched together which causes confusion in design. Aria the areas were smaller but because of that more concise with a greater sense of familiarity and uniqueness. The lab being a huge culprit of that.

Which brings me to my point, the fear that this big castle will be filled with MORE repetition or rooms that look very similar to everything else i've seen and populated less with interesting layouts and unique locations.

Thanks! I do consider that, and I totally get that it could lead to more variety room to room but that wasn't so much my issue with it. I'll break it down further.

I worry that it'll basically override the artistic personal touch in the sense that, they have statues in the procedural "SYSTEM" so to speak and it'll spit out different takes on that same statue in different areas. You look at it and go....oh it's based on the one i've already seen 10 times in this area. My point is, I'm not looking for small changes like, in the boat section of the demo where you go through a bunch of the same hallways but this time it has water in the hallway. I want more UNIQUE rooms, more unique geometry, which the boat section didn't have enough of considering how dense ( stacked) the stage is. It's the perfect example of my concern actually, and while it being a boat makes it more susceptible to my issues it's still a worry.

So yeah there could be little touches here and there, but I'm worried if they end up relying too much on procedural elements because of the size of the castle it'll kill more of the personal touch that would be HEAVILY needed in a big castle. As much procedural elements SOTN or ARIA could have had, you can tell it has a lot of personal touch throughout which makes the castle memorable and easier to navigate.

I feel like I could see a pic of Alucard in the castle and be able to tell pretty easily where it's located just by geometry alone, that's what makes it such a success. They gave it just enough variety within each area to help navigate in a meaningful way.

What bugged me about games like Order which I realize is very loved here is that the very cool background art of certain areas that could be big pay off moments after repeated sections tend to be repeated sections themselves effectively making it less cool.


When I first saw this background design I was like, whoa this is so bizzare and cool. The geometry of it is wild! Then I realized this look was basically stacked on each other a bunch of times. Ruining the enjoyment of it. So not only was it repeated but it was so bunched together that it almost felt like....hey extend this area more ...okay.. COPY PASTE COPY PASTE...okay it's longer. Should you, give the castle some room to make it feel more natural? Nah...this works.


When yo ulook at symphony's castle map... The entrance area has decent variety and geometry and it really let's you feel like you're getting into the heart of the castle before you get to it's next section.

CastleDan, waterway area is the prime example of reused assets and you pick it as an example of an unique look, pointing out the how creatively the floor is shaped. Well, thing is, the shape and positioning of the floor and platforms isn't a part of the background, it is those little, repeating patterns in the, y'know, background that are.

Your other argument against PG is that the reuse of assets will cause increased background repetition as the overall size increases.
Well, there are two issues with this argument; First off, you don't account for the scale of the assets used. If the size of the assets is proportional to the size of the themed section, then this will not cause any problems.
The second issue with your argument is that you also make assumptions on the size of the thematic blocks. You think that just because the size of the castle will increase, that so will the size of those areas, completely disregarding the fact that a bigger castle could just have more areas as big (or possibly smaller) as in the other Igavanias.
Do note that I was kind enough to disregard the fact that you don't distinguish backgrounds from the room layout and traversable parts of the room while addressing this.

So, basically, your arguments (and your concerns) aren't valid as they are based on misconceptions.

Nyahahaha, you have an interesting way of approaching conversation that can be a bit off putting. Pure Miriam for example takes the approach of trying to understand someone of potentially a different viewpoint, whereas you are trying to disprove the validity of their argument. If it works for you that's great but it comes off as rude to tell me my argument isn't valid because of how you think about it.

Now, I never said the waterway in SOTN doesn't resuse background assets, what I said was there's enough person touch throughout the location,  that give into a memorable feel that doesn't get confusing. It wasn't the BEST area to use for that example but that was my point, even areas with extreme background repetition it still managed to feel hand crafted whether it was or not.

Pure Miriam, yes you nailed it on the head. Those are great examples of what I'm talking about but I think it's important to note I went off on a tangent on Castle design and Layout which wasn't REALLY about the procedural elements. My procedural concerns were stated however when I mentioned the example of a statue. Let's say they create a statue in the procedural space and then the program alters it and mixes it up and re-uses it in various rooms. I rather them created different statues entirely for different rooms than the previous idea. I'm more concerned about OVERUSE of it, not that it's being used period. The Castle's have gotten more cluttered in recent games and whenever that's happened repetition seems to always increase with very little variation or like you showed with Order, color switches or slightly different looks put onto to the same area. I don't know how stuff like that can even be allowed to make a game, which is why it concerns me there was a focus on this in the interview.

Hope that clears it up better.

Proper arguments?  You could try posting something helpful.  And while you are at it, try reading the forum rules.  You are supposed to be as constructive as possible on the forums.  All I've been reading from your posts is destructive criticism.  Your posts are only lashing out at castledan's ability to pose an argument.  Maybe that wasn't your intent, but it feels like flaming (and border-line trolling).

I'm all in favor of the layout of each area in Gebel's Castle being as hand-crafted as humanly possible. I am aware of the fact that all Igavanias have used procedural generation to an extent, however.

For the record, CastleDan 's worries (and the worries of others) are healthy concerns. I just can't help but feel optimistic about Bloodstained, judging from the progress that has been made so far in its development.