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Post by Enkeria on Apr 13, 2019 3:43:05 GMT -6
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Post by kamuiarikado on Apr 13, 2019 21:04:51 GMT -6
GREEN MAN GAMING REVEALS SOME NEW INFORMATION ABOUT BLOODSTAINED: ROTN I was reading the critical and positive Bloodstained: RotN EGX London demo impressions when I found the Green Man Gaming impressions article, and they revealed a bit of new information about the game that I didn't readed somewhere else. The following are paragraphs of the article in question: "I got to try out one that created a chainsaw of sorts that shredded enemies completely, and also one that simply fired an arrow. The Y attacks had mixed effects, one summoned a knight to attack for me while another sent a projectile along the ground. The RB seemed to be the metroidvania slot. I had one ability that let me grab and manipulate objects, and also one that turned me into a bunny girl." - The heretical grinder shard ability was in the EGX demo. - Knight familiar? also present in this demo. - Ability to grab and manipulate objects? I think this was in one of the Kickstarter updates but they didn't explained how it works and if it was a progression ability or something else. - Bunny Girl Miriam? Transformations confirmed!? Yay! Also:"The traversal feels good with a double jump being your main method of traversal. There is also a slide to get under low objects and potentially attack troublesome enemies. There were plenty of areas that hinted at other traversal abilities too. A lot of jumps were simply out of reach so a higher jump or a wall jump is no doubt hidden somewhere. I couldn’t swim when I found water, but there were definitely paths underwater, so you’ll gain the ability to swim at some point too." - I think we can find the Double jump shard early in the game. - Underwater areas probably confirmed!? Nice! Well I hope this information clears some doubts and fears about the game. SourceNote: It's important to take this information with a grain of salt, until we don't have a official confirmation of 505 games or ArtPlay about this revealed features. |
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Post by kamuiarikado on Apr 13, 2019 21:10:43 GMT -6
Thank you everyone!  I hoped you find it informative and useful.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Apr 13, 2019 23:42:16 GMT -6
Woah, some of that is definitely new. I'd seen the text/name of "Craftwork" as a shard, and maybe that's the "manipulate" thing they're talking about. Being able to use that and the underwater stuff they're talking about makes it sound like they played a different part of the game than everyone else. The..."transformation" thing sounds like a feature that they haven't had a chance to show yet. I think I know what enemy that is, too...
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Post by Pure Miriam on Apr 14, 2019 2:02:11 GMT -6
Wow, that is interesting information.
Let's see. My guesses are:
"created a chainsaw of sorts that shredded enemies completely" This is the Directional Shard Herectical Grinder.
"one that simply fired an arrow" Directional Shard True Arrow (before, named Straight Arrow)
"The Y attacks had mixed effects, one summoned a knight to attack for me" This can't be the Armor Familiar, because this is a Conjure Shard (Y) not a Familiar one. It is one of those "Summon Shards" inside Conjure Shards. A Conjure Shard we didn't saw yet.
"another sent a projectile along the ground". Most probably the Conjure Shard Gale Crawler (before, named Raging Gale)
"The RB seemed to be the metroidvania slot. I had one ability that let me grab and manipulate objects". This is the Manipulative Shard Craftwork. We didn't see it yet, but read it's description.
"one that turned me into a bunny girl". This is a new Manipulative Shard. I remember, back in the dub interviews, that one of the female actresses (that dubbed Bloodless) implied she also dubbed some kind of "chocolate loving" creature with long bunny ears. I think the game may have a Bunny girl boss and this may be it's shard. OR it is the Shard of a bunny girl enemy, the same from Curse of the Moon (that shows up on Bloodless stage).
" double jump being your main method of traversal". Skill Shard Double Jump.
"A lot of jumps were simply out of reach so a higher jump or a wall jump is no doubt hidden somewhere." That can either mean the game will have some kind of higher jump, some kind of transformation that let Miriam fly around or these areas can be reached with the Invert Skill Shard, by inverting the Castle's layout.
"I couldn’t swim when I found water, but there were definitely paths underwater". That's great. A confirmation that the game has some kind of ability to travel underwater.
