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Post by alialkhiro on Jul 21, 2015 13:10:19 GMT -6
I'm going to be 100% honest and say I have no idea how the hell to get the quote function here to work the way I want it to, so I'm just going to do this raw. just imagine each new paragraph as quoting your responses to me in order. Going to the BBCode tab in the reply page makes things easier. Just copy/paste the quotation headers around the paragraphs you want to respond to. I was a bit offended when you claimed I was desperate to defend my point. Game design is, like, the one thing I'm good for; and I kind of take it personally when people talk like that. Say my idea's bad, short-sighted, whatever, and I won't mind. This is how I look at things in a new way and grow in my view on certain topics. But if you say I'm desperate, it suggests that I'm denying that I'm wrong so hard that I don't believe what I'm saying any more. But don't worry about it, it's cool and I may have personally read too far into it anyway. Well, I didn't feel offended after you stated that my suggestion was not thought through (even though I am also an aspiring game designer), I just took it as that is how you saw things. I didn't say you were desperate, I said: " I thought you were" which is a statement of thought rather than a declaration of fact. Also, despair in defending ideas is associated with righteousness while stubbornness is associated with being wrong. They become interchangeable when it is not possible to know if the person is right or wrong. I shall avoid using either in the future. There's really no way to say it that isn't conceded as hell, but simply put, Igavanias and fighting games were pretty much my life. I played all of the DS titles to their absolute limit, Even that stupid old axe armor mode in portrait of ruin where you had to kill 1000 old axe armors (of which there are only a handul in the game) just to unlock it. Igavanias have been one of my greatest inspirations as a game designer and as such, pride myself on being very familiar with the ins and outs. I'd say that makes you biased more than conceded. Having played too much of the old thing and loved it to the point of near obsession (that axe armor mode is too much) may prevent you from seeing new and different possibilities. I am not saying that is the case here, I am just informing you of the likely possibility of interpreting your statement from my point of view. I disagree. Meatboy and Castlevania are both about traversal and overcoming obstacles. Meat boy stresses speed and terrain, whereas castlevania stresses precision and timing (which factors in combat). If you describe Castlevvania as an obstacle course then you put it at the same level as Meatboy. The pacing, difficulty and the availability of multiple solutions may all be difference points between the two games, but they would boil down to the same principles. Unless you describe Castelevania as an exploration game (not sure how many titles of the franchise fit that description, but I am sure SotN does) then it is a completely different equation. And I think this is where the disparity in our perspectives lie. Allow me to ask you a question: Which is more an Igavania than the other; Rogue Legacy or koumajou densetsu? My suggestion works well for the first but not with the second. The problem that would arise would be that in theory, players could just run through every room, get all the AI opponents to chase them until they form a cluster, and then just unload a powerful attack and kill a great deal of them, which would beg the question, why bother designing rooms and placement for synergy between monsters if they're just going to be lumped into a massive ball anyway? Not all enemies behave the same and not all will follow. And I am all in for that synergy you talk about; that is what I was talking about when I talked about enemy formations. But I didn't see much of that in SotN; enemies were placed individually and even when two of them were together, they rarely played to each others' strength. Now let me tel you about how I played SotN and what I hated the most about it. The castle was obviously complex with many paths and most of them were out of reach, but I knew I will have to get back to those and explore them when I get the ability to do so. So most of my play time was divided into exploration trips centered around save points. This meant that I would frequent the same save points few times before reaching the next one; the rooms near the save points are frequented as well. But each room was the same as the first time I entered it; the enemies are the same and they spawn in the same positions and require the same moves I did the first time to progress through (if not less moves since I am stronger now). After a certain point, the game was a mindless walk through many already explored rooms just to get to the small area I couldn't explore before. And while I didn't need to do the same with the reverse castle since I had all the exploration abilities, I was strong enough to beat most if not all enemies with little to no effort because I am used to the game and know what to expect from it. Now imagine if while backtracking through a previously explored area with enemies that I can kill without even thinking about it and I am faced with the suggested hunter group, and they are strong! That is a kick to the brain to get back in action. Better yet if you can't shake them off since they follow you from room to the next and you can't explore with such enemies on your back since they can make the possibly harder rooms ahead even harder, you can try to lose them by going through areas they can't cross (like the points connecting different sections of the castle or spiked hallways requiring special abilities to pass through) or you can lead them to a room that you can use to your advantage. It can be balanced right and it would give people who spend too much time in the same area or people who abuse the save point a challenge that speed runners and fast platforming favoring players wouldn't need to bother with. Another beef I had with the game is that the weapons didn't matter much and the items and spells rarely felt useful. At the same time, certain items felt so overpowered that I didn't use them because the game