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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 16, 2019 23:52:08 GMT -6
I'll tack on the "Asynchronous online multiplayer" onto this thread, as I don't recall seeing it in the "13 free DLCs"
If it got shitcanned that's fine in the cosmic sense of things, but there really needs to be some sort of acknowledgement of it officially.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 16, 2019 20:58:46 GMT -6
Could people simply not do the survey if they feel so strongly against it? What a terrible idea.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 15, 2019 21:49:18 GMT -6
I'm thrilled that I now have this to reference every time somebody wants to make that bad argument. I believe SOTN regular castle is 942 AND inverted doubles for about 1890 rooms. BSROTN without inversion is just shy of 1600. Everyone is right! It just depends on how you want to count. I mean, PoR is north of 1700 with no inverted castle so no, not everybody is right. Not trying to be pedantic here but this has been my biggest issue with the game thus far, the failure to be "Iga's Largest Game." Granted I, and likely many more people, will throw wads of money for castle expanding DLCs, so that's something to keep in mind. Would be way better than just random cosmetics. That being said, I'd be thrilled to see a sequel that makes this game look small by comparison. 3000 rooms or bust.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 15, 2019 21:45:01 GMT -6
It's painfully obvious that there's some content that was left on the cutting room floor. Areas/enemies/etc.
I'm of the mind that most of the enemies dug up in datamines will probably be used for alt modes in the future.
If not though, and if paid DLC must be a thing, I'd rather just see some cut areas and enemies get brought back in. I couldn't care less about just buying random items. The whole point of the game is exploring and finding new items. Just buying some kills the entire concept of the game.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 15, 2019 11:48:03 GMT -6
Aspect ratio doesn't need to be factored in when comparing BSROTN with SOTN. I'm thrilled that I now have this to reference every time somebody wants to make that bad argument.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 13, 2019 23:48:39 GMT -6
Traditionally, if we do it would be threadbare at best.
We'll be lucky if we even get a pause screen
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 12, 2019 11:40:52 GMT -6
#1 Comparing the number of map segments is nonsence, They are inconsistent across all of Iga's games. Map segments are even inconsistent within a single game. But what I can guarantee is that you can take a room from RotN that took up 3x6 map segments; and if you put it into SotN it would show up as a 4x9 room. #2 "The placement on the map doesn't make a lick of sense". Where would you put this sub-space area exactly? You travel through a portal to get there so it's not like it's directly connected to the castle. Otherwise I agree, there have been multiple signs that the final two areas were thrown together at the last minute. There is a lack of concept art for these areas, and signs that the den of behemoths was originally planned to be something else entirely. [I'll edit this post when I find the thread that was discussing this]. But I happen to be a sucker for giant versions of pathetic enemies, and I had a good chuckle when I almost died to bats and frogs this late in the game. I JUST WISH THE GIANT MOCCO WEEDS WERE MORE LIKE ALURA UNE'S! #3 I also would enjoy this game with higher difficulty. BUT as diehard fans we are the minority, even among the kickstarter backers, and the game should be balanced for the majority of the playerbase. I constantly hear OoE being bashed for it's high difficulty. I myself found it's hard mode to be more tedious than fun, (largely due to gold medusa heads being added to so many early areas). But perhaps I'm just fine with this viewpoint since I'm used to doing self-imposed challenges, such as only using the crappiest spells and items that you would never normally use. I really enjoyed doing "boxer" playthroughs that require you to get dangerously close to each enemy. This game has me scratching my head on that front though since it doesn't have any offensively bad skills, and punching isn't even an option. (kicks have much more range than punches). For now I'm hopeful that there will be some more difficulty mods added in the future. Hopefully doing a co-op area solo will be a good challenge. Or maybe that Procedural generated castle mode will have some nasty difficulty options. #4 I agree, almost entirely. #5 - Heads up! My response to #5 is mostly by feel, which is not how I like to do things. I wish I could crunch some exact numbers and ratios but It is already way past my usual bedtime... "This is the most reskin heavy game that Iga's made by far." This is only true when viewed in a vacuum. If I were to count enemies reused from a previous game as reskins, (which I do), then RotN blows out every Castlevania by a country mile... (I say that hesitantly because I don't remember exactly how many of SotN's enemies were reused from RoB, Bloodlines and Castlevania 4). My first and biggest praise I gave RotN when recommending it to Castlevania vet's is that the reskinned enemies have significantly different movesets. I remember going through AoS in particular and saying, "ANOTHER GIANT ARMOUR? SERIOUSLY? CAN'T IT AT LEAST HAVE A NEW ATTACK?". But in RotN, the Archdeamons have new spells, the new archers have seeker arrows, the cannons start to move, the flying toads... glide. It's not that they have one or two extra attacks, bur ALL of their attacks are different and have to be dealt with in all new ways. (I'm aware there are some exceptions, like the ghosts and the lava morte's but I feel there are more good examples than bad). The final word is that unlike SotN this is the first iteration of a new franchise with all new assets. 