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Post by asterra on Jun 28, 2019 5:42:17 GMT -6
I've barely played more than a dozen minutes of "Hard" but I can already tell you that there are some differences beyond whatever is changed with the bosses. I have noticed
* Enemies have extra attacks. Bone Mortes throw three bones at once, for example, rather than just one. * Enemies are often faster. Sabnock does his roll attack much more quickly, for example. * There are more enemies placed around the map. The galleon now has a lot of bats, and even a Giant Rat where there definitely wasn't one in Normal.
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Post by asterra on Jun 28, 2019 5:25:15 GMT -6
I must say that I thought the English version was exceptionally well done. This is likely because you have academic expectations when it comes to translations, whereas thanks to the advent of anime (and manga), whose English-speaking consumers are more exacting when it comes to how accurate they want their translations to be, I have cultivated a demand for faithful translations which do not sacrifice characterization to make extra room for flowery prose. I believe it's a very good 意訳, a translation meant to convey intent rather than raw information. You're underscoring the very flaw I highlighted at length. So, let's begin. English script: Gebel! Tell me you didn't do this. It doesn't make any sense! So basically, Miriam's expressing her disbelief and disappointment at Gebel's conduct. The English translation very poignantly does this, and sounds a lot like something a native English speaker would say to express this. It adds a phrase at the end which has an easy and common Japanese equivalent. I'll add that exclaiming that something "doesn't make sense" isn't solely an expression of confusion but is also quite specific in meaning. That specific meaning is absent in the original dialogue. Why does it have to be here? It does not. The translator was on a mission to give the script added flavor. Sometimes that flavor is dubious but otherwise unimportant, but each time such an attempt is made, a risk is taken, and this game's English script quite simply overflows with legitimate violations. In this way, I'd be willing to say the official English translation is more accurate. Ignoring the point that I prefaced the OP with a note about providing a strictly rough translation, I feel as though you are latching onto this item as some sort of case-in-point for dismissing the entire conversation about inventing dialogue from thin air. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. It's also fitting to call the things that humans did to them sins I'm not going to belabor any talk about this or other lines of dialogue I included almost entirely because they bridged the more pertinent specimens. There is effectively no real violation in the translation of this line of dialogue, as indeed there isn't in at least half of the lines of dialogue in the game. I am more interested in the ones which do run afoul of that trend -- especially the major violators. Most of those are nowhere to be seen in this reply, and instead focus was held almost exclusively to lines of dialogue that I considered either to be trivial violations or not even suspect. Is it my fault for even bothering to include those in the OP? It could be. English script: Johannes told me what they did to you. Here they indeed omitted the fact that the incident took place 10 years ago in the English translation; but it's difficult to make the line as poignant with that little factoid in there, and it's information the player already has that is further implied by the context. Repeating it here serves no dramatic purpose. Here you reveal that you agree with the philosophy of the translator, but not, unfortunately, that your judgment is correct. You are saying that you don't like the fact that the original dialogue is including this information. That's not up to you. And it's not up to the people who did not write the original dialogue to proofread or smooth out (to their own personal tastes) the material they've been given charge to accurately translate. They were not hired to be the game's editor. And even if we allow you have a point to make about poignancy, what then is there to be said about the fact that Miriam's Japanese voice actress talks for twice as long as the now-truncated English script indicates? Players will pick up on this disconnect and be distracted by the confusion it engenders. I've already had several people agree with me on this in other discussions on this topic. It's the item that makes it easy for non-speakers of Japanese to recognize how inaccurate the English script is. It feels like you are forgetting the title of the thread -- the fact that the English dialogue deviates from the Japanese to the point of modifying character personalities is... upsetting... but also an entirely different conversation from the topic of providing proper subtitles for the players interested in enjoying the game in its original Japanese. the few true liberties taken with the script are in comedic exchanges that work very well. This is a convenient generalization, which I will accentuate by again noting that the only real deviation tackled in this response was dismissed with a personal opinion -- fully as ironclad as it is arbitrary. One wonders if the mental gymnastics that would be used in the hypothetical defense the rest of my OP would be of a similar nature. In my opinion, the observations made in this thread are not blow out of proportion, because they are completely misguided in the first place. And I feel that my rather more thorough breakdowns of this single conversation have proven more compelling than what you bring to the table. I am more than willing to move on to the next conversation in the game, which would inevitably strengthen my points, as you likely understand.