just broke. You have to add some dynamic response to the player's power and weapons in order to keep the challenge up; that is why static design isn't that great. If you can't design rooms while keeping all the available weapons in mind unless most of those weapons play the same (which makes it pointless to have them in the first place) and designing the room for one type of weapons while ignoring the others will make certain weapons overpowered and others totally useless (which makes it pointless to have them again). There are as many arguments against static design as there can be against procedural generated designs. Both can be used to make amazing things when done right but a balance between the two (while difficult) can create even better experience. Yes, but not in the way you suggested. Your suggestion was to give the player the option between a gimmicky and more difficult fight or have them take the fight to a second room for a more simple one. Here, the progression is decided by the crab. Shanoa couldn't just climb to the top of her own choice, she had to play the crab's game to work up to it. This is why I offered this as an intermediate option between what you suggested and most bosses, as it's very mobile and transition-heavy, but still noticeably fluid with the rest of the game Again you use the word "gimmicky" as if it is a bad thing and again you hang on to the example I gave to clarify the idea and forget the idea itself. If the player didn't know such a thing was possible (because it usually isn't) they only stand to discover it by chance which would result in a happy surprise (and sacrificing a boss fight for that is definitely worth it; such was the case of the fight with Galamoth in SotN). If the player knew about it, that knowledge can be used against the player to surprise him again (the enemy gets stronger in the other room instead of weaker). A harder fight with a better reward will still attract players who appreciate a challenge while players who don't care for the fighting as much as the exploring will appreciate the easier one. You only stand to gain possibilities with the only possible downfall is the failure of the game devs to apply the idea in a fun manner (and I believe in Igarashi). Also, that player defeated the crab with the same tactic from start to finish! The transition changed nothing! And playing the crab game meant that there is only one way to defeat that boss, no control for the player over how they face this boss. This is not a bad thing, but we have done that so many times already! I would like something else for a change. The core idea of games is to give control to the player; this is what I am calling for. That being said, one argument against random enemies is I imagine it might offput speedrun competitions. Given speedrun is its own separate game mode in BS however, perhaps that can have its own rules regarding randomized enemy elements. Well, if you add a bit of randomness, it will contrast the static design you are using in most of the game and may stand out like a sore thumb. If you put more to create an even mix, you risk letting the possibilities run out of control and end up with the players being able to break the game. Games that use procedural generated levels get a free pass by keeping low graphical profile and a none serious theme so that no one would care that all the rooms are actually copies of each other with different enemies and decorations sprinkled in (Rogue Legacy and The Binding of Isac). A more serious game like Castlevania would never get away with such a thing and the rooms must be hand crafted into the beautiful art works they are and made challenging with carefully placed enemies; that can not be the result of randomness. A good balance of randomness and order can come from the fact that you only need the order at the first few times the player clears the room, any change in the room after that would be welcomed.
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Post by helluminatus on Jul 21, 2015 14:39:07 GMT -6
I disagree. Meatboy and Castlevania are both about traversal and overcoming obstacles. Meat boy stresses speed and terrain, whereas castlevania stresses precision and timing (which factors in combat). If you describe Castlevvania as an obstacle course then you put it at the same level as Meatboy. The pacing, difficulty and the availability of multiple solutions may all be difference points between the two games, but they would boil down to the same principles. Unless you describe Castelevania as an exploration game (not sure how many titles of the franchise fit that description, but I am sure SotN does) then it is a completely different equation. And I think this is where the disparity in our perspectives lie. Allow me to ask you a question: Which is more an Igavania than the other; Rogue Legacy or koumajou densetsu? My suggestion works well for the first but not with the second. The problem that would arise would be that in theory, players could just run through every room, get all the AI opponents to chase them until they form a cluster, and then just unload a powerful attack and kill a great deal of them, which would beg the question, why bother designing rooms and placement for synergy between monsters if they're just going to be lumped into a massive ball anyway? Not all enemies behave the same and not all will follow. And I am all in for that synergy you talk about; that is what I was talking about when I talked about enemy formations. But I didn't see much of that in SotN; enemies were placed individually and even when two of them were together, they rarely played to each others' strength. Now let me tel you about how I played SotN and what I hated the most about it. The castle was obviously complex with many paths and most of them were out of reach, but I knew I will have to get back to those and explore them when I get the ability to do so. So most of my play time was divided into exploration trips centered around save points. This meant that I would frequent the same save points few times before reaching the next one; the rooms near the save points are frequented as well. But each room was the same as the first time I entered it; the enemies are the same and they spawn in the same positions and require the same moves I did the first time