Cale
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The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
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Post by Cale on Jan 25, 2016 13:33:41 GMT -6
I couldn't find the sunken city of R'lyeh. . .
If you see this place, you're basically in my backyard though. The coordinates are 47°9′S 126°43′W if you wanted to try to put it in At least, according to lovecraft. Ya, but it's submerged, so you wouldn't be able to find it =P
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
Posts: 624
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Great Old One
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Cale
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
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Post by Cale on Jan 25, 2016 13:30:05 GMT -6
So here's what I have so farWhat do you think makes a map useful to you? Show where you are, where you've been, and places you haven't yet been. Potentially things you've found and things you haven'tIf you're lost and don't know where to go, what would be the best way to show you how to progress? I like grid based maps, where it doesn't show detail. It makes finding secrets more exciting. I think Astaroth has a good idea, being able to make notes on the map would be immensely helpful. Besides that I like colour codes for certain rooms. (Save room, teleport room) I wouldn't want the map to tell us where to go, like where bosses are, or where the next objective is, mostly because metroidvanias are about exploring. I agree with Cale in that I'm not sure there is a decent way to do this without spoiling some of the exploration aspects of the game. I mean traditionally in Igavanias you are not given a destination of any kind.If you feel that a map is too cluttered with unnecessary information, what could be left out? Not sure on this one....Do you want to know how much of the map you have uncovered (e.g. 78%)? What about percentage of items or secrets? and as for % map revealed. . . I am divided again. I like to know if I am missing something, but maybe only in new game +? Knowing how much castle I have uncovered before finishing the game gives me an idea of how long I have left. Since this is Iga's biggest castle, I want to be surprised. Also putting my support behind the grid-based mapping, for reasons stated here. I'm liking the idea noted above of a completion percentage only being displayed when you have a cleared save and/or New Game+ unlocked. I would agree that the stat should be there but only visible after clearing the game at least once on any difficulty. I also think that it might be fun to have a separate percentage just for secret locations. Kind of like the >100% map coverage for SotN.Ok this next one is kind of a fairly long one....I think that one of the things that makes a map "good" is when it not only shows where you have been, but also where you could go. That's why I like the Castlevania grid-style maps. They make it perfectly clear where there are doors to other rooms, and when you have reached a dead end (secret rooms excluded). The only problem I have with that style is that it doesn't tell me what's inside a room. I'm not talking about marking rooms with save spots and teleports, but more along the lines of locked doors, inaccessible areas and general places of interest. An example would be; coming to a door that's only accessible by jumping high or flying, so I give up and go somewhere else. After a while I wonder why I haven't opened that door and I go back to try and open it, only to end up wasting my time because I still can't get to it. Another example would be one of the quests in Portrait of Ruin. I remember finding a room with a piano, recognizing that it was an important room and thinking that I should remember where it is. But when I finally got the quest to go there I had forgotten where that room was and I had a lot of trouble finding it again. Some games take care of situations like that by automatically marking things they think you should remember on your map, but that isn't usually isn't enough and it takes away some of the fun from finding the secrets for yourself. Some games let you place markers on the map, but unless there are a good variety of markers, it's easy to forget what exactly they mean. And of course, even if certain games allow it, and you have a keyboard, stopping to write a text as a reminder alongside the marker isn't that fun. An ideal solution for me would be if the game let you take pictures of the room you were in and mark where that picture was taken on the map. That way, if you're looking at the map and see you've marked something, but don't remember what it was, you could just look at the picture instead of going all the way there. Or, if you're looking for something specific, you could browse through your pictures and locate it that way. Or you could take pictures of interesting scenery or enemies and maybe share them with your friends through the asynchronous multiplayer function. I know most consoles and platforms already have those features, but it would be nice if they were built into the game. And assuming that an actual camera, like the one Shanoa had in Order of Ecclesia, wouldn't be out of place in Bloodstained and IGA's story, maybe Miriam (or another playable character) could find one and use it for more than just taking pictures. Maybe revealing secrets, solving puzzles etc. Of course one of the problems with this idea is that the pictures would require a lot of storage space. Even if such a feature was implemented the pictures might have to be at lower quality or limited in number. Even so, I would be happy to have something like 20 or even 10 picture slots that I can use through the game. I like the grid style map, its simple clean and gives you an idea of your path without giving you everything on a platter, i would like to have an ingame way to mark my map with notes so i can put things like "high ledge" "locked door" "item", stuff that along with a journal keeping track of story events would be a great combination for people who dont get to play for a while or are backtracking and can go "oh, i dont have something to reach that yet, i can continue on" at a glance I actually like the "camera" idea. Maybe you could make it Miriam "taking a mental picture" that's basically a screen shot that is really blurry/de-rezed with platform and wall edges highlighted (to make referencing details a little easier). As an added feature you could make the pictures time based in the higher difficulties. I.E. Miriam's memory fading/corrupting over time, which could be an interesting game mechanic. Also, you could put a limit on the total number of "pictures" taken at any one time as Miriam Personally the one issue that I ALWAYS had with the map was spotting the doors (discovered or not) on the map. So maybe lighting up doors you haven't been through with a blinking marker of some sort might be handy for navigation.