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Post by asterra on Jun 27, 2019 13:22:04 GMT -6
A more comprehensive solution here would be a second set of armor slots labeled "cosmetic", which would override the visuals of the default armor slots, but not the stats. And which could of course be specified as "default" (no change) or "nothing" (visually no armor).
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Post by asterra on Jun 27, 2019 9:45:14 GMT -6
Easy question. I thought at first that he had perhaps done the two retro sounding tracks (which would already be a disappointingly limited contribution), but it seems that even those weren't his.
So where are they? This was actually one of the more important reasons why I backed the game.
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Post by asterra on Jun 27, 2019 9:40:30 GMT -6
From what I hear, the issue is with the engine the game runs on not being great on Switch, but that's not really my problem. I won't accept that it would not have been possible for the Switch version to be on par with the other versions under the right circumstances. I'm going to be blunt. The team delivered your product. They never promised that the performance would meet everyone's ideal on every platform. They have zero obligation to you. The Switch is well-known for games that cap at 30fps and fail to even consistently deliver that, so Bloodstained is not some conspicuous specimen. And you understand perfecty well that your demands can never be met. By all means, keep pounding sand. All it will do is solidify the impression of somebody throwing an impotent tantrum.
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Post by asterra on Jun 27, 2019 8:10:00 GMT -6
> fix all of the issues
Sometimes I wonder if anyone even reads the threads before posting things like this. "Issues"? Inevitably, what people mean when they use this word is "poor performance on my underpowered platform", or "they didn't design two versions of the game -- one for the rest of the world, and one for Switch-caliber platforms".
Have a little intuition. Your issues won't be fixed.
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Post by asterra on Jun 26, 2019 18:04:56 GMT -6
This game, like most, got a localization, not a straight translation, and Im glad it did. Japanese to English straight translations sound so bad. Not entirely relevant to this thread. While I would absolutely still complain about the indefensible changes to dialogue that result in personality modifications (see: the OP), it would be easier to ignore if we were not then stuck with the transcript of that staggeringly inaccurate translation as the ostensible subtitles for the Japanese dialogue. That said, who asked for a straight translation? They have one job, and it doesn't have to be a tradeoff, as long as they don't suck at their job. If you know Japanese why even play it with English text? Don't be pedantic. For one thing, I already went well out of my way to underscore the fact that the English script is so far removed from the Japanese that even someone completely unversed in the Japanese language will soon spot this fact. For another, don't pretend you lack the intuition to guess that there are plenty of people who know a language imperfectly and/or have their reasons for desiring to experience something in its original iteration inasmuch as it is enabled for them.
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Post by asterra on Jun 26, 2019 15:37:41 GMT -6
It feels nice that they found a way to provide info that isn't overbearing or ..." HERE'S A CUTSCENE TO EXPLAIN A GAMEPLAY MECHANIC" ..... cuz those are the absolute worse. *Fist bump.*This man gets it. I was so impressed with the developers for this. It's not something that happens by accident, so it's a directorial mandate that they consciously adhered to. Good example of its manifestation:
Basically Johannes hints at the first-time-food system, and then, instead of him literally explaining the gameplay mechanism himself, a TIP pops up that does it externally. You know what sucks? When you're talking to an NPC in a game and they say something like, "You can press A to jump over that cliff. Give it a try!" That's when you realize that immersion must be for chumps or something, because who the heck needs that noise amirite?
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Post by asterra on Jun 26, 2019 15:27:45 GMT -6
I forgot one item.