to progress through (if not less moves since I am stronger now). After a certain point, the game was a mindless walk through many already explored rooms just to get to the small area I couldn't explore before. And while I didn't need to do the same with the reverse castle since I had all the exploration abilities, I was strong enough to beat most if not all enemies with little to no effort because I am used to the game and know what to expect from it. Now imagine if while backtracking through a previously explored area with enemies that I can kill without even thinking about it and I am faced with the suggested hunter group, and they are strong! That is a kick to the brain to get back in action. Better yet if you can't shake them off since they follow you from room to the next and you can't explore with such enemies on your back since they can make the possibly harder rooms ahead even harder, you can try to lose them by going through areas they can't cross (like the points connecting different sections of the castle or spiked hallways requiring special abilities to pass through) or you can lead them to a room that you can use to your advantage. It can be balanced right and it would give people who spend too much time in the same area or people who abuse the save point a challenge that speed runners and fast platforming favoring players wouldn't need to bother with. Another beef I had with the game is that the weapons didn't matter much and the items and spells rarely felt useful. At the same time, certain items felt so overpowered that I didn't use them because the game just broke. You have to add some dynamic response to the player's power and weapons in order to keep the challenge up; that is why static design isn't that great. If you can't design rooms while keeping all the available weapons in mind unless most of those weapons play the same (which makes it pointless to have them in the first place) and designing the room for one type of weapons while ignoring the others will make certain weapons overpowered and others totally useless (which makes it pointless to have them again). There are as many arguments against static design as there can be against procedural generated designs. Both can be used to make amazing things when done right but a balance between the two (while difficult) can create even better experience. Yes, but not in the way you suggested. Your suggestion was to give the player the option between a gimmicky and more difficult fight or have them take the fight to a second room for a more simple one. Here, the progression is decided by the crab. Shanoa couldn't just climb to the top of her own choice, she had to play the crab's game to work up to it. This is why I offered this as an intermediate option between what you suggested and most bosses, as it's very mobile and transition-heavy, but still noticeably fluid with the rest of the game Again you use the word "gimmicky" as if it is a bad thing and again you hang on to the example I gave to clarify the idea and forget the idea itself. If the player didn't know such a thing was possible (because it usually isn't) they only stand to discover it by chance which would result in a happy surprise (and sacrificing a boss fight for that is definitely worth it; such was the case of the fight with Galamoth in SotN). If the player knew about it, that knowledge can be used against the player to surprise him again (the enemy gets stronger in the other room instead of weaker). A harder fight with a better reward will still attract players who appreciate a challenge while players who don't care for the fighting as much as the exploring will appreciate the easier one. You only stand to gain possibilities with the only possible downfall is the failure of the game devs to apply the idea in a fun manner (and I believe in Igarashi). Also, that player defeated the crab with the same tactic from start to finish! The transition changed nothing! And playing the crab game meant that there is only one way to defeat that boss, no control for the player over how they face this boss. This is not a bad thing, but we have done that so many times already! I would like something else for a change. The core idea of games is to give control to the player; this is what I am calling for. Starting from the top, when saying that catlevania games were in the vain of obstacle courses, this is strictly on a room-to-room basis. In broad strokes, the game is is about exploration and recognition of mechanics needed to progress. I must apologize as I do not have any first-hand experience with either of your examples, but after some research, I will actually say that that appear to be igavnias to essentially the same degree. Both stress pattern recognition in enemies, though I cannot speak for the importance of backtracking in either. I disagree with what you find to be the core of our argument. If enemies don't all follow, what's the point of giving them advanced AI besides frustration? There really wouldn't be any difference in this AI over the current proximity-based enemy behaviors. So I'm going to ask what you seek to gain from an enemy that will not follow but has improved AI. I simply think you're overestimating the effect this would have. And there are always ways around monotony. Teleport rooms eliminate a lot of backtracking, and story elements can simply add new enemies to previous areas. As for weapons and spells, that's pretty much the name of the game. Finding powerful weapons and abilities are rewards for performance and exploration. For the last bit, I'll just say this; you're overscoping the control meant to be given to the player. The player should be able to approach problems in their own way, but not change the problem itself. Both in Castlevania and Bloodstained, the protagonist is deep in enemy territory, it doesn't make sense to give them agency over something like boss mechanics as the whole point to the be forced to play their game and win. It would be like invading an army base and when confronting a tank, saying that it isn't allowed to use it's mounted weaponry. It still isn't a free win, but it's nonsense to pick and choose what mechanics you want to see. Simply put, boss fights are about playing their game, not customizing the experience to your tastes in difficulty on the fly.
