Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Nov 30, 2015 6:50:55 GMT -6
There is something that i didn't saw much in discussion. Shop!
About Shop
Many Igavania games had shops, but there was also some that didn't have (not only the old ones). Putting a shop on a Igavania game is a clever and easy way to not make the game impossible. Basically, you have an unlimited source of healing items as long as you have gold for it. Now, my question is: how should Bloodstained Shop could be? It need one? Some questions for you to answer =)
Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night needs a shop?
Circle of the Moon was released after Symphony of the Night and didn't have a shop. You could find use items (like potions) by killing enemies repeatedly. Bloodstained needs a shop? Yes or no?
Contextual or not?
Symphony of the Night had a librarian, that was a servant of Dracula. He decided to aid Alucard and opened a shop for greed reasons, simply trying to get rich into the situation. He was a servant of Dracula and he was a librarian. That is a contextual Shop. It is odd, but it does make a little sense.
Aria of Sorrow had an army solder selling "stuff" he found inside the Castle for no reason, considering that the person he was selling to was his only way to get out of there alive. That is a functional Shop. It is there just because the game needs a shop. The shop needs to be contextual? Yes or no? And if need, what context?
Huge bag of items or more limited?
First Igavania games had a huge number of items that you could hold (99 of each), so you could have hundreds and hundreds of healing items, something that made the game even easier. New ones capped this into only 9 each and they even tried to cap this more (Curse of Darkness had lower caps for more powerful itens). What Bloodstained could have?
"The most expensive item"?
Some Igavania had a special, ultra expensive item that helped the gamer A LOT or even broke the game in a way. Symphony of the Night had the Duplicator (unlimited use items) for $500.000. Aria/Down of Sorrow had the Soul Eater Ring (increased a LOT the chance to drop souls) for $300.000. Portrait of Ruin had the Holy Claymore (strongest weapon of the game) for $300.000.
We need a "most expensive item?" What that item should be or do?
A shop that levels up over time, by making quests, both?
Some games had shops that added better itens as more you progressed into the game. Others leveled up by doing quests (you do a quest that unlocks new items to buy). What is better?
Waiting your kind answers and commentaries. Let's talk shopping bloodstained style!
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Post by giwagiwa on Nov 30, 2015 10:12:18 GMT -6
I think having a shop is a given; however they decide to fit it into the plot of the game I'm not all too concerned about.
New items appearing in the shop as you progress in the game is one of the best aspects.
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Astaroth
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Post by Astaroth on Nov 30, 2015 13:22:39 GMT -6
I think the wallet buster should be either a piece of op gear or something that lessens grinding, duplicator was great in sotn but i primarily used it for meal card spam to get 100% items, if theres a 9 item cap and no use weapons the duplicator becomes mostly pointless, especially with ng+
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Canopus
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Post by Canopus on Dec 1, 2015 0:54:25 GMT -6
Without a doubt. We need a shop to balance out the gameplay. We would also benefit from being able to list rare exclusive items up for trade or sale to other players (or a randomizer) via a randomized "alchemy convert" system.
If online with other players: "Place item into slot, connect to server. Transmit data and item, obtain random item."
If offline: Place item into slot, Offer random amounts of currency/souls to convert, obtain new item. (include exclusive items to get this way)
New items should also be unlocked based on in game actions and new game+.
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Post by crocodile on Dec 2, 2015 16:20:40 GMT -6
My experience with most shops in IGA games is that they've been pretty worthless. You naturally find better weapons/armor/etc. than what you can buy through just playing the game (drops or treasure) and after a while, you're powerful enough to rarely need healing items. If the shop is to be useful in this game, it will likely need an overhaul but I'm not sure how. Of the options presented, I'd prefer something that makes sense in context, a limited bag doesn't raise challenge in a meaningful way and just encourages more back tracking, I would hope the shop changes and evolves with you though I think quests are most likely the most fun and proactive way to go about it and I'm not opposed to some very expensive items that change/manipulate the game in a meaningful way.
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Apollonian
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Post by Apollonian on Dec 2, 2015 16:25:13 GMT -6
My experience with most shops in IGA games is that they've been pretty worthless. You naturally find better weapons/armor/etc. than what you can buy through just playing the game (drops or treasure) and after a while, you're powerful enough to rarely need healing items. If the shop is to be useful in this game, it will likely need an overhaul but I'm not sure how. Of the options presented, I'd prefer something that makes sense in context, a limited bag doesn't raise challenge in a meaningful way and just encourages more back tracking, I would hope the shop changes and evolves with you though I think quests are most likely the most fun and proactive way to go about it and I'm not opposed to some very expensive items that change/manipulate the game in a meaningful way. Personally I found the shop feature super helpful for maxing out items (though I doubt there are a ton of people that do that kinda thing). |
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Post by zanzuki93 on Dec 3, 2015 2:46:32 GMT -6
My hope is that it isn't just one shop because it sucks having to backtrack just to get back to a shop. Well until you get a teleporter room  However I think adding a shop would be really nice instead of having to be reliant on good enemy drops. In my opinon |
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Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Dec 3, 2015 4:09:10 GMT -6
A simple context for a shop could be that Johannes, for example, as an alchemist, can forge exclusive items for Miriam that she can't do it herself, but for that he needs gold, using gold as the catalyst material. (It could be another resource, but gold is easier and more friendly).