Now I would also agree that the idea of "auto marking" items of interest makes things too simple. Though maybe that can be handled by having the game only do that on an "easy" or "beginner" difficulty setting and not do it on harder difficulties. Now color coding rooms like shop, teleport, and/or save rooms I think would be acceptable. And SotN, CoM, AoS, HoD, and others have set a precedent for this.
I do like the idea of having color coded markers you can drop around the map that maybe you can attach notes to, if you so wish... And as far as the ability to enter notes on consoles vs. PCs, anyone who has ever dealt with this knows that in the case of console instead of writing soliloquies on what the point represents like you might on a PC you get very apt at coming up with meaning full 1-3 word (or more) descriptions that are just meaning full enough that you can remember what they represent but minimize how much "typing" you have to do. So as far as that aspect of things go I don't think that the console vs. PC argument has much impact. Maybe a given room can be selected in the map for additional details, such as which enemies are there, and remaining chests in that room (not counting those hidden) for ease of backtracking along similar lines? I like the enemies idea, if it's a huge castle it will be hard to remember where to hunt for drops. Having the area say what enemies you have already encountered would be cool. Now this I think would be a GREAT idea. In fact, since most Igavanias have pretty much always had an in game bestiary of some sort I think it would be great to link these two things together. Make it so from the map you can select a room and see what enemies are there, if the room is completely explored (minus hidden elements), any notes you've recorded, markers you've dropped, or images you've recorded, maybe even what the drops that are obtainable. Then from the bestiary there's a "population" option that then displays the map and highlights rooms that you've seen that enemy in.I actually thought of a system like that (and apparently strider does that too) where your char has a bubble around the map cursor and the map fills in based on your exact position instead of a grid, its a neat idea but imagine having 99.9% of the map done and now youre searching through this massive map for the places where theres a tiny gap cause there was a platforming section or a long ceiling (this could be made less difficult by having area% for each section but then you are outright telling the player that theyre done which might color your willingness to keep exploring or give away secrets too easily) If you look at the grid in sotn you can find areas where you have to move to a specific spot on the edge of a gridpoint to trigger a map square (i can think of at least 2 areas, ones a couple places in chapel along the ledges, and theres a place in inverted where you have to swim up along a slope in wolf form for one square and superjump into a corner to get the other square), its not perfect 1 screen/1 grid square there, the handhelds however do use 1/1 almost exclusively, but then if you look at loi or cod the map reveals based on a grid but the edges of the map follow the contours of the area perhaps the grid could be kept to make spotting holes much easier but make a grid square equal half a screen instead of a full screen with a general outline of the boundaries of each area? Not really sure how I feel about this one... I mean I think that the grid map is most definitely the way to go on this one, but I don't think that it would really be that big of an issue in terms of being a limit to the castle design. I mean, personally, I think the only reason that it has been any kind of a limit up to this point is that most of the more recent Igavania's have been on the DS which has a fairly limited screen size and resolution. This meant that the total size of the map had an initial inherent hard size limit which in turn meant that for any map that was going to be a single screen map with no pan or zoom had an inherent hard limit to its square footage. i.e. you only have so many grid blocks available. This means that the castle design, if it is going to be of ANY significant size or complexity, is going to be very dense with the shape of the rooms dictated by proximity to other rooms and minimizing unused space on the map. I don't see that being a concern here. We are already talking about making a HUGE map, so I would imagine that making a map that pans and zooms is kind of a given at this point. If that's the case then there is no geometrical limit to the design and layout of the rooms. Just look at SotN vs. HoD or AoS in terms of map density.
