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Post by DSLevantine on Apr 3, 2018 10:15:14 GMT -6
One last idea for awhile A digital book on the mythology of the game, like the backstory of Vepar and other bosses and what exactly she is and a history of the different organizations, and other info that may not be well known like where the different locations are and how they came to be the way they are. This, so much this.
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Post by purifyweirdsoul on Apr 3, 2018 10:24:19 GMT -6
Broken promises imply that the offenders either didn’t think before making the promises, or don’t care that they’ve let you down. They’re also implying that their needs are more important than yours. So to me, exclusive doesn't need be exclusive, but be honest about it from the get go. If you didn't think about it and want to change your answer later, then at least realize that people will hold you to a lesser standing than they might have originally. You could also bite the bullet and keep things exclusive and take this lesson to heart for next time, you messed up now but your next project could have content for everyone instead of exclusives. In the end I agree that it is a societal issue that needs to be dealt with promptly.  A significant part of this whole thing to consider guys is that this promise/idea was made with people that are no longer involved, and the people who are now responsible for "keeping the promise" are different individuals. ArtPlay (perhaps just IGA, obviously not Mana and I'm not sure about Curry) was there, but the publisher (505 Games) and new development groups were not. The IGA boss itself was an idea pushed for that he himself didn't initially agree with, so it certainly wasn't Igarashi's idea. Not sure on the swordwhip, but Sword vs Whip was a Fangamer creation and what the item kind of spawned from. So I would not say that this would be a case of them going back on their word, changing their minds, or symbolic of a dishonest society and all that. Many of the people who sat around a table and talked out these decisions aren't even on the team making the game anymore. Iga obviously conceded/agreed with the ideas of things, certainly, but we know how nice of a guy he is and wanting to do everything right for his fans. Being stuck into a corner of a hard decision like this wasn't chosen by the people who inherited it, or his intention in making his project the best it could be, trusting the counsel of those around him. I'm not "blaming" this whole thing on Inti Creates, mind you, or excusing the others of responsibility. That responsibility is certainly there, and everyone involved is taking it seriously, but regardless of the actions taken, I would not be looking at all this as someone changing their mind or lying.
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Post by ReySol on Apr 3, 2018 11:59:14 GMT -6
I am not sure if it is possible technically, but having the extra IGA boss and a weapon is a nice bonus for the backers, which was promised that way. I think that the “standard” edition without these small bonuses, but significant for fans, does not take away from the experience. It is definitely not an essential part of the game, so I wouldn’t think you get any less of an experience. If it cannot be exclusive, my idea is to make a physical exlusive bonus instead: swordwhip keychain and IGA boss figure. I would actually be more interested in the poster by Ayami Kojima, though.
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Post by Busterific on Apr 3, 2018 12:01:45 GMT -6
The point is digital objects should not be treated like physical objects. And that kickstarter isn't a binding contract. As long as the creators deliver the product, in what ever state that may be, they aren't liable from anything else. If the creator as roguedragon05 said can improve the community experience in any way they can, then a promise that can only damage the experience should not be kept. While this is technically true regarding Kickstarter, going off and doing something other than promised just because you can just seems like giving a big middle finger to those who backed and had a specific set of expectations.
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Post by Enkeria Gin on Apr 3, 2018 14:54:07 GMT -6
The point is digital objects should not be treated like physical objects. And that kickstarter isn't a binding contract. The word exclusive are to me, as an digital artist exclusive even its digital or not. This is the area where most people have divided opinions. If I as a photographer sells a picture, or an artist. Example: Mona Lisa. Sure we can make her digital - and give everyone her! That has actually happened. But the original, stays. Digital or not. Exclusive is still exclusive, to me at least. I wouldn't like to hire 80.000 people, for $1 dollar in total to make original Mona Lisas for everyone. It would make her... Not exclusive at all. And the physical items can be sold on eBay, so its not like they will be exclusive forever. Ingame however can be locked. register a code within x days? That is, to me at least, a bit more exclusive. Really a matter on perspective and I understand everyone. I am more hyped and interesting about things I use, than those that will collect dust. So even if I will look at the physical map a few times, it is the swordwhip and hidden boss that I will have more enjoyment out of. I dunno.. Exclusive is keyword. Make it not-exclusive will make it .. Not exclusive.
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Post by jboogieg on Apr 4, 2018 1:07:22 GMT -6
I think a thing to remember is that a decision hasn't been made. And so far they've been pretty up front with us about discussions being had and some reasons why.
It's easy to sit back and think of this from a personal point of view. I, myself, try to look at things from all angles.
