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Post by legromancer on Jun 27, 2019 5:53:02 GMT -6
Title says it all. Yestarday i was at every location in my town which sells video games, basically big electronics chains who have outlets here and a brick-and-mortar store. None had a copy for the Switch, XBOX ONE or PS4. Yesterday the game was on #14 in the eshop charts and thats is ...not very good. Dead Cells and Hollow Night both charted way better. It also was not in the Steam charts top 10 when it debuted, afaik. The game is getting bad press lately thanks to the subpar Switch version and also before that the coverage was minimal. I really don't know but i feel the official site for the game is doing a poor job. The official site should be a place to inform and advertise the game to all that are interested in it and may think about purchasing it. I don't think it works. I also thinks the community here could be better as i stated in another thread. We should be welcoming to new players to this game and this genre, not everybody plays and understands these type of game. You know what game also had minimal coverage initially but the great community was welcoming to newcomers on so the game floorished over time? Warframe. Yeah, not really a perfect example but you get the idea. For me, it looks like Bloodstained is not gaining new players or not enought. I thing the future of this franchise is uncertain. But it does not have te be this way. Dead Cells and Hollow Night succeeded and i really, really believe it is because these games itself do a beter job explaining its mechanics to new players and so garnering new fans. It may be that a large portion of its players where/are familiar with these type of games but...why are they not buying Bloodstained?
Is there any info about the sales numbers? Do you see your freinds playing the game? I sure aren't seeing mine playing it on Steam or on the Switch. 505 or whoverer is burning money right now to get the Switch version fixed to an acceptable state but i don't see them regaining this investment. Maybe if the are releasing and Complete Edition or GotY Edition of the game with all DLC and patches included. That would be a possibility to get back some of the investment and get the game back to the spotlight (and also make it possible to play the game in 15-20 years from now because let'd face it:the servers for the consoles will be shut down and not online so downloading the patches will be impossible down the road).
I could be wrong about the sales but it sure does not look good at the moment.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jun 27, 2019 11:59:48 GMT -6
I mean, steamspy shows that there are 200k-500k owners on Steam alone, and for a $40 indie game that's pretty nuts. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
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Post by yulia11 on Jun 27, 2019 12:02:40 GMT -6
Title says it all. Yestarday i was at every location in my town which sells video games, basically big electronics chains who have outlets here and a brick-and-mortar store. None had a copy for the Switch, XBOX ONE or PS4. Yesterday the game was on #14 in the eshop charts and thats is ...not very good. Dead Cells and Hollow Night both charted way better. It also was not in the Steam charts top 10 when it debuted, afaik. The game is getting bad press lately thanks to the subpar Switch version and also before that the coverage was minimal. I really don't know but i feel the official site for the game is doing a poor job. The official site should be a place to inform and advertise the game to all that are interested in it and may think about purchasing it. I don't think it works. I also thinks the community here could be better as i stated in another thread. We should be welcoming to new players to this game and this genre, not everybody plays and understands these type of game. You know what game also had minimal coverage initially but the great community was welcoming to newcomers on so the game floorished over time? Warframe. Yeah, not really a perfect example but you get the idea. For me, it looks like Bloodstained is not gaining new players or not enought. I thing the future of this franchise is uncertain. But it does not have te be this way. Dead Cells and Hollow Night succeeded and i really, really believe it is because these games itself do a beter job explaining its mechanics to new players and so garnering new fans. It may be that a large portion of its players where/are familiar with these type of games but...why are they not buying Bloodstained?
Is there any info about the sales numbers? Do you see your freinds playing the game? I sure aren't seeing mine playing it on Steam or on the Switch. 505 or whoverer is burning money right now to get the Switch version fixed to an acceptable state but i don't see them regaining this investment. Maybe if the are releasing and Complete Edition or GotY Edition of the game with all DLC and patches included. That would be a possibility to get back some of the investment and get the game back to the spotlight (and also make it possible to play the game in 15-20 years from now because let'd face it:the servers for the consoles will be shut down and not online so downloading the patches will be impossible down the road).
I could be wrong about the sales but it sure does not look good at the moment.
Well what do you expect then the port to the one platform where this game would shine is so terrible?
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 27, 2019 12:10:44 GMT -6
haha nah man it's selling very well. The reason you may not have seen it in stores is because it was sold out. Online retailers were running out of stock pre-release (I observed this myself) It was #1 on Steam for a few days, and was on the front page there and on PSN. It's selling better than even my high expectations. See above for Switch. Later on, shortly before release, it was holding at #6, doing better than Three Houses pre-orders and right next to Pokemon Shield. Everything else in the top 10 were first party Nintendo games. The PS4 version was killing it on Amazon, being at #9 overall there of PS4 games last time I looked - it probably peaked higher than that. All considered, I think the initial estimate I thought of 2 mil in the first year was too low.