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Post by Galamoth on Apr 14, 2019 8:04:31 GMT -6
It's good that we now effectively have confirmation of underwater sections of Gebel's Castle. It makes sense, considering said castle is surrounded by a lake.
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Post by RichterB on Apr 14, 2019 13:07:57 GMT -6
purifyweirdshard , rav4ishing , Pure Miriam , Enkeria , and all who liked my history discussion: As suggested, I've now got my previous post up into a full-fledged article: agoplus.wordpress.com/2019/04/14/bloodstaineds-challenge-when-history-and-perception-collide/. If you had something else in mind, let me know. I added an introductory section on the differences and relationship between Classicvania and Metroidvania and fleshed out a few more points so that it can be followed better by newcomers and longtime fans alike. I wanted to capture the spirit and ideas of the original post with more context. It's an editorial, so of course I have my own opinions on individual aspects, but I'm trying to create a baseline of understanding with this.
kamuiarikado , great job breaking down those analysis points and for finding that new [spoilery] info.  Not sure I should have read it, but man does it sound like this game has a lot of great tricks up its sleeves. I just hope the amount of ideas don't overwhelm the polish, because together, it would be absolutely amazing.
You know, with so many interesting connecting points like towers and lakes, I wonder if we're going to get a train station, too, like in Curse of the Moon.
More importantly for me, though, is if we have swimming and transformations, it gives me hope Bloodstained will have some kind of equivalent to the platform-swinging mechanic in Super Castlevania IV. I'm talking about the momentum kind, where you can move back and forth, rather than a simple zipline or catapult type. (Oh, and that the pushing animation will happen, too.)
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Enkeria
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Post by Enkeria on Apr 14, 2019 16:17:22 GMT -6
RichterB I linked it through FB. Awesome, will read tomorrow during my trip to work (1h 30 min travel).
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Apr 15, 2019 10:10:33 GMT -6
Angel-Corlux Question hey guys, this article is a comprehensive history, overview and explanation of what our genre and history is, expectations and fan mindset for Bloodstained, and the current context of the genre it's releasing in that I think could be useful to show and understand what we're about/the challenge we have, how fallible and incomplete memories obscure expectations etc. It could be great too for understanding the core, marketing, etc. It's a long read, so maybe save it for a meal break etc. RichterB's post earlier in this thread is a bit of a shorter, less paper-y rundown of the points themselves.
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Post by Enkeria on Apr 15, 2019 11:08:46 GMT -6
^ Enjoyed all 16 minutes of reading it  |
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Post by Galamoth on Apr 15, 2019 18:10:17 GMT -6
Still haven't read that WordPress article yet, so I'll begin reading now while I have time.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Apr 16, 2019 2:29:27 GMT -6
Great article. It worth each word i read it. Congratulations RichterB |
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Post by RichterB on Apr 16, 2019 14:24:19 GMT -6
Thanks again, everyone, for sharing and commenting! Hopefully it will at least foster a more open dialogue about what Bloodstained is trying to do. I realize it was lengthy, but I wanted to go step-by-step since everyone's entering into Bloodstained from a different place. Some have even only just played Curse of the Moon, it seems; and I think that the pre-SotN and/or pre-GBA history is especially lacking in casual conversations I've heard over the last few years from video game outlets.
Two asides:
1.) I realize now that I didn't include the 2006 GBA Castlevania: Double Pack into the sales numbers for HoD and AoS...but, even with those (+.10m), while closer, it was still pretty far off Circle of the Moon according to VGChartz.com, and Circle of the Moon didn't have the benefit of a physical re-release to compare, so I don't think that needed to be in the discussion. I was somewhat surprised myself, when I realized how well Circle of the Moon did; it shows a very unique point in time: the launch of a popular new Nintendo console, the first prominent exposure to "32-bit" portable graphics, and the first Castlevania "Metroidvania"--also known early on alternately as "Castleroid"--to follow SotN. I know I got it on launch, though at that point, I'd only played the early section of SotN once at a friend's house--like up to a little after Slogra and Gaibon--so I was just more interested in the fact there was a nice-looking new Castlevania, period.