I believe when they started this they were forthright and honest. If there's even a discussion being had I have to think there might be a reason behind it.
Also, Enkeria, you have to remember that when something is digital it'll never stay 'locked'. There are *always* ways for people to potentially get things even if they didn't back the game. I'm not saying you're wrong for feeling the way you do. I totally get you.
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Post by Enkeria Gin on Apr 4, 2018 8:50:46 GMT -6
jboogieg I am pretty sure Overwatch skin for Widowmaker is locked, a pre-order bonus. Or rather, it was locked after a few weeks after launch. Please correct me if I am wrong. And I think they will change the terms, the ingame weapon and IGA for everyone. It will feel like a kick in the face, but it will be the last time I have faith in such projects (kickstarter / pre-order). So lesson learned if so. I rarely get pre-orders anyways.
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Post by DSLevantine on Apr 4, 2018 19:36:48 GMT -6
I think the in game exclusive content is a very bad idea.
Some backers backed the game because of the exclusive content, they would not have backed the game if the exclusive content is not exclusive. They would rather buy it after the game is released.
For non backers, the non backer version is "inferior". Why would they want to pay the same amount as the backers for the inferior version? they can download the pirated version for free.
That's the reason why I think the exclusive content should be phycial but not in game content so that the pirated version doesn't have any advantage over the normal version.
I am willing to share the backer content with non backers. However, a promise is a promise, I hope the team can find a solution to the problem.
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Post by roguedragon05 on Apr 4, 2018 20:21:55 GMT -6
Many are willing and in the months after release I suspect that many more if not most will be as well, myself included. In fact I'll go so far as to say I'd prefer to share from right away. Both the physical and digital $60 levels will still get "something" exclusive as well as everything promised they just won't be the only ones to get it and while it's not fair that they lose their exclusivity I think it would be better for the game and experience. A kickstarter isn't a preorder it's an investment into a project so we all knew that the game would'nt come out exactly as planned, (WiiU to point out an obvious example) but I do acknowledge that this would be disappointing to some that gave more money for something exclusive. But as a backer it would'nt bother me personally. PS I just noticed in one of my previous posts that some to the Fool's Day Goofball switch a text is still there... not really complaining just wondered if anyone else had that issue too.
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Post by Enkeria Gin on Apr 5, 2018 11:55:22 GMT -6
Thing is, I am usually very kind and want everyone to have the best. But giving all you got to this project (all money you have / time / effort) seems like a big deal to me. And getting that extra back is appreciated. I do not even buy games every year, I do not back either. This was a project I wanted to back, and the exclusive things is amazing.
It's just a shame, once in a life you believe its real, but then it might not be so. Due to a simple little word called "exclusive". But yeah. Last time I write about this subject. I know whats best for the community, and that is no exclusive things at all. Mass-production cost money, but it would be the best alternative. Give everyone everything. < I am not sarcastic or ironic, that as a market is the way to go. Just such a shame. I wanted to feel a bit more special. Dammit.
Feel broken inside now. *waving white flag
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Post by jboogieg on Apr 5, 2018 12:11:29 GMT -6
I really *really* want you to understand that nobody is trying to shame you here. I understand why you feel this way. And there *is* a bunch of exclusive stuff that backers are getting outside of the proposed digital stuff. You still don't even know how this is going to pan out or what, if any, thing will be added to make up for it. This is why we're here having a discussion about it.
Also for the Overwatch skin it's why I mentioned before that 95% of the time stuff doesn't stay exclusive. But I'll further quantify the 'always a way' thing I found before mainly sticks with offline stuff. Sometimes online but generally if it doesn't have lootboxes you pay for for skins.
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Post by roguedragon05 on Apr 5, 2018 15:06:15 GMT -6
Thing is, I am usually very kind and want everyone to have the best. But giving all you got to this project (all money you have / time / effort) seems like a big deal to me. And getting that extra back is appreciated. I do not even buy games every year, I do not back either. This was a project I wanted to back, and the exclusive things is amazing. It's just a shame, once in a life you believe its real, but then it might not be so. Due to a simple little word called "exclusive". But yeah. Last time I write about this subject. I know whats best for the community, and that is no exclusive things at all. Mass-production cost money, but it would be the best alternative. Give everyone everything. < I am not sarcastic or ironic, that as a market is the way to go. Just such a shame. I wanted to feel a bit more special. Dammit. Feel broken inside now. *waving white flag Well I for one (and I think most others) was just talking about the Iga boss and Whipsword no longer being exclusive, and honestly if you still feel your right don't ever let anyone tell you your wrong. I don't think there would be enough of a demand for keychains/artbooks and such to mass produce it anyways, least not yet. Hands you Bloodless's umbrella to wave instead.
