What Igarashi can learn from Mirror of Fate...

I think MoF did a lot right. I've only played the hd version but found it to be a fine evolution of the Igavania style, while imposing some the LoS style into it as well. I have always preferred the ability to grab ledges in platforming games, and I found the climbing sections a welcome addition. I also enjoyed the combo system but understand Iga's reasoning for not including something like that in his games. But for me where MoF really shined was art direction and storytelling. I am incredibly excited that Iga is going the 2.5D route, I used to be against gothic games in that style but both DXC and MoF showed how beautifully it could be pulled off. In my opinion these games had the most "alive" environments in the series. In terms of storytelling MoF did what Iga always tried too, kept it simple. This was where the main LoS games really faltered, they tried to tell massive, melo dramatic stories that just fell flat on their faces under the weight of their seriousness, and drawn out dialogues. MoF kept it simple and concise, just enough to move the story along and keep the player interested. In spite of this it was able to handle emotional depth and weight to a level that basically no other game in the series ever has. I hope Iga doesn't just ignore what was done here to advance the genre.

BTW Cecil, you might remember me. I used to post on several Castlevania forums back in the day as "Jerkofwonder", I have matured a bit since then. =)

Meh, I don't like straight up swimming. I feel like MoF slows down a lot of what makes IGAVANIA games great. Combat in igavania is simple slashing and it keeps the pace quick whereas Mof you have a combo system which slows down pacing a lot. Water is treated the same in terms of walking but it gives it a moon like effect, whereas Mof slows it down by straight up swimming mechanics and oxygen supply.

I feel like what makes IGAVANIA games so fun is that it never gets bogged down by anything. Exploration is always quick and has that majestic like nature to it. In other words, I'd love for swimming to stay out and they keep it very classic in how they do it. I always thought the jumping in water was a lot of fun to be honest. There's very few things I dug about the MercurySteam vania's.....That was in part by their intent on staying clear from the IGAVANIA way of doing things and honestly Bloodstained is all about bringing Igavania back. That doesn't mean they can't expand on the IGAVANIA formula but I definitely hope they don't take away the things that I feel are essential to it.

I've not played Mirror of Fate, but I'm going to purchase it on steam myself and check it out. I'm semi-interested now!

When I get home this evening I'll get the books back out again, take a quick read, and post here what I find concerning that.

What about a transformation into some kind of fishwoman/mermaid/deep one type creature? That would solve the problem of breathing underwater.

Haven't played the MoF game yet, but I do hope they add some good underwater levels. Loved the water exploration in Metroid Prime. It's true that some water levels slow down the game pace a lot, but maybe the earlier water levels could be optional for someone to explore if they choose to. Not force someone to go through with it until later when they get an item/relic to help them navigate those earlier levels faster and help them push through some sort of natural barricade (like oxygen-capacity). At the same time, earlier water levels should reward the player appropriately for taking the time to exploring what they could earlier in the game (such as a strong item to craft a weapon with).

Ok! So regarding Vampires and water.

From:




Running Water:
      Many tales state that vampires are exceptionally vulnerable to running water. For most vampires this is at least partially true. A vampire that is totally immersed in rapidly flowing water should be involuntarily reduced to gaseous form in a matter of minutes. There are several vital considerations to keep in mind, however. First, the water in question must be rapidly flowing; oceans, creeks, slow streams, and the like will not suffice. Second, the word "immersed" has a specific meaning in this context: fully three-quarters of the vampire's body must be below the surface of the water, and this portion must include the entire chest, from the creature's waist to its neck. (In essence, the monster's hear must be immersed.) Vampires are as capable of floating or treading water as any humanoid creature. Thus, merely throwing a vampire into a river and waiting for it to expire will probably not work. The vampire must be so held that its entire chest is completely immersed for at least one minute in order to inflict any damage whatsoever upon the creature.
      As is so often the case with vampires, this is much easier said than done. The creature is hideously strong and the panic engendered by even partial immersion seems to give the creature additional reserves of strength. Often the attacker becomes the attacked.
      The monster can also use its many spell-like powers to destroy those who would try to hold it under. Luckily, as soon as the creature is even partially immersed in running water, it is incapable of voluntarily assuming gaseous form. It can, however, shapechange into a another form.
      If the attempt is successful, the results are quite extreme. Should the creature be kept suitable submerged for only three minutes, it is forced into gaseous form - which bubbles to the surface - and must flee to its sanctuary.

