Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jan 16, 2016 9:43:16 GMT -6
At the beginning of the kickstarter, someone asked IGA if he liked Battler bosses or Puzzle bosses (i don't remember if those where the exact terms) and IGA said that both need to exist in a game, but he prefers puzzles. Basically, it is like this:
Battler Boss
A Battler Boss is a Boss with a high HP, powerful attacks and variable patterns. You need to focus on attacking it, learning it's patterns and dodging when needed.
For example, GOLIATH (Order of Ecclesia Boss) is a gigantic humanoid monster with huge area attacks and a big health. You need to dodge it's blows and powers and attack, dodge and attack until he does.
Puzzle Boss
A Puzzle Boss is a Boss that has gimmicks and a puzzling way of fight, forcing you to think and plan on how to damage it or kill it.
For example, WALLMAN (Order of Ecclesia Boss) is a fat demon on a suit tha throws bombs on a bomberman-like area. If you get hit by the explosion radius, you die in one hit. He always heals himself and hides inside a wall using his magic. You just need to steal his magic WHEN he is going inside a wall, so he will lose his magic and die instantly, stuck inside the wall.
So, what kind of Boss you prefer? Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night sure needs both types, but what type you want to be more common? Have any good idea for Battlers and Puzzle Bosses?
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 16, 2016 10:27:37 GMT -6
I voted 50/50, but I think Puzzle Bosses are great. When I run a pen and paper game, I reward my players for defeating tough bosses by thinking outside the box. As for ideas, I still haven't finished my  but will be thinking about it while I work on the site today. |
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ChucklesTheJester
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Post by ChucklesTheJester on Jan 16, 2016 10:36:19 GMT -6
Neither is better, really. There are awesome puzzle battles and awesome "battle" battles.
Though what I'd really like to see is a more complex multi-part boss like Eligor from Order of Ecclesia, where you have to work through several different parts each with their unique behavior for a chance to strike at the bosses "core" to kill it.
And no, Legion and Belzebub don't really count their parts fall off but they don't really change in any meaningful way.
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thrashinuva
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Post by thrashinuva on Jan 16, 2016 14:20:25 GMT -6
Honestly I love both, but I also love powerful bosses that have a a weakness you can exploit.
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Post by allooutrick on Jan 16, 2016 14:42:48 GMT -6
Both styles have their pros and cons. With a battle boss it's always going to be about a level of skill which, to me, is what's good about it. Their downside though is they can become tedious to fight even before you beat them the first time, let alone other play throughs. Puzzle bosses provide a unique experience when you first encounter them but become incredibly easy when you have them figured out. Because of this I voted for a balance of both. It wouldn't be as fun to me if I knew that that every boss is just going to require me to smack it one hundred times or if every boss will need me to sit back and watch for what to do.
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Post by lod7 on Jan 16, 2016 14:47:53 GMT -6
Mixture of both.
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Post by thrashinuva on Jan 16, 2016 14:49:41 GMT -6
Another thing I like about bosses is when they're beatable even at level 1.
That is it might take forever, sure. You might be only doing 1 damage while they have thousands of HP, sure. But, if you really duked it out, maybe avoiding every single attack, you could do it, if you were insane enough.
Basically I don't like it when the game forces damage on me or me being at a point where I deal 0 damage, unless that's a specific boss mechanic.
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Post by linkfreak404 on Jan 16, 2016 14:51:48 GMT -6
I chose 50/50 for the sake of variety, but I prefer Battler Bosses mostly. I'm just not a fan of bosses that have a weakness that you need to find out over doing tons of trial and error. I find that stuff to be repetitive and frustrating.
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Zechs
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Post by Zechs on Jan 16, 2016 15:37:49 GMT -6
I'll vote both. But in detail it depends on my mood. Sometimes j just want some action. Others I am up for a puzzle. If only there was a way to toggle the A.I. to allow for such.
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Post by crocodile on Jan 16, 2016 17:14:46 GMT -6
Both styles have their pros and cons. With a battle boss it's always going to be about a level of skill which, to me, is what's good about it. Their downside though is they can become tedious to fight even before you beat them the first time, let alone other play throughs. Puzzle bosses provide a unique experience when you first encounter them but become incredibly easy when you have them figured out. Because of this I voted for a balance of both. It wouldn't be as fun to me if I knew that that every boss is just going to require me to smack it one hundred times or if every boss will need me to sit back and watch for what to do. "Battler" Bosses that are just pure slogs and "Puzzle" Bosses that are push-overs once you figure out the trick aren't super fun. But that's the difference between one of these archetypes executed well and one executed poorly. I think high tempo Battlers that keep you engaged and on your feet are the best rather than ones that let you kind of tune out of the fight. Puzzlers that still offer a test of dexterity once you understand the pattern/trick (which you don't always want to be super obvious but can't be annoyingly esoteric either) are the best. TLDR - Balance and execution are key. Another thing I like about bosses is when they're beatable even at level 1. That is it might take forever, sure. You might be only doing 1 damage while they have thousands of HP, sure. But, if you really duked it out, maybe avoiding every single attack, you could do it, if you were insane enough. Basically I don't like it when the game forces damage on me or me being at a point where I deal 0 damage, unless that's a specific boss mechanic. I'm pretty sure both Inticreates (and you can see this in the design of their boss encounters throughout their games) and IGA have at one point or another gone on record saying all bosses should be and have to be beatable without taking a hit. So I don't think this is an aspect of game design you have to be worried about  |
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Redogan
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Post by Redogan on Jan 16, 2016 17:28:44 GMT -6
Needs more battle-type bosses, but please don't forget the puzzle bosses. They are great fun, but should be more rare IMO. One thing I do want from boss battles is the ability to dodge their attacks via the backdash animation and/or forward roll animation. I hope the backdash is more of a backflip or back hand spring. I really enjoy learning and developing the skill to abuse the i-frames and dodge boss attacks, then follow-up with a counter-attack (like an upward sword swing out of a forward roll). Just be a little lenient on the i-frames. I don't want it to be invincibility during the whole animation, but I also don't want to have to be pixel-perfect to nail the dodge.