SotN:
Vs. HoD and AoS
See how SotN has HUGE holes in the map and whole sections where there is some long path way around an area or off to a remote area? That's what gave the castle the feeling of being this MASSIVE place. In reality the HoD and AoS maps actually have more square footage used, but feel less massive because most of the rooms are just side to side hallways that snake up and down or side to side, because there's nowhere else for them to go on the map! If those same maps had been allowed to "stretch out" and be more straight paths than snakes the maps would have felt much bigger. Now this is not accounting for the issue of reused rooms, layouts, enemies, etc. That certainly doesn't help. But even there, I think that most of those issues came from limitations that Konami put on the game in terms of dev. time, money, and man power to do more things. Also, the system they were being released for brought in its own inherent limitations on things.
In short, I do NOT see the grid style map being a limitation for Bloodstained.
Now I could see:but then if you look at loi or cod the map reveals based on a grid but the edges of the map follow the contours of the area That I think could be a good technique to make the map less "cookie cutter". Make the map still a grid, near/semi 1-to-1 screen-to-point style map, but if the walls in an area only allow you access the left half or lower half or upper half of the block, the lines shown on the map would reflect that.
Last thing:One thing though that was really cool about ooe was the map for wygol village, that rough charcoal sketch look was really cool and i think itd be interesting to see again applied to a full area as a concept art, i worry itd make the maps ingame a little too busy and itd hinder note placement Maybe what you do is say that the design of the castle was inspired by either the design of another castle that Gebel had been to or seen the plans for once before, or that the design of the castle was in part based on something that the alchemists were working on. From there you might have Miriam find torn up or burnt pieces of said "original" blueprint of the castle as you explore that show you some areas of the castle and not necessarily in the order you "should" explore them in.... In fact I would say that you should NOT discover them in the order that you "should" explore them in. But when you open your map screen those areas are shown as a crude sketch or penciled technical drawing (as the story dictates) that retain the ripped/torn/burn look that you'd expect but as you explore the castle those blocks get "overwritten" or overlaid with the "normal" in-game map notation.
Maybe what you get is something that looks like this:
That's full of marks, tares, stains, burns, and maybe even spots that are marked up with notes or crossed off, with each "fragment" of the original map you get. But as you explore the map squares in the image would get overwritten by or overlaid with the normal SotN-esque style map.
Now obviously the map I displayed is a top down style map not a side view map, but I think it illustrates the point that I'm trying to make. Amazing! All of this! ^^^^
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
Posts: 624
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Post by Cale on Jan 24, 2016 17:37:33 GMT -6
I couldn't find the sunken city of R'lyeh. . . If you see this place, you're basically in my backyard though.
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
Posts: 624
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The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
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ArtPlay
Jan 22, 2016 18:41:31 GMT -6
Post by Cale on Jan 22, 2016 18:41:31 GMT -6
Canada.