* The ability to turn off controller vibration for only critical hits, leaving it on for everything else. It's a nice feature but stops being meaningful (and drains the hell out of the battery) when it happens multiple times per second because crit chance is through the roof.
Edit: Another:
* Higher-quality menu assets. Most of the menu assets are so heavily compressed that there are superpixellation artifacts all over the place. Sure, consoles need this for better loading times and lower ram usage, but not everyone is stuck with a console.
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Post by asterra on Jun 26, 2019 15:25:06 GMT -6
Never had that particular issue so I can't comment one way or another.
But I will point out that the first item in that guide is misleading. It is currently not possible to have a game with "no jaggies" because the post-processing itself is aliased and it mostly affects the very spots (edges of objects) that anti-aliasing is meant to smooth out. Secondly, this post-process is rendered at the screen's native resolution, regardless of what you put in for r.ScreenPercentage. And third, the "supersampling" that is enabled via this method uses a very poor downscale algorithm. So poor that it's scarcely better than the anti-aliasing the game provides via its own menus. And this is probably because r.ScreenPercentage was never intended to be used for supersampling in the first place. You get much, much better visuals if you achieve supersampling some proper way, although for the time being it seems the only way to do it is to enable it via the desktop. This does make menus blurry. It would be very nice indeed if the game itself would support proper supersampling natively. And also if the post-process outlining would use anti-aliasing so it would stop making the game look ugly.
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Post by asterra on Jun 26, 2019 7:00:53 GMT -6
So I watched the video.
I think you have enough intuition to fully understand that the Switch version is never going to be "up to par" by the standard of each of the individual complaints you listed. The framerate is 30, and a 99.9% solid 30 at that. The Wii-U Switch is underpowered by design and you're never going to wrangle twice the power out of it. The resolution is seemingly an upscaled ~720p. Also almost certainly not going to change. The post-processing is significantly reduced. This is the one area they might try to improve, but I am confident that whatever they try in their efforts to appease the Switch owners with buyers' remorse, it's going to have an impact on the stability of the framerate, which they have very clearly taken pains with. And the input lag -- and indeed a pretty big chunk of the overhead -- is dictated in large part by the fact that the game is being driven by Unreal Engine 4, but also to an equally large extent by the fact that the game is not running at 60fps, which happens to double input lag.
The team absolutely does not owe Switch users an extra copy of the game. That said, this thread isn't specifically a fair request, and it will probably still result in said freebie, so I understand why it was created.
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Post by asterra on Jun 26, 2019 6:34:34 GMT -6
Just pointing out for what it's worth that since the Switch version unavoidably (owing to it being a sort of Wii-U Plus) and uniquely runs at 30fps, you're never going to get PS4- or especially PC-like input lag. The latter case offers the option to further reduce lag at the alleged cost of possible framerate issues... which I never personally encountered, despite even supersampling my game (4K). And the former at the very least has the power to run at 60fps. This instantly means at least a ~17ms detriment, and if the input system is relying on some sort of frame buffering, potentially two or three times that.
In a twitch game where responsiveness is pretty much the point -- especially a game that is literally a callback to oldschool console platforming -- shooting for a platform that is inherently underpowered is asking for trouble. Probably the only way this could have been avoided on the Switch is if the team had literally developed a separate iteration of the game aimed at a lower spec, and obviously not using Unreal Engine 4. Thoroughly impractical, of course.