3D models doesn't always mean cheaper assets. In fact I'd dare say it just means you can do reskins which are much better than recoulors. The switch to 3D is a big deal for a fighting game where each character has HUNDREDS of frames of animation. But where common Castlevania enemies have 1-20 frames each, it is probably easier to do 2D. That said I think the team took advantage of the 3D graphics well with the in-game cutscenes, the re-skinning that you disliked so, (again much preferred to recolours), camera zoom, and round areas that are actually round, (causing projectiles to fly into the foreground/background). I loved the Alfred fight and that just wouldn't work as well in 2D. #6 The weak sidquests are actually my biggest complaint about RotN. SideQuests can add a lot to a game based on exploration and collection. Sidequests are my favorite thing from OoE and it's sad to see this basic skeleton of a village dolling out quests in RotN. At least the villager lost in the castle was done well though. #7 The waterfall area with all of the shovel armours is 100% optional. I actually ended up severely overleveled after farming the shovel armours there, (and I got really lucky, so I wasn't there too very long). I actually didn't get to see the next 2 bosses full movesets because I killed them too fast So I don't really see the appeal of optional areas. That said, I did love the non-linear feel of SotN. But the problem is that I'm always going to end up ridiculously overleveled for many of my encounters in SotN, and I hate that. Every time I go back to SotN I always lose interest as soon as I'm strong enough to take on the final boss and the rest of the castle is left unexplored. Maybe I'm missing some upside to that? 1. I've offered my take on that specific point, and my argument is that screen size/player character size is ultimately superficial unless somebody wants to figure out enemy/item/anything density in RotN and compare it to other games to try and prove me wrong. Ultimately, a bigger screen does not make the game bigger. If an area has 100 rooms to explore in RotN, and an area in SotN has 100 rooms to explore as well, you're going to be exploring the same amount of game if you play them both regardless of RotN having rooms that are maybe a third more wide. 2. I mean, I agree with you that the area screams "oh shit we need more game" and was tossed together at the last second. What I would do is make it connected to the map in some way. Especially Glacial Tomb. There's no real reason why they should be disconnected from the rest of the map as they're outright stated to be a normal part of the castle instead of some weird moon dimension. 5. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point because there isn't much to argue. Although I stress that I'd rather see more interesting enemies reskinned instead of ... toads. Also if I was a backer that had their pet put in the game, I'd be pretty pissy to see that the model is reused for other pets. 7. The waterfall area? I mean I suppose that part of the Forbidden Underground Waterway is optional. Sure. But the area as a whole is not. There's no secret side areas or optional challenging zones. No real hidden bosses besides O.D. but he's also right there on the main pathway to progress. Exploration just isn't super meaningfully rewarded in this game. It doesn't hold very many surprises that wouldn't be found be somebody just mainlining the way to the last boss. There's also the three optional minibosses I guess, but they also just have one little room that's right on the main path each.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 11, 2019 12:39:14 GMT -6
I mean, Valefor seems wildly out of place with where he is in the game. I can see him as sort of a mid-boss in Hall of Termination though. There are actually quite a bit of enemies in CotM that aren't in RotN now that you mention it. The "reskin" of Dullahammer that's a miniboss in stage 9 sticks out to me as well. I guarantee you that the "regular" enemies at least will be used in additional modes down the road, because I don't see roguelite and chaos mode bringing in the crowds if there's nothing new to offer.
There was Creature Isolation Facility and Hall of Transference that were in the datamines. Hall of Transference had flags that connected it to the red moon room so whatever those two were, they eventually turned into Den of Behemoths and Glacial tomb. As I've mentioned elsewhere I'm not really a fan of either of those areas so I'm curious as to what they originally were supposed to look like
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 11, 2019 12:18:31 GMT -6
Yeah. I'd pay good money for some more areas. The game needs it. This might be the first metroidvania I've played that's devoid of optional or side areas.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 11, 2019 10:32:53 GMT -6
Im not sure if it is safe to talk about the Datamined info that was taken from the 2018 demo, but the enemy list has a few enemy names that were not present in game, and one of them is Focalor. The turtle like demon that appeared as a boss in Curse of the moon.