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
Posts: 624
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Cale
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
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Post by Cale on Jan 21, 2016 23:15:46 GMT -6
I am sorry if you feel I am shooting anything down. I personally feel that I am adding more options instead of shooting down ideas. I am simply playing devil's advocate. I wholly agree shield attacks are cool. I am also arguing that it would be fun for some of us to have a completely defensive option. As for the "adding more slots", Diablo II was my original example, I will go into further detail. You have a left and right hand slot, but you have a second left and right hand slot. By pushing the 'w' key you would switch between the two sets of items. So another example would be Darksouls series. You would equip two left hand and two right hand items, you could switch between these at any time by pressing left or right on the direction pad. In this way you can have more slots for weapons/shields/rods/wands/guns without having to go into a menu to switch items. You could theoretically have dozens of pre set weapons to toggle through. You wouldn't have to give up ANY offensive options, you'd just end up adding defensive options IF you wanted. You could just as well have 4, 6, 8, 10 swords equipped at once if having 1 shield would be too much of a burden. And as for omni directional shields? Yes that IS what I am arguing for. . . You could block above you, below you, in front of you, heck if you held the button holding the shield and used thumbtacks for directional blocking you could have 360° blocking. As for a precedence to shields in metroidvania games I feel SotN is the perfect example. Just because a portion of the people playing didn't like/ or use shields doesn't mean that they weren't useful. It depends on the person using the tool, not the tool itself. Computers don't make mistakes, the people programming them do. A) I mean you can say you have a theoretical infinite number swapable equipment sets but if you want them to be easily hot swappable you have only so many buttons to work with considering all the other actions that have to be mapped to the controller. Once you get above 3 I feel you start to make a mess of things and run out of convenient space not to mention needlessly up complexity. You mention Diablo II but that has completely different gameplay. It's also a PC/Mac exclusive game. I'm not sure how Diablo III plays (which is on consoles and computers) but I can't say "this entirely different genre with totally different combat system pulls it off" is a convincing argument. B) When I say omnidirectional I mean like Smash Bros where when you put up your "shield" a bubble appears around you. What you are talking about is putting up a shield along one side of your choice given the situation. Totally different things with totally different applications. C) SOTN is not a good example of sheilds being used well. I mean if you want to think so whatever but this isn't a point we can negotiate. I've played the game. Others have played the game. Shields suck. They aren't worth using as they were implemented. Either that needs to change or shields have no purpose coming back. Again the fact that they were dropped and seem not to be missed to me (the few people in favor of shields here are literally the only people I've ever seen care about them in the Castlevania series) from Igavanias and not present in most Metroidvania games should really be telling. I feel like some people are asking "why not?" when the question they should be asking is "why?" That's the sorts of question you need to ask when to write, paint, draw, program, sculpt or generally just create anything. If you don't you end up with bloat and half-baked or poorly implemented ideas. As I've said multiple times, I have no issue with bringing shields back but they HAVE to change significantly. They were not well implemented last time. I can't imagine pushing left on the direction pad 2 times to equip the weapon you want is complex. The similarities to directing your shield and the bubble in a smash game isn't much of a stretch either in my opinion. And it seems that your opinion is fact regarding shields sucking in SotN so I have no desire to continue discussing something that isn't an opinion. If you want to disagree for the sake of disagreeing you may. I have said my point and feel I have more than explained all possibilities. And if you aren't willing to take inspiration from a non Iga exclusive -vania styled game in any way shape or form that too is your choice. I feel our discussion will only breed hostility so I would like to end my discussion in this thread on a positive. I like the idea posted earlier by CastleDan. I think giving shields an attack, while maintaining a block ability will appease most people. I can't imagine people objecting to something that does damage to enemies.
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
Posts: 624
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Cale
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
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Post by Cale on Jan 21, 2016 22:09:00 GMT -6
I like the enemies idea, if it's a huge castle it will be hard to remember where to hunt for drops. Having the area say what enemies you have already encountered would be cool.
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
Posts: 624
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The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
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Post by Cale on Jan 21, 2016 21:17:27 GMT -6
I like grid based maps, where it doesn't show detail. It makes finding secrets more exciting. I think Astaroth has a good idea, being able to make notes on the map would be immensely helpful. Besides that I like colour codes for certain rooms. (Save room, teleport room) I wouldn't want the map to tell us where to go, like where bosses are, or where the next objective is, mostly because metroidvanias are about exploring. I am unsure about naming zones. Might be cool, but might reveal too much info. and as for % map revealed. . . I am divided again. I like to know if I am missing something, but maybe only in new game +? Knowing how much castle I have uncovered before finishing the game gives me an idea of how long I have left. Since this is Iga's biggest castle, I want to be surprised.