Curiously...KCEK was reportedly dissolved in 2002, and members of its team were absorbed by KCET and IGA, where it's said they contributed to Portrait of Ruin (and I believe Order of Ecclesia). I'd be curious to know why they seemingly weren't involved with Harmony of Dissonance, considering it came out between June and October in 2002 in all regions, which means development would have finished up well before the December dissolution of KCEK proper. Did IGA pull rank to take charge (considering he wasn't a big fan of Circle of the Moon, at least back then according to an interview)?
2.) It's interesting to note that the "Metroidvania" concept of Symphony of the Night began as a spin-off of the main series. IGA's mentioned that in the past, how it was intended to be sort of an alternative vs. mainline Castlevania entry. But its critical success changed all that, and I think ironically Circle of the Moon was the confirmation of that. There's a write-up I've been wanting to do for a while about the status and development process of Castlevania in 1999--our 1999, that is, not the game world's climatic and never-seen 1999 battle. I think that was a make-or-break year for Castlevania's future expansion in the marketplace with the N64 titles, and that discussion about SotN's initial development mission would fit in there. I've got most of the research, I just have to find the time to put it together. I guess I was always hoping some more information would come out over time with some modern interviews from KCEK staff, but I think I'll have to go with what I've got, which is enough to make something really thought-provoking.
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Post by exile on Apr 16, 2019 14:40:30 GMT -6
Richter, I shrink before your encyclopedic knowledge of the genre. That was truly impressive. Beyond an academic exercise, it was also very illuminating about the somewhat murky evolution of the "Metroidvania/Igavania" sub-genre. All I know is that the game looks phenomenal to me. As you identified, it seems to integrate most of the best aspects of Castlevania through the years, and the way it seems to be coming together coherently is nothing short of a marvel. I hope it's as fun as it looks.
This is coming from someone who enjoys the new iteration of "Metroidvanias," but none so much as progenitor of the them all--SoTN. The fact that Bloodstained bears all the telltale marks of that game is a huge plus for me. All I ever wanted was a modern update to that masterpiece. I think that's the challenge this game faces, in the media and among modern gamers, that we simply wanted an update of an old favorite, not a complete reworking from the ground up.
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Post by kamuiarikado on Apr 16, 2019 19:26:24 GMT -6
I think your article is brilliant, well written and researched, and goes straight to the point. Outstanding work! RichterB |
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Post by Angel-Corlux on Apr 18, 2019 23:35:21 GMT -6
It's been a crazy busy time and I'm just seeing this, looking forward to reading this
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Post by RichterB on Apr 19, 2019 18:53:35 GMT -6
Hi Angel-Corlux Aside from the article, there have been some threads and discussions about feedback after the latest demo since you last posted that you might want to take a look at, if you haven't already. (Obviously, development continues to move on, and all of this may be superfluous at this point.) 1.) Regarding the inconsistent overlapping of Miriam and platforms, with images comparing to past IGAvanias as you scroll down, etc.: bloodstained.forums.net/thread/3952/problem-last-trailer-april-2019 2.) Regarding the development of Minerva area, especially what happened to the hidden map room and if some of the detailed assets were lost when Inti Creates left: bloodstained.forums.net/thread/3955/happened-minervas-map-room3.) This current thread, from page 3 to where it is now had a lot of comments and images about pushing animation, wood textures, asset physics, etc: bloodstained.forums.net/thread/3949/newest-build-footage-egx-london?page=3There is some overlap in these threads at points. Thanks, as always! |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Apr 19, 2019 21:05:39 GMT -6
I believe the points that began to shape the article began from a shoutbox conversation between us, and then your forum post which I thought would go to waste not being seen by more... congratulations on that. It really reminds me of my thread here that may have been best expressed externally like I advised for yours... bloodstained.forums.net/thread/2855/deconstruction-metroidvania-rising-igavaniaThe point is out there now though, so I'm happy. |
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Post by RichterB on Apr 20, 2019 16:30:01 GMT -6
I believe the points that began to shape the article began from a shoutbox conversation between us, and then your forum post which I thought would go to waste not being seen by more... congratulations on that. It really reminds me of my thread here that may have been best expressed externally like I advised for yours... bloodstained.forums.net/thread/2855/deconstruction-metroidvania-rising-igavaniaThe point is out there now though, so I'm happy. Thanks once more. Glad you felt it did the discussion justice.