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 27, 2019 12:12:48 GMT -6
My brother got the last copy at a Best Buy the other day.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 27, 2019 12:29:41 GMT -6
When I go to the page right now on Amazon, it shows a "#1 New Release" tag. Currently #4 overall, just behind God of War and above KH3. edit: It's the #8 best selling video game period (Switch version) on Amazon the others in front of it are: #1 Mario Maker 2, BotW, Switch Crash Team Racing, Switch Lego Worlds, PS4 Cyberpunk 2077, Smash Ultimate, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, and then right after Bloodstained are PS4 Spider-Man and Link's Awakening pre-orders.
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Post by allooutrick on Jun 27, 2019 12:52:30 GMT -6
I've seen this game front and center on gog.com since release. Within the first few days it got over 10 pages of reviews. It looks like the game is doing incredibly well on this front.
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Post by python on Jun 27, 2019 13:10:02 GMT -6
If the minimum amount required to fund the game on kickstarter (500.000 dollars) was 10 % of what the publisher put on the table, the game budget could range from 5 to 10 millions. In any case, it won't need the sales numbers of AAA titles to be profitable.
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Post by gunlord500 on Jun 27, 2019 15:40:40 GMT -6
I mean, steamspy shows that there are 200k-500k owners on Steam alone, and for a $40 indie game that's pretty nuts. I wouldn't worry too much about it. That's very good, but one thing to keep in mind is that the game has probably cost far more than 5.5 million dollars to produce. IIRC, though I'd have to ask around to find it, not long after 505 came on board, Igarashi said the 5.5 million Kickstarter funds had already been "long gone." I believe, though again I'd have to ask to make sure, that 505 added in a decent bit of its own money to the project to do things like get Wayforward on board. If you put a gun to my head and asked me to estimate how much the game cost, especially after the delays relating to Inti, I'd say 15 million dollars as a conservative estimate.
Now, add to that the costs involved in
A: Getting out the free DLC, which was promised on Kickstarter, intended to be part of the base game, and therefore not anything the team can make money off of. They might be able to profit off of costume and story expansion DLC in the future, but the stuff we're looking forward to at the moment is not making us money in return for the continuing development costs.
B: Fixing a lot of bugs, which seem to be much more severe than anyone hoped for, especially at launch (the bad press of which might drag on sales at least slightly). Given the number and severity of those bugs, especially in regards to the Switch, I imagine fixing them is going to take a a considerable amount of cash.
So, with these two factors added in, I think they'd add anywhere from 5 million (at most) to let's say 2 million (if the "free DLC" stretch goals encourages a few more people to buy the game, and if the DLC is relatively easier to make thanks to the basic game systems and assets already completed). So again taking a conservative estimate, we're at a total of 17 million for development costs.
Now, going from the stats you gave, Mourning, if there are 200k sales on Steam, and the game is selling for 36 dollars (not 40, they're taking 10% off at the moment), we get
200,000 x 36 = 7,200,000, or 7 million and two hundred thousand dollars.
At the higher end, 500k copies, we get
500,000 x 36 = 18,000,000 or 18 million.
Now, the higher number alone would seem to net us a profit of 1 million over the initial estimated dev costs of 17 million. But keep in mind there are always Steam fees, taxes, and other things eating away at our profit margin. So I think under the most generous assumptions, we're making in income 60% of what steam reports in sales. So that would be 60% of 7.2 million or 4.32 million for 200k sales, or 10.8 million for 500k sales. So even being as generous as possible for Steam sales, we're still a good deal in the red. If PS4, Xbox, and Switch sales are even comparable to the higher end of the steam sales, that could push us back into the black, but I get the feeling we were relying on a lot of Switch sales and the problems with the Switch port might be severely eating into our sales on that front, which would leave a hefty impact on our end profits.
I don't think all is lost--it's been less than a month since release, and if we've already got a high end of 500k sales on Steam alone, it is conceivable we'll have well over a million (Steam combined with other platforms) before the year is out; even 50% profits of a million sales of 36 to 40 dollars (as the steam sale will end eventually) will allow us to turn a profit on 17-20 million development costs. And this is all napkin math anyways, it may be I've massively overestimated the development costs and/or the cut Steam and taxes take too. Still, even with very strong sales for an indie, I don't think we're entirely out of the woods yet...let's hope the coming DLC encourages a ton of new folks to buy the game!!!
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 27, 2019 15:54:22 GMT -6
I mean, steamspy shows that there are 200k-500k owners on Steam alone, and for a $40 indie game that's pretty nuts. I wouldn't worry too much about it. gunlordism
no it's selling 37585789247589398 copies $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ That is my math the end Even if we were "relying" a lot on the Switch (which already did/is selling a lot as I mentioned above), we're also still currently selling a heck of a lot of PS4 copies. If data from the feedback survey holds, there was a higher or at least equal share of them. Note that obviously these were backers and Switch was not an initial choice, but PS4 is probably about 90% of what Steam is.