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cecil-kain
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Post by cecil-kain on Jul 22, 2015 0:24:48 GMT -6
Wow I was a little late to this heated discussion! lol
It's good to share and debate ideas, but just remember people are important too. We needed each other to help make this game happen and we still need each other to help this game reach its full potential. I appreciate you guys making the effort to maintain a civil tone.
Just to add my own 2 cents. Most of the monster behaviors we've seen haven't changed much since the very first Castlevania. Thankfully Igarashi has a fresh canvas to play around with monster AI. Mindless zombies are fine behaving like mindless zombies, but armored guards and hellish demons should have a healthy variety of attacks. As for a SAX-type enemy who can stalk you from room to room, that would be most appropriate for a boss --but context will make or break that idea.
Hard Mode is probably the most appropriate place to introduce challenging AI.
Something I'd really like to see are monsters who react to each other and work as a team to defeat you. I also like friendly fire. Suppose an Axe Armor chucks his namesake across the room, it should damage any monster stupid enough to get in the way! Maybe they could even block or jump over the Axe... All sorts of unexplored possibilities...
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Post by Neff on Jul 22, 2015 4:32:07 GMT -6
I think igavania games, have a place for enemies that simply look and die cool in each area. However, for higher difficulties, a lot of enemies would benefit in a improved reaction time and speed. Most fodder barely land an attack before dying, maybe change that up in hiher difficulties, when they immediately come in swinging, instead of saying something, staring at miriam for 6 seconds, then swiping a fist downwards.
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wiggychiggy
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Post by wiggychiggy on Jul 22, 2015 20:22:38 GMT -6
cecil-kain: I would like to ask your opinion on monster infighting which you mentioned in your last post. Do you think that all monsters should harm all others monsters? I think it would be slightly more logical for infighting to occur along monster "class" lines. For example, Axe Armor's projectiles would harm skeletons and any other creatures that would normally be harmed by an axe to the face, but other "Armor" class monsters would simply shrug it off or take one point of damage. Do you think bosses should be included in this infighting mechanic? If so, to what extent?
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Post by cecil-kain on Jul 22, 2015 22:58:47 GMT -6
cecil-kain: I would like to ask your opinion on monster infighting which you mentioned in your last post. Do you think that all monsters should harm all others monsters? I think it would be slightly more logical for infighting to occur along monster "class" lines. For example, Axe Armor's projectiles would harm skeletons and any other creatures that would normally be harmed by an axe to the face, but other "Armor" class monsters would simply shrug it off or take one point of damage. Do you think bosses should be included in this infighting mechanic? If so, to what extent? If friendly fire is implemented, it should be implemented consistently. That being said, there are certain circumstance where it makes sense for certain monsters to shrug off certain attacks. A Flame Demon born from the fiery pits of Hell really shouldn't be bothered by another Flame Demon's fireball, but those attacks shouldn't pass right through him either. Maybe he absorbs the fireball and becomes stronger, or maybe he catches it and throws it right at you! But let's consider the Axe Armor example I mentioned earlier. Suppose we have 2 Axe Armors. It makes sense for an Axe Armor A to shrug off another Axe Armor B's attack, but you can look at it another way. Let's suppose Axe Armor A catches Axe Armor B's Axe. Imagine being caught between 2 Axe Armors who are essentially "playing catch" with each others' axes! Similar classes like a Spear Knight may not be able to catch a giant axe, but maybe he can jump over it and try to impale you on his spear as he lands. As for Bosses... I think the Slogra and Gaibon fight in SotN is a perfect example of how nonboss monsters should work together to defeat the player. But if poor Slogra gets git by Gaibon's fireballs, he should take some damage --or at least defend himself against it. Unfortunately, boss teams like that are extremely rare (although the Castlevania 3 trio immediately comes to mind). Most bosses don't have any nonboss monsters around, and those few that do seem to have a master/minion relationship. And yes friendly fire should still apply as a general principle.
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Post by Rigel on Jul 27, 2015 14:52:35 GMT -6
I like the idea of rooms with traps, like the classic descending spikes, moving walls, or maybe a breakable floor which leads to a pit with a caged giant beast. The random stalker enemy also sounds good.
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Post by Dragon_of_Dojima on Aug 5, 2015 22:01:52 GMT -6
I second the idea of traps and specific stalker enemies, that could be a lot of fun and shakes things up quite a bit. The former certainly kept me on my toes in Rondo of Blood.
As far ideas for security, other than the obvious locked rooms, I'm thinking about how certain boss monsters would attack you in Terraria. For example in that game if you attack 3 hearts, a brain would rain down on you. You could possibly trigger this early on accident. It might just be schmuck bait, but it could easily create some memorable moments in Bloodstained.