Yeah, I was reporting (somewhat incredulously) on the feedback from outlets on the new demo in the shoutbox, and we were talking about how there was a seeming gap in understanding and/or expectations. (In retrospect, looking again at some of those preview impressions, they're not all bad, on the whole.) Then I thought about it more in historical context, particularly with that one article that brought up The Messenger and Cyber Ninja, and did that post. You suggested I should put that post up outside the forums, and I felt if I was going to do that and make it stand on its own, I needed to flesh it out some more. I wrote the vast majority of that off the top of my head, with the exception of double-checking the dates and looking up some recorded sales figures.
I'm not sure if it got very far beyond the Bloodstained faithful, though....
I do remember you posting that older thread, now that you mention it. Actually, ironically, that just reminded me that I did one of those threads myself -- bloodstained.forums.net/thread/3607/overuse-metroidvania-misuse-castlevania-media -- that same year, which is when you first pointed me to that thread of yours. The IGN.com line: "Dead Cells Might Be The Best Castlevania Game in Years...Is it the perfect evolution of the Castlevania formula? Probably," followed by The Verge's line: "Dead Cells is the best Castlevania game in years" had set me off to write that one. Yikes. (Those headlines are case-in-point examples of what's going on. I don't mean to overstate things, but it really irks me; it almost feels like someone saying "this hamburger is the best chicken I've had all year.")
Both of our threads there from 2018, though, get further into the nitty-gritty of comparing each different sort of interpretation of the Metroidvania genre, piece by piece, so it actually could still be built up into something more focused on one-to-one comparisons of specific mechanics or design choices (like Dead Cells' diverging roguelike elements) if one wants to. I didn't go in that direction with this new article as, not unlike my 2018 post, I was most bothered with these broad strokes:
A.) Castlevania = Metroidvania.
B.) Castlevania = Any Action-Platformer birthed in the '80s.
C.) Metroidvania = Anything that's non-linear-ish with backtracking.
I dug fairly deep on these in that 2018 post, here and here.
But to those older posts, I'll add that one additional reason that "A.)" is problematic is because people say that Curse of the Moon is like Castlevania and/or Castlevania III: Dracula's Curse...and ergo, if it's like a series or specific game with the name Castlevania in it, that must mean it's a Metroidvania. So then, when people played and enjoyed Curse of the Moon without any context or vague context, they're like, "I like Metroidvanias, I'm interested in Bloodstained, and I expect Ritual of the Night will play the same sort of way." Listening to an Anime News Network podcast a while back, and I'm paraphrasing here, the host said that Curse of the Moon was everything he wanted from Bloodstained's Kickstarter revival of Symphony of the Night--which, as an aside, he felt Mirror of Fate failed in--and that Ritual of the Night was basically dull-looking and virtually unnecessary now. While I totally get why Mirror of Fate wasn't the ticket, equating Curse of the Moon with Symphony of the Night is curious, which is why I had to take the time, admittedly grating as it might have been to some, to again define Classicvania and Metroidvania and explain what fits where.
Getting back to this lack of perception brought on by confusing history, I've been glancing through posts on news stories about the Castlevania Anniversary Collection, and what keeps coming up is: "Symphony of the Night should be on this; how could they not include it?!"...as if it's the only game that ever has or will matter to Castlevania, and when, furthermore, the website states: "This KONAMI Castlevania Collection is designed to be a collection around the origins of the historic franchise...[N]ow [is] the best time to relive these timeless classics that helped define the platformer genre." That's, again, part of why I went out of my way to have that Classicvania discussion in the article.
It's so disappointing, even tragic, how fragmented Castlevania fans are. I've talked with someone, by the way, who loved Castlevania 1, 3, and Super Castlevania IV, loved Lament of Innocence, and was intrigued a little bit by the Rondo of Blood DXC 2.5D remake, but basically doesn't accept any of the others. When I showed him both Curse of the Moon and Ritual of the Night, he said, they look pretty cool, but are more like proof-of-concepts for a full 3D game, and he'll play them when they get out of 2D or 2.5D into full 3D. Make of that what you will.