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Post by Ciel on Jun 27, 2019 16:03:33 GMT -6
I mean, steamspy shows that there are 200k-500k owners on Steam alone, and for a $40 indie game that's pretty nuts. I wouldn't worry too much about it. That's very good, but one thing to keep in mind is that the game has probably cost far more than 5.5 million dollars to produce. IIRC, though I'd have to ask around to find it, not long after 505 came on board, Igarashi said the 5.5 million Kickstarter funds had already been "long gone." I believe, though again I'd have to ask to make sure, that 505 added in a decent bit of its own money to the project to do things like get Wayforward on board. If you put a gun to my head and asked me to estimate how much the game cost, especially after the delays relating to Inti, I'd say 15 million dollars as a conservative estimate.
Now, add to that the costs involved in
A: Getting out the free DLC, which was promised on Kickstarter, intended to be part of the base game, and therefore not anything the team can make money off of. They might be able to profit off of costume and story expansion DLC in the future, but the stuff we're looking forward to at the moment is not making us money in return for the continuing development costs.
B: Fixing a lot of bugs, which seem to be much more severe than anyone hoped for, especially at launch (the bad press of which might drag on sales at least slightly). Given the number and severity of those bugs, especially in regards to the Switch, I imagine fixing them is going to take a a considerable amount of cash.
So, with these two factors added in, I think they'd add anywhere from 5 million (at most) to let's say 2 million (if the "free DLC" stretch goals encourages a few more people to buy the game, and if the DLC is relatively easier to make thanks to the basic game systems and assets already completed). So again taking a conservative estimate, we're at a total of 17 million for development costs.
Now, going from the stats you gave, Mourning, if there are 200k sales on Steam, and the game is selling for 36 dollars (not 40, they're taking 10% off at the moment), we get
200,000 x 36 = 7,200,000, or 7 million and two hundred thousand dollars.
At the higher end, 500k copies, we get
500,000 x 36 = 18,000,000 or 18 million.
Now, the higher number alone would seem to net us a profit of 1 million over the initial estimated dev costs of 17 million. But keep in mind there are always Steam fees, taxes, and other things eating away at our profit margin. So I think under the most generous assumptions, we're making in income 60% of what steam reports in sales. So that would be 60% of 7.2 million or 4.32 million for 200k sales, or 10.8 million for 500k sales. So even being as generous as possible for Steam sales, we're still a good deal in the red. If PS4, Xbox, and Switch sales are even comparable to the higher end of the steam sales, that could push us back into the black, but I get the feeling we were relying on a lot of Switch sales and the problems with the Switch port might be severely eating into our sales on that front, which would leave a hefty impact on our end profits.
I don't think all is lost--it's been less than a month since release, and if we've already got a high end of 500k sales on Steam alone, it is conceivable we'll have well over a million (Steam combined with other platforms) before the year is out; even 50% profits of a million sales of 36 to 40 dollars (as the steam sale will end eventually) will allow us to turn a profit on 17-20 million development costs. And this is all napkin math anyways, it may be I've massively overestimated the development costs and/or the cut Steam and taxes take too. Still, even with very strong sales for an indie, I don't think we're entirely out of the woods yet...let's hope the coming DLC encourages a ton of new folks to buy the game!!!
Just a correction: Steam takes 30%, not 40%. I'm not sure of how much GOG takes for every sale, but I imagine it's 30% as well.
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Post by anonthemouse on Jun 27, 2019 16:43:49 GMT -6
Just to add to the discussion, let's point out that Gunlord's math shows that Bloodstained is potentially in the black from the sales of just one platform after little more than a week, during most of which time it wasn't even out on one platform yet. That's actually very good. Adding in Xbox and PS4 sales should push that to a "very likely". Switch sales numbers are hard to factor in, since the platform had a late start, but even after an initial cooling, the platform doesn't exactly seem to be doing poorly. Add to that the fact that the game in its current state has generally favourable ratings on Metacritic, and most of the DLC - which will almost certainly boost sales - hasn't even come out yet, and I don't think there's much to worry about. Plus, those numbers don't take into account added sales of the IGA's Backpack DLC, which being not free would bump things even higher.