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Post by Ghalion on Dec 3, 2015 10:48:58 GMT -6
I love shops in theory. But they are virtually never ever implimented correct IMO. Generally game shops lack useful stuff other than consumeables, and what little good stuff they have you can buy everything for nearly immediately.
I want games with shops (including this one) to be more like final fantasy 1. Yes 1. In that game when you got to a new town. You had to select what to buy because you couldnt afford all the best gear on every character right away. It made you value the one or two things that you got, and actualy feel like chests with 500g was a score instead of some useless number on a screen.
Note that if you played ff1 via the gba remake, that game got nerfed in experience and gold hard and is once again a bad example.
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Post by zanzuki93 on Dec 6, 2015 0:49:35 GMT -6
well you also have to remember that if you can craft the best weapon you are probably going to craft it. Yes it is a pain to get the ingredients ,however it is a guaranteed one of those said weapons. If you allow the ability to forge weapons it defeats the purpose of having a weapons shop at least in the endgame IMO. The same with crafting armor, but on the other side of the coin you could just as easily just get a weapon or whatever from a enemy drop.  Also there were items exclusive to the library in SOTN like the famed duplicator. |
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Post by Rigel on Dec 6, 2015 20:15:22 GMT -6
Im glad you bring out the subject. It always annoyed me a little the fact that hammer's shop had no sence in the sorrow games. I know its no big deal but I definitely prefer that the shops have a reason to be there, or at least some logic. Maybe it could be a shop of the alchemist order.
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kx57
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Post by kx57 on Dec 7, 2015 9:34:05 GMT -6
I would assume a shop is a given.
I definitely think it should be in the game.
The shop should achieve several things in my opinion:
- A place to sell loot
- A place to buy healing potions/consumables
- A place to obtain certain rare items
- update as you play so you have an incentive to come back
- sell maps, perhaps even split the maps up similar to how Far Cry does it with "loot map", "location map", "quest item" map and so on
- perhaps sell some character costumes for exorbitant amounts of money (gold sink)
- buy boss fight hints
I actually would prefer a couple different shops...maybe. I like the idea of a roaming trader similar to Resident Evil 4 / Fallout that would sell rare goods and also a static trader similar to the library in SoTN.
I don't like the idea of the shop requiring and online connection. But I'm cool with it being optional.
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Apollonian
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Post by Apollonian on Dec 7, 2015 10:04:47 GMT -6
I wonder if the shop could be an asynchronous multiplayer aspect that they promised.
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Astaroth
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Post by Astaroth on Dec 8, 2015 12:29:43 GMT -6
I think where the shops function best is when youre new to the game and dont know where to go yet to keep your equipment on par with the area or fight each enemy without taking damage (or are having horrible luck with drops), once you get the hang of it most people use the shops for completion or potions and the one 6 figure item, i think the shop should continue be there primarily as a helping hand for new players with a smattering of cool and exclusive items that show up over the course of the game for the completionists
Then i think there should be the synth shop, where things get exponentially more awesome and expensive and you explore your ass off for the mats to that super awesome swiss army polearm
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Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Dec 8, 2015 15:35:02 GMT -6
Considering everything discussed so far, i think we kinda have a good idea for a Shop then. Here's what i think, some suggestions based on my mind and on what i read here.
The Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night shop could have:
What you can buy
Healing itens, basic forging itens (common ones), exclusive equipment you can't find anywhere, for completionists. Some ultra pricey itens (costumes and special equipment).
What you can sell
Everything you have, save for key/important itens, of course.
Other services
Build your own online shop, where you can sell your itens for other people online, for your own price.
Take and complete quests, that can increase what the shop can sell and give exclusive itens you can't find anywhere. The shop also updates alone by completing the game.
Context
A survivor of the Alchemist Guild, that traveled to the castle in order to investigate what happened to the guild, found the old Guild storage room and looted everything there. When he sees what happened and meet Miriam and Johannes, he decides to sell the alchemist's itens right there at the old alchemist guild area, inside the storage, before leaving.
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Also there were items exclusive to the library in SOTN like the famed duplicator. 
yey