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Post by XombieMike on Aug 16, 2015 13:53:00 GMT -6
This thread has been submitted for design review up to this post. More discussion is encouraged. If new original ideas come up for suggestion, please submit a new design review request.
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Dvv
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Post by Dvv on Aug 20, 2015 10:27:58 GMT -6
I would personally like to see the implementation of more traditional style traps. Accidentally step on a switch? Indiana Jones style boulder out of a secret compartment in the wall/ceiling will come at you. Accidentally step on an weirdly miscolored tile on the floor? Have a pitfall/spike trap open up, or have a trap on the wall that shoots out arrows. Having enemies that could activate traps too would be fun. Like say you see a skeleton by a switch/lever and is about to activate whatever kind of trap is set, if you were to kill it in time with a projectile you could negate the activation of the trap entirely. An idea for a trap of this type would be that if you failed to kill the enemy activating the trap in time the floor/bridge that you needed to cross in that room would fall and you'd have to take a longer way around.
I'm COMPLETELY for Gebel's castle having good defense. Having special monsters that chase you would make things exciting and would be a nice unexpected change from the norm. Like earlier posters said it would be something like Nemesis/SA-X. A complete disregard for the rules that have you learned up to this point that would cause shock because it shakes up what you think should be possible. Gebel have a specific Royal Guard type enemy that are trained to chase you would be super fun. I'd imagine they'd work similar to Nemesis as in they'd be WAY stronger then you or just stronger then the current enemies in that specific area, so you'd normally run away or hide but if you stood and fight it and actually beat it you'd get a good reward item.
As for what the opening poster said and having bosses that work this way I could see having human sized/shaped enemy that would later be a boss follow you around and that if you were to kill it you could make the boss weaker during the actual boss fight, like it would have less health or one of its more deadlier attacks would be locked away. Or heck if you could beat it while its giving you the chase then when you actually get to its boss room it would be empty and inside the empty boss room would be a special reward item for beating it, be it a special weapon/piece of armor/spell.
An idea for a pursuer type enemy/boss could be other humans that were also infected by the curse that have become Gebel's devoted subordinates that have vowed to protect him at all cost. Dracula often had underling characters be they human or vampire and this could be a way to work more in. It would be boring if the only human looking enemy that you fought is Gebel.
Having strong enemies or bosses chase you that you're encouraged to run away from also sounds like a good way to incentivize players to play NewGame+, as since you'd be stronger most players would be more OK with fighting an enemy of this type.
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Post by xxxcbenn on Aug 22, 2015 23:31:40 GMT -6
You know a Giant hedge maze before you get into the castle would be awesome. With some bridges and gazebos and statues maybe.Just please no skeletons on motorcycles that was really lame.
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Post by Lelygax on Aug 23, 2015 0:58:05 GMT -6
We need more natural or magic hazards, like spiky vines or pillars of fire that comes from the ground. In SotN when I first reached the Catacombs, I thought that lava would be a hazard and feared it, only to discover after some exploration that there is no way to fall in it, this was a let down at the time for me.
I know that IGA dislikes "pits of death" and "pixel perfect jumps", but why not include more traps and hazards that doesn't involve spikes? In SotN we had spikes, moving spike traps AND water, but in all subsequent games we only had static spikes as a non-enemy hazard. Maybe that is the missing piece that made it so much easier than classicvania titles, if they reintroduce it in this game it will become more challenging and make the player keep alert, since you can take care from enemies from afar but traps never can be destroyed and you need to deal with them.
This way you can be in danger even if you already can fly. Rondo of Blood is a good example of how great can be the variety of traps.
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Post by Dvv on Aug 25, 2015 16:57:09 GMT -6
We need more natural or magic hazards, like spiky vines or pillars of fire that comes from the ground. In SotN when I first reached the Catacombs, I thought that lava would be a hazard and feared it, only to discover after some exploration that there is no way to fall in it, this was a let down at the time for me. I know that IGA dislikes "pits of death" and "pixel perfect jumps", but why not include more traps and hazards that doesn't involve spikes? In SotN we had spikes, moving spike traps AND water, but in all subsequent games we only had static spikes as a non-enemy hazard. Maybe that is the missing piece that made it so much easier than classicvania titles, if they reintroduce it in this game it will become more challenging and make the player keep alert, since you can take care from enemies from afar but traps never can be destroyed and you need to deal with them. This way you can be in danger even if you already can fly. Rondo of Blood is a good example of how great can be the variety of traps. I agree wholeheartedly. Other then some spikes here or there Castlevania always felt like it was lacking any danger outside of the enemies.
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