Regarding Focalor, in the "story flow" part of the datamines it looked like he was supposed to be an intended fight taking place at about the same time you'd be having to go down to the Forbidden Underground Waterway anyways, so I think he was originally supposed to drop the first water traversal shard and got cut. But regarding OP I fully agree. I look forward to eventually paying money for some DLC area in the future so I can get some kind of optional challenging area.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 11, 2019 0:45:10 GMT -6
gunlord500 In my defense, angel literally just said " If I had been around since the very start I would've recommended to not be cute and just call it the "Iga's biggest game" stretch goal, so there isn't any confusion." And indeed that's been the narrative for years now. Biggest game. Like, there's not a whole lot of gray area with that. And again, going off of how these games have literally always been measured, RotN simply is not the "biggest game" Also just going to reinforce once again that RotN is also "smaller" than PoR but everybody is ignoring that since it can't be written off as easily as SotN's second castle. purifyweirdshard It's *fine* if you're okay with the what the size of the game is. Seriously. But the whole schick of you acting as if there's no real reason for anybody to be disappointed regarding the size of the castle is getting really old. I appreciate angel giving me a real number here. RotN is 1.78 times the size of SotN's castle. Which is a nice way of saying it's not as big as the entirety of what SotN has to offer. Ergo, not the "biggest game." There's literally nothing to argue about here. I personally wouldn't go so far as to say that they broke a promise, but dealing with the paragraphs of mental gymnastics to defend it that have been thrown at me is a bit much. "It's more damaging to the game if I treat it as fact" ?? Come off it man. Besides the fact that it is, well, a fact: If you want to defend the game this hard you're better off trying to argue that the game offers more density than any other game in the series instead of ... whatever that last post was. I mean this as kindly as possible, but you aren't getting paid to PR this game. Relax a bit. There's reasonably defending the game and then there's weird super apologist territory.. If you insist on debating about the size of the game I'd rather see you talk about the worth and density of the game instead of arguing against unchanging, objective numbers. Like, I wouldn't be so weirdly annoying about this if I didn't have about twenty replies of people arguing against a measuring system that's been used for 20 years now and basic math. I'm not trying to claim that it's a small or barren game. I'm just pointing out that in terms of explore-able game world, it's not the biggest. I fundamentally don't understand why everybody wants to fight tooth and nail against that fact.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 10, 2019 23:38:52 GMT -6
Invert is kind of a non-factor since you can invert in ROTN as well. Except that the second castle in Symphony of the Night has unique enemies and powerups and bosses and items and music, making each room meaningfully a separate and unique location compared to its right-side-up counterpart in the first castle, in a way that simply inverting your current room in Bloodstained clearly and obviously doesn't achieve the same thing. Yeah that's what I'm trying to stress. Like when Angel-Corlux said "If I had been around since the very start I would've recommended to not be cute and just call it the "Iga's biggest game" stretch goal, so there isn't any confusion." That's what I'm not happy about. It's not the biggest game.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 10, 2019 20:49:02 GMT -6
The confessional booth in Sotn was very mysterious but it ended up having no hidden secret. You know that you get grape juice/wine if you sit down and listen to the "good" priest for awhile. At least there's a chance for it to happen. Not guaranteed.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 10, 2019 20:25:06 GMT -6
Honestly I'm getting tired of being "that guy," but that calculation is only true if you ignore the inverted castle. I'm just being honest. When "Iga's biggest castle" was achieved, advertised, and promoted, I just .... well expected his biggest castle. Not his biggest castle if you ignore the inverted castle in SotN, pretend PoR doesn't exist for some reason, account for screen size, and wait for the DLC. Invert is kind of a non-factor since you can invert in ROTN as well.
....
Then when you add on all the extra content coming, it's by far Iga's biggest game. (plus there's...one or two...things we haven't announced yet)I think we can both agree that there's a big difference between SotN's second castle and RotN's ability to just make everything topsy turvy. That last bit does intrigue me though. I distinctly recall the big hoopla in the discord like two months ago over you getting the approval to add "something" to the game. So I'm eagerly anticipating it.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 10, 2019 12:39:22 GMT -6
When we did the calculation it came out to something like 1.78 times bigger than SotN I believe.