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Post by asterra on Jun 25, 2019 22:15:33 GMT -6
If we're doing this, then... Bugs: * There's a thread set aside for this, but one bug (the bag bug) has already been mentioned here. So, if discussing pervasive bugs that most players are likely to encounter, I'd add: Flame Cannon (and potentially other pink shard abilities) frequently gets stuck if cast in midair. In a long session of continual use of this ability, this problem is easily reproducible. The animation comes out, but not the ability. This forces me to spam the trigger button to (mostly) ensure that I get the spell out. Content: * I half expect that this is already planned for DLC, but... More endings. Especially at least one ending where most or all of the main cast is still alive in the end, including Alfred and even Dominique . I was surprised that this wasn't already in the game, but figure that, yeah, it's probably planned. * A master difficulty setting that is designed specifically to challenge fully-leveled players. Not to be hopelessly impossible, but to force players to become aware of elemental resistances, and to establish builds for specific bosses and areas of the game out of sheer necessity. And some sort of token acknowledgment when they manage to beat this mode, such as a differently-colored "clear" star indicating as much. Something more than simply head canon. Visuals: * Cosmetic armor slots that duplicate the regular armor slots. The regular slots are fitted with armor for their stats, but anything put into the optional cosmetic slots overrides the in-game visuals. * Support for true supersampling, as opposed to Unreal Engine 4's fake (.INI-based) supersampling (which sucks) or desktop-based supersampling (which causes the game's menus to be blurry). * The option to either DEFEAT the POST-PROCESS BLACK OUTLINES or to turn on ANTI-ALIASING for said effect. Currently, this post-process effect is added after Unreal Engine 4 renders the regular visuals, and this includes anti-aliasing, even supersampling. So no matter what setting one picks or forces with an .INI file, this black outline comes in on anything that moves -- Miriam, NPCs, bags, coins, etc. -- and destroys its edges with non-aliased black stairstepping. So not only does this tend to make anti-aliasing almost completely pointless, but it also introduces extra unwanted effects on subtler details. Take a look at what it does to this poor guy: So, yeah, either let us turn this off, or, probably more ideally, actually enable some kind of anti-aliasing for the effect. It is the #1 item keeping Bloodstained from looking as good as it could. Other: * Proper subtitles for the Japanese mode of the game, as opposed to the transcript of the English dub, which is patently useless due to its perpetual inaccuracies. * Someone to proofread the English text. It's mostly good (ignoring completely the fact that it is a travesty of localization), but there are a few gaffes here and there that stick out. * Perhaps the option to choose English/Japanese on a voice-by-voice basis. Solid examples of why: The English voice for Anne is... bad. I get that not all studios are able to hire someone who either sounds like or is a little girl, but when a 30-something is tasked with trying to do this, on top of a fake English accent, the result is unavoidably cringe-worthy. On the flipside, OD's voice can be none other than Belgrade; the Japanese counterpart is simply no substitute. And I also love Benjamin's voice.
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Post by asterra on Jun 25, 2019 20:22:53 GMT -6
Is there a link to the aforementioned poor performance?
I will say this much: This is an Unreal Engine 4 game, and the Switch is basically a glorified Wii-U. What do you expect, exactly? I've looked at videos of Bloodstained playing on Switch. It seems to run at a stable framerate, but that framerate is decidedly 30. Maybe that's good enough for Switch users -- certainly Nintendo seems to believe so since they haven't made a Mario Kart since Double Dash that can handle 4-player split-screen at 60fps -- but if that's what is meant by poor performance, there's unlikely to be any fix forthcoming.
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Post by asterra on Jun 25, 2019 18:22:10 GMT -6
Anyone willing to reveal whether completing the speed run mode unlocks anything or has a purpose for anyone not specifically interested in speedrunning?
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Post by asterra on Jun 25, 2019 17:25:45 GMT -6
Thanks for bringjng this up! though I'm not sure if the devs will be able to do a thing about it. Ridiculous. The game is now in bugfix and extra content mode and will be for probably years. Everyday fan subtitlers churn out essentially flawless translations of anime quickly, regularly and without pay. Given that context, the provision of an acceptable English translation for this very fan-oriented and literally fan-enabled product is not merely possible but imperative; if anything, its current absence is inexplicable. I would love to read some examples of the differences between our japanese and english characters in Bloodstained. Granted. (OP was edited.)