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Post by Enkeria Gin on Apr 6, 2018 12:45:26 GMT -6
I said before, the physical stuff outside isn't exclusive for me, only the digital since it have a purpose for me, (its being used in the game). A book can be rented, or bought from eBay, same goes with everything else people might wanna sell / flip or whatever it is called at a later date. Digital has a chance to stay exclusive however, just lock it for the backers.
Argument for most are that the physical is exclusive, while it is, it isn't. Anyone can get it after the release.
Another argue is exclusive is just a word without meaning, since people want the stuff (digital) to be allowed for everyone.
Extended arguement would be exclusive is just a word without meaning or purpose, and all the stuff (digital and physical) should be allowed for everyone.
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Post by gunlord500 on Apr 6, 2018 12:54:29 GMT -6
I said before, the physical stuff outside isn't exclusive for me, only the digital since it have a purpose for me, (its being used in the game). A book can be rented, or bought from eBay, same goes with everything else people might wanna sell / flip or whatever it is called at a later date. Digital has a chance to stay exclusive however, just lock it for the backers. Argument for most are that the physical is exclusive, while it is, it isn't. Anyone can get it after the release. Another argue is exclusive is just a word without meaning, since people want the stuff (digital) to be allowed for everyone. Extended arguement would be exclusive is just a word without meaning or purpose, and all the stuff (digital and physical) should be allowed for everyone. I mean, Enkeria, the same applies to digital content. Anyone can get it after the release when it's been hacked or pirated or datamined or whatever. The only difference is that such methods are both illegal and free of charge while someone can sell physical goods legally and at a price. Again, to reiterate what our friends above have said, this isn't to say that you're wrong for feeling as you do, I'm just pointing out how people will behave, you know how assiduous hackers and such can be 
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Post by Enkeria Gin on Apr 6, 2018 13:57:41 GMT -6
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Post by purifyweirdsoul on Apr 6, 2018 14:34:10 GMT -6
By "assiduous" he means persistent btw haha
But also insidious asses
But some hackers are good, don't hack me plsssss
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Post by jboogieg on Apr 6, 2018 18:01:41 GMT -6
Yeah, this is why I kept mentioning it: unless you plan on storing data server side and require an always on connection to see what digital content you're supposed to have as well as having DRM to prevent modding then you'll never be able to keep anything permanently locked to just backers.
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Post by bluegman on Apr 10, 2018 7:06:24 GMT -6
Perhaps instead of keeping it back exclusive, they shift down the rewards the $60 tier gets the $100 tier, the $100 tier gets the $150 tier, so on and so forth. I don't know how that would shift the budget of the game but I think if that were to be done many backers would be happy and then everyone gets the IGA boss and the sword whip.
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Post by roguedragon05 on Apr 10, 2018 7:16:38 GMT -6
Perhaps instead of keeping it back exclusive, they shift down the rewards the $60 tier gets the $100 tier, the $100 tier gets the $150 tier, so on and so forth. I don't know how that would shift the budget of the game but I think if that were to be done many backers would be happy and then everyone gets the IGA boss and the sword whip. That would be nice, but everyone would be upset that they paid X amount when now they did'nt need to pay, so for example those that paid $150 would realize that they could have just payed $100 to get what they wanted, also that would mean that suddenly some physical things would need thousands of extra copies, and who'd gonna pay for it?
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Post by bluegman on Apr 10, 2018 7:36:56 GMT -6
I hope everyone will get the same game, backer or non backer. For exclusive content, it doesn't have to be "in game" content, they can give the backers exclusive hi res wallpaper etc. The problem with that(at least on pc) is that I can just look it up, Nintendo has been giving out pc and phone wallpapers with their reward system but you can find them anywhere on the internet.
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Post by Enkeria Gin on Apr 10, 2018 11:57:46 GMT -6
bluegman What would the $500 tier people get? The ones not available? And yeah, wallpapers, PDF manuals, PDF comics, mp3 music etc. isn't exclusive at all.
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Post by bluegman on Apr 10, 2018 12:10:43 GMT -6
Enkeria Gin I suppose they would have to make something new perhaps a new t-shirt or maybe having an area in the game with their portrait in it.
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Post by Enkeria Gin on Apr 10, 2018 15:09:40 GMT -6
bluegman I would revert back to a $60 if that were the case.