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
Posts: 624
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Cale
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
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Post by Cale on Jan 21, 2016 21:05:24 GMT -6
i think a good way to solve the issue for some people is to give the shields an offensive capability as well like I believe crocodile said. Maybe the shields have an attack function as well as a defensive block. That way for fans who like shields and the defensive nature of them that's there, and for those that find them as a useless item that takes up an offensive space can now have it as an offensive option as well. Sounds great, I wouldn't have to use the attack function if I didn't want to and people who want an offensive option don't have to use the defensive capabilities. Seems like a win win!
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
Posts: 624
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Apr 8, 2021 18:19:41 GMT -6
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Cale
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
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Post by Cale on Jan 21, 2016 21:02:38 GMT -6
I should probably specify something though, I am against shields as an inventory item because I find them to be a waste of space. If there was a specialized blocking button then I would be fine with the idea. What about specific inventory categories? Shields could be a separate category. You would never even have to touch them. They could be last on the list of items to choose from. 1 Handed Swords | 2 Handed Swords | Maces | Axes | Ranged | Spells | Items | Shields Just pick a hand then have a drop down list for each category? Nice, neat, tidy.
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
Posts: 624
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Cale
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
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Post by Cale on Jan 21, 2016 20:36:35 GMT -6
A) I don't have a problem with shields. I have a problem with shields playing like they did in SOTN. They were just an inferior option (and less fun in my and I feel many others opinions) and matched poorly with the conventions of the genre. I offered one (of probably many) "solutions" but you shot it down. Why? I don't see value in bringing back a weapon class that would inherently trail behind the others unless you are willing to make balance/design tweaks. As for "adding more slots" I'm not sure I follow. You need a free hand to use a shield and Miriam will only have two hands (two attack slots) at max. So a shield will take out an offensive option. The only way I can see to overcome this is with a "block" button perhaps but then that wouldn't be using a shield and it would have to be omni-directional (like the "shields" in Smash Bros) to be effective in a Metroidvania game but that would clearly not be anything like the shields you are arguing for. B) I mean if you prefer slower paced battles or what not that's totally fine. There's no need to invoke hyperbole by invoking QTEs though. It's not about "having options" its about making mechanics and weapons that work in harmony with the natural design philosophies of the genre. Again, please point me to the game that is paced similarly to any of the Igavanias, Metroids, etc. that use shields in a manner similar to SOTN and have them be a broadly useful (i.e. they are useful against a wide range of enemies and situations) and successful tool. The fact that they were mostly dropped from future Igavanias and that you'll have trouble finding such a game (I'd imagine) should be telling. However Cale seems to be pushing back against that and shooting me down? If y'all want shields to play out like the did in SOTN then I just can't agree they have any place in this game here. I am sorry if you feel I am shooting anything down. I personally feel that I am adding more options instead of shooting down ideas. I am simply playing devil's advocate. I wholly agree shield attacks are cool. I am also arguing that it would be fun for some of us to have a completely defensive option. As for the "adding more slots", Diablo II was my original example, I will go into further detail. You have a left and right hand slot, but you have a second left and right hand slot. By pushing the 'w' key you would switch between the two sets of items. So another example would be Darksouls series. You would equip two left hand and two right hand items, you could switch between these at any time by pressing left or right on the direction pad. In this way you can have more slots for weapons/shields/rods/wands/guns without having to go into a menu to switch items. You could theoretically have dozens of pre set weapons to toggle through. You wouldn't have to give up ANY offensive options, you'd just end up adding defensive options IF you wanted. You could just as well have 4, 6, 8, 10 swords equipped at once if having 1 shield would be too much of a burden. And as for omni directional shields? Yes that IS what I am arguing for. . . You could block above you, below you, in front of you, heck if you held the button holding the shield and used thumbtacks for directional blocking you could have 360° blocking. As for a precedence to shields in metroidvania games I feel SotN is the perfect example. Just because a portion of the people playing didn't like/ or use shields doesn't mean that they weren't useful. It depends on the person using the tool, not the tool itself. Computers don't make mistakes, the people programming them do.