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Post by asterra on Jun 25, 2019 16:17:08 GMT -6
Most anime has pretty bad translations. Speaking as one who has an adequate grasp of the language, no, most anime nowadays does not, as long as we're talking about actual subtitles and not English dubs. It is actually rare for me to find anime with bad subtitles anymore, and I am far pickier than most. (Side note: All Studio Ghibli domestic releases have awful subtitles. But then again it's reasonable to note that they predate the phenomenon of the anime streaming industry which more or less ushered in the golden age of accurate subs.) I can understand changes that are done due to cultural changes. A standard concession -- points like that, or small changes to make the dialogue flow better in English, or similar considerations. But you have already indicated that you understand that in the case of this game, the English script goes way beyond what was strictly necessary. Entire sentences reordered, important things seemingly deemed unimportant and left completely out, etc.
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Post by asterra on Jun 25, 2019 15:53:30 GMT -6
I'll fire the first volley. The English translation of this game is abhorrent in its consistent and arbitrary inaccuracies, even going so far as to change the personalities of characters through dialogue modifications. I think I can confidently say that anyone who plays the game in Japanese will quickly catch on to this fact, regardless of whether they understand a single word of Japanese, because of how thoroughly off the English script is.
Fine, whatever. So the English script is bad. Even though basically the entire anime industry understands how to provide faithful translations, video game translations have a tradition to uphold. I get it.
The problem here is that when a person plays a game (or anime) in Japanese with English subtitles, and the English dub is so far removed that it's almost completely incompatible, then the subtitles for that dub aren't going to do that person much good. We call this phenomenon "dubtitles", and it's exactly as undesirable as the word connotes.
The implementation of support for the Japanese language in the English language version of this game is currently in "afterthought" territory due to this problem, and I consider that to be rather baffling. After all, the game was funded almost entirely by its Western fans -- fans who have a disproportionate penchant for Japanese culture and whatnot. Dubtitles are an infamous problem that purveyors of Japanese content now reliably take steps to avoid falling afoul of, so it's upsetting to see that in Bloodstained, we have no choice but to deal with the English language script, which, in this case, by contemporary standards, is disgustingly imprecise.
And if anyone so desires, I can provide a breakdown of an early conversation in Bloodstained to prove my point. But, again, I feel anyone who has played the game in Japanese is at this point already nodding their head.
Edit: So in the interest of making the situation perfectly clear to anyone who may feel this concern is blown out of proportion, I offer this analysis of select lines from the first significant conversation to take place in the game. The fact that I found this candidate within minutes of starting the game should say all that needs saying about how pervasive the problem is throughout the script. Ignore the barebones nature of my translations; I avoided adding flair deliberately.
Japanese: ジーベル! やっぱりあなたなの? どうしてこんなこと? Translation: Gebel! So it was you? Why did you do this? English script: Gebel! Tell me you didn't do this. It doesn't make any sense!
(Get used to this sort of "restructuring", because it is the literal majority of cases.)
Japanese: 「どうして」? 人間達が俺達にしたことを考えるなら分かるだろう? Translation: "Why"? Considering what humans did to us, you should understand. English script: How does it not? After all the sins humans wrought upon us?
Japanese: 十年前の出来事なら、ヨハネスから聞いた。 Translation: If you mean the incident from 10 years ago, Johannes told me about it. English script: Johannes told me what they did to you.
Okay, fine, sure, leave out half of the dialogue. It was unneeded fluff anyway. I'm sure nobody playing the game in Japanese with subtitles will catch on to the fact that Miriam sure seems to be saying a lot more than what the given translation suggests. (Also: Everyone in the English cast pronounces Johannes with a "J", making them more or less unique among people who use that name. The Japanese cast gets this right.)
Japanese: 「人間ではない」っか。あなたからその言葉を聞くとは思わなかったわ。 Translation: "Not human." I never thought I'd hear those words from you. English script: What...? I never thought I'd hear those words from you.
Here the most tangible issue, beyond the routinely arbitrary decision to replace one sentence of dialogue outright, is the fact that Miriam is maintaining her stern expression during this moment, so the interjection "What...?", which is a raised-eyebrows-surprised sort of expression, is absolutely not a match for the given facial expression. And this disconnect in turn subtly redefines Miriam's personality.