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Post by Astaroth on Jan 16, 2016 18:57:35 GMT -6
as long as the fights arent magic pixel, ai may i, or wombo combo im fine with either
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Post by GenericSoda on Jan 16, 2016 19:36:39 GMT -6
I think...
That in Castlevania's history, bosses that straight-up fight you come across as puzzles! Goliath, Blackmore, and Eligor from OoE (Yes I love this game and maybe I will marry it!!!!) both have specific patterns and attacks you need to work around, and figuring out which attack they'll use after the next are the puzzle. When I first fought Blackmore, I came to the conclusion I had to use some gimmick to beat him because he dealt such an absurd amount of damage, but nope, you just need to figure out his attacks and work around them.
I mean, think about IGA's favorite boss, Abaddon. You can work around his attacks, moving to avoid specific attacks by using various souls, or you can try to go on the offensive to attack through the locusts that Abaddon summons. The solution to the puzzle is the same: beat Abaddon, but the tools you use and which route you take are just how you're solving the puzzle. That being said, I think that Eligor is the closes OoE gets to a "puzzle" boss, because of how involved all of his attacks are depending on which portion of the battle you're at.
I guess basically what I'm saying is that every fight in Bloodstained should be like Azel in God Hand.
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Post by Goobsausage on Jan 16, 2016 20:32:00 GMT -6
I voted for 50/50, but instead of going "half of these bosses are HP sponges with high attack power and the other half are straight-up puzzles," I'd like to see all of the bosses end up being a mix/balance of both a battle and puzzle.
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Post by Ghot on Jan 17, 2016 0:15:12 GMT -6
I'm gonna vote 50/50, but i want to make it clear i don't like cylce based bosses that hide or have long invincibility phases. Those are just plain boring, i'd rather they be engaging in a meaningful way especially for replay value. Love puzzle bosses more though.
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Vampire
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Post by Vampire on Jan 17, 2016 1:22:47 GMT -6
For me I would I prefer about 1 in every 4 bosses to be a Puzzle Boss,Because as it is,it's Puzzle and if you cannot solve it you cannot proceed,and it can get very tiresome over time having to deal with those kinds of enemies constantly
I much prefer having bosses,then strong bosses with multiple weaknesses you can exploit and then once in awhile a puzzle boss usually being a side boss
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Clear
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[TI0] お疲れ様でした、ＩＧＡ！
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Post by Clear on Jan 17, 2016 2:53:41 GMT -6
I voted 50/50, but I'm for the most part leaving it all up to Iga however he wants to implement the bosses. I think Iga will do good in this aspect. I think it would be nice to be able to defeat puzzle bosses in either the intended way or the brute force way (which is effectively faster). Maybe on first playthrough, a puzzler boss must be defeated the legit way, whereas on NG+, that same boss can be defeated much quickly using a late-game power Miriam acquired from her first run and carried over to her NG+ save file. Or something like that |
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jan 17, 2016 7:03:55 GMT -6
What, no rhythm game bullet hell bosses?
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Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
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[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jan 17, 2016 7:22:19 GMT -6
Another thing I like about bosses is when they're beatable even at level 1. That is it might take forever, sure. You might be only doing 1 damage while they have thousands of HP, sure. But, if you really duked it out, maybe avoiding every single attack, you could do it, if you were insane enough. Basically I don't like it when the game forces damage on me or me being at a point where I deal 0 damage, unless that's a specific boss mechanic. Yeah, as said before, i remember one time when IGA said, before Bloodstained was revealed, after he quit Konami, that he balances Bosses on a single way: the main playtester of the team MUST defeat the Boss on a perfect fight, not being hit a single time. If the playtester can do this, it means, for him, that the Boss is balanced enough. |
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Post by giwagiwa on Jan 17, 2016 12:36:26 GMT -6
Battler BossA Battler Boss is a Boss with a high HP, powerful attacks and variable patterns. I would say you've missed something here. A boss doesn't have to have high HP to be battle based. It could be a very aggressive attacker making it hard to get hits in, or it makes attempts at dodging your attacks. |
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but will be thinking about it while I work on the site today.
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