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Cale
Great Old One
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The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
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The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
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Post by Cale on Jan 21, 2016 14:22:42 GMT -6
A) The crux of the matter is that to use shields you have to give up offensive options. The only way that makes sense is if you need to defend yourself and the only way to do that is with a shield - i.e. the game has low mobility. In Metroidvania games, exploration is at the heart of the genre and that in turn means high mobility is important. If you are highly mobile, you are naturally drawn to solve the issue of "how not to die" by dodging rather than blocking. I mean think about it - can you name me a single Metroidvania game that uses shields in a traditional sense? In terms of action games that have high mobility, I can only think think of the Mega Man Zero series but there the Shield Boomerang can can be used as a thrown disk weapon (i.e. what I already suggested). Devil May Cry has defensive stances and techniques but those flow into parries and martial arts - you are never forced to sacrifice offensive options. Either way, the combat system is totally unlike what you see in any of the Igavania games. I feel like your enjoyment of shields extends to you being a big fan of Dark Souls? Sorry but those games don't have combat like Metroidvania games. The point I'm trying to get at is the way Igavanias are paced and the way combat works, the use of traditional shields are dis-incentivized. It has historically always been better to not use shields and I can't imagine having gameplay change in a way they would encourage you to use shields in a traditional way but also not be a departure from the expectations of backers that wouldn't make the game less fun. B) I really have no idea what to tell you if you think "dodging" is boring or played out. I would also make sure I look to the boss battle that cap off the Igavanias (PoR, OoE) rather than ones that start it off (SOTN) as I feel overall boss design has improved over time. I expect bosses in Bloodstained to be more like the later group (especially considering the type of games Inticreates tends to make). A) Then what about adding more slots for offensive options? Diablo II had a weapon swap button, you could theoretically hold 4 weapons at once. My question is how many offensive options do we need compared to defensive options? So far it looks pretty balanced, but again we don't know details yet. Spells might only be offensive, useable items might only be defensive, right and left hand slots might only be offensive, we don't know yet. And yes, historically shields haven't been as useful as say the Crissaegrim. But again, we are not looking for optimal play style here. If it were just about doing things the best way, then we could all beat SotN in under 10 minutes. (Being literal about the 10 mins) I also recall things like the Axe Armor being not so mobile. . . Not sure why that's in the game at all if Iga wants us to dodge everything. I am a fan of the Darksouls series. They have nice shield mechanics, I also enjoyed using shield in SotN without the Shield Rod. Crazy huh? But then again I also liked to use sub-items for damage. B) You don't have to tell me anything about me thinking dodging is boring. It is just my opinion. To me it's like QTEs. I am FORCED to play that way. The same argument you made about shields. We just disagree on this point. I want to be able to dodge, and block, and parry, and take a hit to the face. Having many options is better to me than forcing me to play only one way. Just a preference. Since this is going to have an RPG aspect to it, I was hoping I could play in a style different from the "norm".
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Cale
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Post by Cale on Jan 21, 2016 13:47:57 GMT -6
Q: Did staff consider an orthographic style in Bloodstained? A: "We tested it out, but I wasn't too impressed by it. I thought that was a good opportunity to try something else."