Japanese: 覚えてる? それは昔、私があなたに言った言葉よ。 Translation: Do you remember the words you spoke to me long ago? English script: I was the one that came to you broken, convinced I was a monster. And you told me--
Japanese: そんなことは-- Translation: That matters not-- English script: This is nonsense.
Japanese: どうでも良くない! Translation: It does matter! English script: You TOLD ME!
Japanese: 生きる希望を失っていた私は、あなたの言葉に勇気付けられたの! Translation: I had lost the will to live, and your words gave me courage! English script: Our power doesn't make us good or bad. Our choices do.
Japanese: 「力そのものは善悪はない。力の使い方に善悪があるんだ」って。思い出して、ジーベル! Translation: You said, "It's not power itself that's good or evil, it's how one uses that power." Please remember, Gebel! English script: I'd given up on my humanity, but you restored my hope. Don't you remember!?
Let's break this down.
Japanese: Do you remember the words you spoke to me long ago? | That matters not-- | It does matter! I had lost the will to live, and your words gave me courage. You said, "It's not power itself that's good or evil, it's how one uses that power." Please remember, Gebel!
English script: I was the one that came to you broken, convinced I was a monster. And you told me-- | This is nonsense. | You TOLD ME! Our power doesn't make us good or bad. Our choices do. I'd given up on my humanity, but you restored my hope. Don't you remember!?
Here are the problems with this reordering and restructuring, beyond the basic lack of necessity of moving lines of dialogue around like this:
1: Gebel is now the one who interrupts Miriam, instead of the other way around. And Miriam's response to this interruption makes it look like she got snippy at being interrupted. Right off the bat, we've reordered personalities, changing which character is likely to interrupt someone talking in order to make a point.
2: There is nothing in the original dialogue at this moment that provides that Miriam had "given up on her humanity" or that she was "convinced she was a monster". She had "given up on living" -- nothing more elaborate than that. The extra details given in the English script were, at most, intended to be derived conclusions left up to the player to interpret, but here they are spelled out for us, which in turn signals a change in Miriam's personality where she is willing to belabor the specifics of her painful past.
3: The change made to the quoted words spoken by Gebel is an unneeded truncation which drastically steals from the importance of the given sentence.
4: The last line of dialogue has been changed from specifically Gebel's quoted words to the explanation of what those words meant to Miriam. This is an important distinction because the last sentence in this line is a plea for Gebel to remember. So in the Japanese, she's specifically asking Gebel to remember the words he spoke, and in the English, this specificity is thrown out the window and the plea to remember is either generalized or is asking Gebel to remember how his words gave her hope. Further, in the original Japanese, this section of the dialogue specifically begins with Miriam asking if Gebel remembers the words he spoke, but that introductory component is totally gone in the English script.
5: The final plea to remember has been changed to an accusation. Just another personality tweak to add to the pile.
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Post by asterra on Jun 24, 2019 22:54:13 GMT -6
If Shovel Knight is anything to go by, the Bloodstained team are going to be stuck working on these promised items for literally years. And it's clear they're being pushed to the limit already. They managed to release a solid game (unlike a friend of mine, I never had a single crash during my now 60 hours of play), but there are also blatant bugs which every single person will quickly and repeatedly have to deal with -- bugs which should have been stupidly easy to fix, such as dropped bags getting locked during their freefall. I like the temporary fix they have for that -- after 15 seconds (when the bag would normally rot) it simply "lands" wherever it happens to be, for one frame, so the player can finally collect it if they're close.
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Post by asterra on Jun 24, 2019 14:06:40 GMT -6
The place to have put in your name for the credits is under Change Your Survey Answers. It should be just above your Curse of the Moon copy(ies) choice, next to last. As I said, there are two questions total on that page -- the same two questions that were there the first time I looked at it, years ago: "Which physical Backer Edition copy of Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night would you like?" and "Which digital copy of Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon would you like? (optional)" LITERALLY NOTHING ELSE.
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