Plus when you add in all the extra content that's coming, there's really no question that Bloodstained is going to be bigger than any previous Igavania, the others don't even come close. Honestly I'm getting tired of being "that guy," but that calculation is only true if you ignore the inverted castle. I'm just being honest. When "Iga's biggest castle" was achieved, advertised, and promoted, I just .... well expected his biggest castle. Not his biggest castle if you ignore the inverted castle in SotN, pretend PoR doesn't exist for some reason, account for screen size, and wait for the DLC.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 8, 2019 18:47:50 GMT -6
Bloodstained has less rooms that sone other of Iga's. That's it. A sandwich shop offers two kinds of sandwich for catering. In either case you get 20 sandwiches. For one kind, the sandwich is 8", for the other, the sandwich is 12". Both have the same density of toppings per inch. ...and you are asking why one is advertised as more food than the other, when both are "20 sandwiches". Enough with the metaphors. They suck. For your argument to work, you would need to provide some kind of evidence that these 30% longer "rooms" provide 30% more content compared to previous games. Of that I am unconvinced. The way to prove that would be to take the starting area of Bloodstained, and the starting area of another Iga game, probably DoS, and figure out density. This would be accomplished by counting the amount of rooms in each area. Then one would count the enemy spawn points, items, chests, and whatever other quantifiable "thing" in that area. Then the numbers can be turned into a ratio (something like "Bloodstained has 1.2 enemies per room square) and if Bloodstained's ratios are about 30% bigger than the other game's, then you'd be correct, and I'd be wrong. It's the easiest way to objectively answer this one way or the other.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 8, 2019 17:26:08 GMT -6
mourningxsun Dude, shut up about the room count. Right now, you're the guy being presented with a footlong sub and a hoagie and going, "But they're both just one sandwich." No need to be rude. Bloodstained has less rooms that sone other of Iga's. That's it. No need for all the goalpost moving and unrelated comparisons. Just take the L. This series is measured in room counts. Bloodstained is no exception. The end.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 8, 2019 12:16:13 GMT -6
purifyweirdshard anonthemouse I'm not sure how to break it to you guys, but room count has in fact been the standard of measurement for Iga's games the entire time. If you want to introduce relative character size into the discussion, you end up with strange arguments like Circle of the Moon being one of the larger games just due to the small protagonist, and Harmony of Dissonance being even smaller because Juste is a bit larger. And here's the thing, I'd bet you all the gold in China that if Bloodstained was in a 4:3 ratio, the castle layout and room count would be the exact same thing as what we have now. The screen being a bit bigger in a relative sense does not make the game bigger. It does not make the game longer, nor does it add more content. It is simply the size of the screens. It is a bizarre defense of a game that has failed to meet one of it's promises. Bloodstained does not have the most rooms, areas, enemies, bosses, or anything that could be reasonably used to explain how big the game is. The screen being wider does not magically make it the biggest game Iga has ever made in spite of everything else. If the game had half the amount of rooms, but double the amount of depth and stuff in it, then it would be a pitifully tiny game with a lot to mess around with. The goal was "Iga's biggest castle" not "Iga's most in depth game." You're a bit of a literalist when it comes to the stretch goals Purify, so tell me, where was aspect ratio officially introduced into the discussion regarding this stretch goal? I'll bring up the point of the save room again. Bloodstained has a bigger save room than SotN because of the aspect ratio. But what does that mean? Absolutely nothing. A 30% "larger" save room does not offer 30% more content. If Bloodstained matched SotN's aspect ratio, then we'd see the same map layout, the same enemy spread, and the same amount of content. Bloodstained doesn't have bigger screens to offer more content, it has bigger screens because it's not 1997 anymore and every game for the past decade has been 16:9. Nobody has ever made the claim that games nowadays are bigger and offer more content because of the aspect ratio. If the game had Miriam and the enemies half the size they are now while not touching anything else, would you be claiming that the game is now over twice the size of all of SotN? Also unfortunately for you I'm a sous chef in a restaurant that offers gourmet styled sandwiches, and I'd probably be shot if I sent out a sandwich that wasn't cut to the proper length regardless of how much "stuff" is in it. Bad analogy. I will reiterate. The standard measurement for the size of Castlevania games has been room count. Always. That doesn't change now to try and fit a narrative. The fact that this conversation can even be had, and aspect ratios needing to be brought in to defend the smaller size of the game, shows at the very least that they were cutting it very close with this stretch goal. And honestly, if the Den of Behemoths didn't exist and we had two or three actually interesting areas instead, I'd probably overlook the room count. But unfortunately the game has about 100-150 rooms of literal, actual, nothing, so I have a problem. Bloodstained shouldn't need the white knight brigade flying in. I should have finished the game and thought "Wow, that was definitely the biggest Castlevania I've played. I'm satisfied." Not ... "wait, that was the last area?" like I did. Even if I wanted to cede on this argument that's gone on way too long, my opinion would then rest at "well even if it's the biggest game he's made, it really doesn't feel like it."
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 8, 2019 1:27:21 GMT -6
This game is definitely harder than ... OOE I'd like to personally congratulate you on being the only person on earth with this opinion.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 7, 2019 23:35:23 GMT -6
I'm really not getting this aspect ratio argument at this point. It's just a straw-man. You're bringing up something that has never been a part of the discussion about this game series in twenty years of existence. Your argument is that the screen being 30% longer actually makes the game 30% bigger than what it appears to be. It's a fundamentally bizarre and nonsensical argument and no offense to you, but I'm tired of legitimizing it at this point. The game is 1650ish rooms. SotN and PoR both have more rooms. That's it.
Your choice to not take advantage of the options that the game reasonably presents you doesn't make the game harder. There's no ridiculous grinding needed in this game to get powerful, just some knowledge of it.
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