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
Posts: 624
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Great Old One
58
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Apr 8, 2021 18:19:41 GMT -6
791
Cale
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
624
Jun 11, 2015 3:45:35 GMT -6
June 2015
cale
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Post by Cale on Jan 21, 2016 13:19:32 GMT -6
Why does a shield need to have offensive capabilities? Weapons don't come with a block or parry ability, and when they do it's just as often as finding an offensive shield. What about different defensive abilities? A shield that makes an object to hide behind for big attacks? A shield that absorbs an attack and lets you unleash it at a later time? What if you can change the direction of the shield? Could be used to block attacks that rain from the sky, or maybe block a spike jutting up through the ground? A shield doesn't have to be just in front of you. I like to imagine that some attacks are unavoidable. That adds to difficulty. (Kill this enemy fast or you will be taken down eventually). But adding a shield might make that one aspect of the fight easier. Everyone is all about being aggressive in games today. They don't think playing strategically can be fun. Learning a pattern and dodging attacks is fine, but you can make a fight even more complex if you also have the option to block. See the issue here is that you are constructing scenarios in which you NEED shields rather making shields something you want to use over other weapons under normal gameplay scenarios. "Unavoidable" attacks are just not something you see in this genre and IGA AND Inticreates has already gone on record that you will see no such thing for any boss encounter so I'm not sure why I'd expect that for normal enemy encounters. Unavoidable attacks aren't hard, they are just cheap. Combat in -vania games is not devoid of strategy and isn't about just YOLO-SWAGGING enemies to death. I mean yes, SOTN was too easy but you can't roll your face on your DS and expect to beat OoE. You've got to be quick on your fingers and quick with your thinking. You're not adding complexity (oh I'll just block with this shield because I HAVE too - that's just a binary choice) you are just breaking up pacing. In my example I have a point of reference for "unavoidable" attacks. For the "A shield that makes an object to hide behind for big attacks", what if that was already apart of the boss fight? The ceiling drops boulders you have to dodge, they stay on screen until the boss unleashes an "unavoidable" attack, you hide behind the boulder taking no damage, they are then destroyed. My shield idea could provide cover if you aren't near the environment you want to be near. Using the boulder example again, the bosses head (weak point) is too high off the ground to hit normally, but the boulders are used as stepping stones to jump on, until you are high enough to attack the weak spot. Puzzle boss activated. The shield again would be useful for giving you a boost without negating damage, in fact it would aid you in being aggressive. I don't need to make reasons for shields to be in the game, I am letting shields do work that might already be there. The problem is if I am "constructing scenarios" for a shield to be useful, it is only because I don't know what Iga has planned for us. But seeing as how this is supposed to be his biggest game yet, I would find it rather monotonous if all the bosses are just meat bags you have to attack while simply dodging 1-hit kill attacks from the boss. I've played enough games where dodge is the only mechanic, they bore me now. But if it is all down to people "making shields something you want to use over other weapons under normal gameplay scenarios." I don't see how preventing you from taking damage is something people would actively avoid. Another question is why would people want to use a shield "over" a weapon? It would probably be better to use a weapon AND shield in conjunction. She does have two hands last I checked. Astaroth I love combat shield mechanics ^_^ I am just trying to balance the conversation. In most of the games I play with shields I try using them as a weapon. Mostly Darksouls games are great for this. I always like heavy armour defensive style characters. I hope we get some full plate for Miriam with a spike shield and she just waltzes through a crowd of enemies, spraying enemy blood as she goes!
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
Posts: 624
inherit
Great Old One
58
0
Apr 8, 2021 18:19:41 GMT -6
791
Cale
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
624
Jun 11, 2015 3:45:35 GMT -6
June 2015
cale
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Post by Cale on Jan 21, 2016 12:23:29 GMT -6
Why does a shield need to have offensive capabilities? Weapons don't come with a block or parry ability, and when they do it's just as often as finding an offensive shield. What about different defensive abilities? A shield that makes an object to hide behind for big attacks? A shield that absorbs an attack and lets you unleash it at a later time? What if you can change the direction of the shield? Could be used to block attacks that rain from the sky, or maybe block a spike jutting up through the ground?
A shield doesn't have to be just in front of you.
I like to imagine that some attacks are unavoidable. That adds to difficulty. (Kill this enemy fast or you will be taken down eventually). But adding a shield might make that one aspect of the fight easier. Everyone is all about being aggressive in games today. They don't think playing strategically can be fun. Learning a pattern and dodging attacks is fine, but you can make a fight even more complex if you also have the option to block.