I actually pitched to some larger outlets a few different freelance articles along the lines of the article I wrote and/or the posts noted above around the time that the Castlevania and Super Smash Bros. Ultimate crossover was announced, but none of them were picked up. I've noted it before, but I'm still developing a spin-off of one of those articles in my spare time for an independent release that deals with the development history and resulting releases of Castlevania in the N64 era, which will have some crossover with these topics and even connect somewhat to Bloodstained in terms of disseminating a franchise long-term. I'm about halfway through, but I'm not sure when I'll get to the rest of it, partially because of how many researched details need to be put in order. It will definitely cover some new (and at times, controversial) ground, though.
In the meantime, somewhat related, I'm also starting to wonder if the trouble with Metroidvania in how it pertains to Castlevania has another historical problem. It deals with a very specific thematic aesthetic. IGA distanced himself a bit from the old-school Universal/Hammer Horror Movie universes, but there's still some of that baked into the later Castlevanias and now Bloodstained. It's not a wholly made-up-from-scratch fantasy world, ala Dark Souls. The problem with that rather defining element to these games (which I think is crucial to their identity), is that I'm not sure it has much cultural cachet. Movie attempts to revive Dracula and the Mummy in recent years haven't yielded much, and the references to them have become either less frequent or more comedical in pop culture, whereas that wasn't the case in the 80s and 90s, and even leading into the early 2000s somewhat, when Castlevania was most discussed. For some, it will just seem corny or off-putting, and this just goes to a shift in cultural icons.
Richter, I shrink before your encyclopedic knowledge of the genre. That was truly impressive. Beyond an academic exercise, it was also very illuminating about the somewhat murky evolution of the "Metroidvania/Igavania" sub-genre. All I know is that the game looks phenomenal to me. As you identified, it seems to integrate most of the best aspects of Castlevania through the years, and the way it seems to be coming together coherently is nothing short of a marvel. I hope it's as fun as it looks. This is coming from someone who enjoys the new iteration of "Metroidvanias," but none so much as progenitor of the them all--SoTN. The fact that Bloodstained bears all the telltale marks of that game is a huge plus for me. All I ever wanted was a modern update to that masterpiece. I think that's the challenge this game faces, in the media and among modern gamers, that we simply wanted an update of an old favorite, not a complete reworking from the ground up.
I appreciate your kind words. To this point, Symphony of the Night and Circle of the Moon are the ones that stick with me the most as having an impact on me in terms of "Metroidvanias," though the reason I was able to enjoy them came partially from the notion of seeing them as extensions of Simon's Quest rather than the final evolution of the Castlevania franchise. For me, I've accepted that Bloodstained is a continuation of Symphony of the Night, with some of the tricks added in the later GBA and DS titles, and some tricks of its own, but have been pleasantly surprised along the way that it seems to be making some thoughtful concessions to fans of the pre-SotN games. So, like I wrote before, it looks to be getting the job done for those who wanted a big Symphony of the Night follow-up/successor, and for me it comes down to being the closest thing to expressing the Castlevania franchise as a whole in the modern marketplace, even if it leans much more toward SotN. My only hangup comes from seeing Castlevania longitudinally as one continuous thing, of which SotN is part of but doesn't define or cap off Castlevania's would-be destiny.
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Post by Mr. Welldone on Apr 22, 2019 8:58:22 GMT -6
Recently I have played Hollow knight and I think it is a masterpiece, a game with beautiful art, music, tight gameplay, hard but enjoyable, really a unique game. After playing it, I look forward to the sequel Silksong even more than Bloodstained RotN. Hey Mr. Welldone , I think this guy would like a word.  Brainiac, SHOCK. SHOCK AND OUTRAGE.
ReySol, please report to your Commissar for summary BLAMming.
The Emperor protects.
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I hoped you find it informative and useful.
Not sure I should have read it, but man does it sound like this game has a lot of great tricks up its sleeves. I just hope the amount of ideas don't overwhelm the polish, because together, it would be absolutely amazing.