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Post by DSLevantine on Apr 11, 2018 5:55:09 GMT -6
I hope everyone will get the same game, backer or non backer. For exclusive content, it doesn't have to be "in game" content, they can give the backers exclusive hi res wallpaper etc. The problem with that(at least on pc) is that I can just look it up, Nintendo has been giving out pc and phone wallpapers with their reward system but you can find them anywhere on the internet. The problem is no matter what they give, we can easily find it on the internet. For the exclusive item, physical item is better than digital because no one can reproduce it. I find that bloodstained theme can make good tarot cards.
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Post by Jowy Avilon on Apr 15, 2018 19:33:31 GMT -6
I just backed at the $125 tier, a massive slacker backer and came in to say this. In regards to the backer content, the only thing I wish is there was more transparency on if it'll be available to the general public. Cause if it is, then I will feel mislead. I backed at $125 specifically to get the physical rewards and the physical Switch edition AND to get the Steam version to have access to the stated backer rewards specifically for both versions instead of missing out on them for one copy or the other. Now, if the backer rewards become available period to all people, then i could have saved myself $25 bucks, backed at the $100 tier for the physical stuff and physical Switch copy, and just bought the Steam version at a later point in time.
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Post by purifyweirdsoul on Apr 15, 2018 20:33:26 GMT -6
Jowy Avilon well in your example, if it proves true that they release the backer content to everyone (we don't know yet), you would have still saved yourself quite a bit of money on that. It's very unlikely that the retail version of Bloodstained will be $25-28, and as you know you'd be getting a lot of physical things that retail won't. This is just regarding the weapon/boss. Sure, Steam Bloodstained + this content might be $25 somewhere way down the line on a Steam sale or something, but I'm thinking that it as a package (if they release it to everyone and charge for it) would be 50-60 or so. Again assuming this even becomes a thing.
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Post by Jowy Avilon on Apr 15, 2018 20:39:43 GMT -6
Jowy Avilon well in your example, if it proves true that they release the backer content to everyone (we don't know yet), you would have still saved yourself quite a bit of money on that. It's very unlikely that the retail version of Bloodstained will be $25-28, and as you know you'd be getting a lot of physical things that retail won't. This is just regarding the weapon/boss. Sure, Steam Bloodstained + this content might be $25 somewhere way down the line on a Steam sale or something, but I'm thinking that it as a package (if they release it to everyone and charge for it) would be 50-60 or so. Again assuming this even becomes a thing. Aye, I will concede to your point there. For what I discussing above was more thinking about the right here and right now more than the future for my example. I trust and really hope the developers will do the right thing and figure out a plan that will make as many as they can happy in regards to the backer content, so I don't really have much to say on that front. I'm not naive enough to think they'll make EVERYONE happy, cause no one ever can.
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Post by Cale on Apr 15, 2018 20:44:39 GMT -6
Angel-Corlux had an interesting Idea "Another avenue I'm investigating is potentially releasing the backer exclusive content to everyone (via deluxe edition or not) but backers get special skins/cosmetics for those items." Seems like a fair trade to me. But it also just occurred to me... "...special skins/cosmetics for those items." My understanding was there would be one item. "The mighty swordwhip A super-powerful hidden boss A Backer Edition slipcase (for physical tiers)" But of course this could mean a different look to the boss and Swordwhip. I like to read into things. 
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Post by purifyweirdsoul on Apr 15, 2018 21:04:27 GMT -6
I don't think he meant in-game "items" so much as items as in "things" in general. But yeah, I talked about that avenue some earlier myself here, I think it's a decent way to go about this. ...I believe another option Angel brought up for this in discord was this: The content is released to everyone, but only as a re-skinned more generic version so that the exclusive remains exclusive. So, purely content wise, everything ends up being there for all buyers, but the IGA boss is now actually instead a boss with a similar shape without the same design and voice lines, and the backer sword-whip becomes a more normal-looking standard weapon option. If backers so choose, they can access the generic forms of these things if they want. I'm paraphrasing and adding some thoughts to this, but I think you get the idea. edit: The best thing I can think of right now to equate this to from an old game - Instead of "Mike Tyson's Punch Out1!!" featuring Mike Tyson, late buyers get Mr. Dream haha. But if you want to fight Mr. Dream for some reason as a backer, you can
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Post by Jowy Avilon on Apr 20, 2018 0:54:54 GMT -6
I said this in the discord server but I'll say it again here for other wandering eyes. Disregarding my post earlier in this thread about this in regards to money issues over this. I feel the content, one way or another at some point SHOULD be obtainable by all, I don't agree with completely locking people of game content. However, we were promised exclusive backer content as a promise for backing, and I feel that should be honored. So the idea I discussed (like others have also mentioned in this thread that I agreed with) is having all content in the game, just giving backers a cooler skinned variant of said items or something to the effect.
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