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
Posts: 624
inherit
Great Old One
58
0
Apr 8, 2021 18:19:41 GMT -6
791
Cale
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
624
Jun 11, 2015 3:45:35 GMT -6
June 2015
cale
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Post by Cale on Jan 21, 2016 11:54:53 GMT -6
Ffffffff Gonna be hard to choose man.. But I'm going against the grain here. I choose background 1, character 3. I initially was impressed with background 3, but then I compared the staircase on the left and came to the conclusion that background 1 meshes better with character 3. This is, just like, my opinion yo. ʕ•ﻌ•ʔ One of us! One of us!
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
Posts: 624
inherit
Great Old One
58
0
Apr 8, 2021 18:19:41 GMT -6
791
Cale
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
624
Jun 11, 2015 3:45:35 GMT -6
June 2015
cale
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Post by Cale on Jan 21, 2016 11:23:45 GMT -6
I like shields, I want shields. In the end it's Iga's choice, but I don't see a reason for not having a shield.
Bloodborne made shields a joke. I did not appreciate that. I love that game but they removed an entire play style from my repertoire. Variety is the spice of life. On my umpteenth play through I might want to try something different. You can also get some cool lore in the game with shields.
If most peoples concerns are shields taking to much time to implement, or costs too much. . . I don't know how to respond to that. It's a game, anything being added costs time and money. If the majority of people didn't want swords implemented in this game would it still be a good idea? What about the time and cost of making enemies. We could have Mudmen and Bosses, no other enemies, time and cost are now reduced. Doesn't seem so fun and engaging though.
It all comes down to preference.
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
Posts: 624
inherit
Great Old One
58
0
Apr 8, 2021 18:19:41 GMT -6
791
Cale
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
624
Jun 11, 2015 3:45:35 GMT -6
June 2015
cale
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Post by Cale on Jan 21, 2016 10:55:51 GMT -6
So, someone in a specific anonymous forum made this: A mix between the two shaders. IMO it's perfect, though I don't know why. Thoughts? Not a fan. It's a pretty enough piece of art, but one of the best things about Shader 3 is the aggressive shading(and even then I think it could stand to be more so), which helps it maintain visual coherence at multiple scales. This one goes back to soft shading, which is just going to look flat once you zoom out. Agree with this, it looks nice but I like the bold black outlines.
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
Posts: 624
inherit
Great Old One
58
0
Apr 8, 2021 18:19:41 GMT -6
791
Cale
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
624
Jun 11, 2015 3:45:35 GMT -6
June 2015
cale
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Post by Cale on Jan 21, 2016 9:40:57 GMT -6
I am a fan of C 3/ B 1.
I am glad we have such a wide range of opinions on this. Personally I like the blue tint to Miriam for C 3, and the strong black outline as well. Just a style preference I guess.
And as for the Background I feel B 1 does a better job at blending the shadows. Feels more realistic. Also things are less silvery and bright. Like someone mentioned before, at the far left that extra light is a bit off putting, where is it coming from? Also I dislike that I can see under the stairs so clearly.
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
Posts: 624
inherit
Great Old One
58
0
Apr 8, 2021 18:19:41 GMT -6
791
Cale
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
624
Jun 11, 2015 3:45:35 GMT -6
June 2015
cale
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Post by Cale on Jan 21, 2016 9:32:45 GMT -6
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
Posts: 624
inherit
Great Old One
58
0
Apr 8, 2021 18:19:41 GMT -6
791
Cale
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
624
Jun 11, 2015 3:45:35 GMT -6
June 2015
cale
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Post by Cale on Jan 20, 2016 22:45:05 GMT -6
I have a feeling the camera is going to move with Miriam and change angles as she moves, so lets say you start left screen, the camera will probably be on the left, looking right a bit, then as she gets to the middle of the room it will probably be straight on facing her, then right screen it will be looking left.
This is just a guess, though I get that feeling from the new background. If it does end up this way I think it might be a little . . . not disorienting, but sickening in the movement. Kind of like you would be circling her depending on where she is in the stage, if that makes any sense.
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