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Post by dareka on Jun 27, 2019 17:19:17 GMT -6
I don't know, my math works out differently. The 5.5 million would have been close to the original, full budget. So let's say the game would have initially cost 6 million to make. After the Kickstarter, they would have had around 2 to 3 million in funds left to put into the game (remember that Kickstarter fees and the funds for backer rewards are also taken from the money raised). Let's be conservative and say 2 million. That would mean they needed the publisher to put up about 4 million to complete the game. Now, the game suffered delays, which obviously increase the budget. That said, if we assume that most of the budget was eaten up by asset creation, then the budget increased caused by the delay was not substantial; what may have been substantial was the funds needed to bring WayForward on board. Now, if WayForward's help cost them, say, another 2 million, that gives you a budget of about 8 or 9 million. Thus, I doubt the budget went past 10 million... and then there's the marketing budget. However, what ArtPlay put up through the Kickstarter might make up for this, so that 505 might have ended up spending ballpark 10 million in total, maybe even a lot less (3 million from ArtPlay with a total budget of 7 million equals 4 million from 505). So, 5 to 10 million is probably a good estimate of the money invested by 505, which means profitability just needs to exceed that amount. The "free" DLC is cheap to produce, because it simply requires programmers and game designers, as opposed to anything asset related (which requires scores of artists). Paid DLC is likely to come later, and this may be assumed to be priced to be profitable. As for profits per sale, it's 70% for Steam and I would assume something like 80% for GOG - since Steam is the market leader, you can be sure it charges more than GOG. If the Steam version sells 200 k, that's about 5 million right there. If the budget was on the low end, then they've broken even on Steam sales alone; if the budget was on the high end, then they'd need to sell twice as much, which is a bit under the high-end estimate of initial Steam sales. We can't know how the sales on GOG relate to the sales on Steam, but it does seem like total sales on consoles would double the Steam numbers; and while profit per unit sold is likely less on consoles, that's still a substantial amount. My guess is that the game won't lose money, and will very likely make a good deal of money. I'm not as optimistic as purifyweirdshard (though I'd love to be proven wrong), but I can easily see the game moving over a million units across all platforms over its lifetime. If the game weren't having issues on Switch, I'd be even more bullish about it. That said, I wouldn't expect 505 to gloat or tout sales numbers until the Switch version is fixed; doing otherwise might be bad PR. So I expect the publisher to be quiet on sales for the time being, but maybe make noise about it after the Switch version is fixed, or before releasing a Game of the Year Edition further down the road.
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Post by kandrax on Jul 23, 2019 8:40:35 GMT -6
The big question is, why would you care if YOU personally are enjoying the game? It's not like this is WoW or some other MMO that would require certain sales & subscription numbers to be enjoyable.
Bloodstained is just not that cookie-cutter AAA title the general crowd goes for these days. And I'm glad for that, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it. I just want my good, solid, late 90s gaming experience.
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Post by Brainiac on Jul 23, 2019 9:01:38 GMT -6
Just a correction: Steam takes 30%, not 40%. I'm not sure of how much GOG takes for every sale, but I imagine it's 30% as well.
GOG is indeed also 30%. I believe Humble is slightly lower and itch.io is significantly lower (even slightly lower than Epic).
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Post by gradius on Jul 23, 2019 9:40:28 GMT -6
I wonder something else... If the game sold well and made a healthy profit... Where from comes the need, to consider creating paid for, decorative items?
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jul 23, 2019 10:07:48 GMT -6
The big question is, why would you care if YOU personally are enjoying the game? It's not like this is WoW or some other MMO that would require certain sales & subscription numbers to be enjoyable. Bloodstained is just not that cookie-cutter AAA title the general crowd goes for these days. And I'm glad for that, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it. I just want my good, solid, late 90s gaming experience. Because if a game doesn't sell there's less possibility for a sequel or more content, or even just a new game from the same developer. Let's not act like indie developers don't want to make any money as opposed to the greedy "cookie cutter" AAA titles. They want to be successful and we're not some kind of elite audience because we go against "the general crowd".
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 23, 2019 10:11:10 GMT -6
Anyways Bloodstained is at 500k-1M copies sold on steam alone now in case anybody was still somehow worried about this.
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Post by Aztec on Jul 23, 2019 15:51:31 GMT -6
Anyways Bloodstained is at 500k-1M copies sold on steam alone now in case anybody was still somehow worried about this. So happy to read it just climbed from the 200k-500k tier to the 500k-1M tier! If Steamspy is to be believed and we go with the lowest number possible (500k) it must man that at least another 500k have been sold combining PS4, XB1 and Switch sales, right? This game must be past 1,000,000 copies sold right about now! But I'd figured we would've heard about it by now if that was the case so who knows? Maybe they're saving that announcement for later?
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Post by Astaroth on Jul 24, 2019 22:47:33 GMT -6
the new outfits are to keep the concept artists and modelers busy and in a job while the coders do their thing fixing bugs and implementing dlc, and on many games its also sort of a cooldown period while the team leads, the writer, and the director get together and brainstorm the next project
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