DM Section:
Immersion in Water
      If a vampire is even partially immersed in running water, it temporarily gains the STR associated with the next highest age catagory. Thus a Fledgling vampire dumped into a river will temporarily enjoy a Str of 18/91, rather than its normal 18/76. This temporary Str bonus vanishes as soon as the creature is out of the water. In addition, if the monster's arms aren't somehow constrained, it gets a +4 bonus on all attacks against any characters physically trying to hold it underwater. (This bouns represents both proximity and the fact that its foes are concentrating on holding it under.)
      At the end of each complete round that the vampire has been immersed, it looses one-third of its maximum hit-point score. As soon as it is driven to zero or fewer hit points, it assumes gaseous form.
     Example: A vampire has a maximum hit-point total of 60 hit points. In combat with a group of adventurers, the creature suffers 25 points of damage from an enchanted sword, giving it a current score of 35 hit points. To ass insult to injury, it is then unceremoniously dumped into a fast-flowing river, with six burly warriors holding it down. At the end of the first round, the creature loses 20 hit points - one-third of its normal total of 60 - which drops it to a current total of 15 hit points. At the end of the second round, it loses another 20 points, dropping it to -5. With a strangled curse, the creature reverts to gaseous form.
      If a vampire is immersed in a large quantity of holy water, the creature loses on-half of its total hit points per melee round so immersed. All rules relating to immersion in running water - Str bonus, attack bonus, etc. - also apply. Even if the monster is not totally immersed, it still suffers 2d6+2 points of damage on every round that it is even partially immersed.


And just for clarification of the above, this is verbatim from AD&D or D&D 2nd Edition.
In 2nd Ed. strength scores max out at 18 after which a percentile score is added too it. It has been too long for me to remember how that works and I don't feel like re-reading the players guide to figure it out again.
Also, a round, which is a unit of time during combat, is approximately one minute. That may sound like a lot of time but remember everyone involved gets a "round" to perform actions in and so all the actions of you and the other characters are all occurring in the same "round" each round.

Not sure how many of you will find that interesting, but I found the book to be an extraordinary read and really fleshed out a lot of the lore that I knew of vampires as well as presenting some newer ideas. If you ever get the chance, all of the Van Richten's guides are written in this manner and are equally informative.

This might seem mean but i'm kinda sincere with this comment...

What can IGA learn from Mirror of Fate?

How not to do a 2.5 Castlevania type game. IMO

I honestly think their whole approach of that game was wrong. I mean, don't get me wrong. Obviously people could enjoy that but it missed the point on what made IGAVANIA's so exciting.

1. The pacing - Igavania games are always about the feeling of attacking while moving. Jump slash kill move...platform jump killing enemies etc....

Whereas in MoF, it's a heavy combo system so you see an enemy...stop in place. whip them for far too long, block for far too long...kill then move...stop....whip for far too long.. The puzzle mechanics...everything is about slowing the game down. It starts feeling less majestic and free flowing and more fighter game set in a big world.

2. Exploration-  Igavania games the layout is very important and it's one giant area that is a joy to explore.
In MoF the layout is made in a way where it's not particularly enjoyable to revisit areas, it might be because a lot of the game feels very drab and very modern day gothic. What I mean by that is generic.... When you look at IGAVANIA games they have a lot of very cool areas some being very unique with a lot of interesting design choices. A lot of MoF was drab in comparison with areas that look overly similar to each other in design...It also feels like a more ... Linear progression that has open endedness whereas IGAVANIA's feel naturally open in a true castle type of sense.

3. Realism is not the way to go. I feel like with Mercurysteam they went with again a very modern day gothic feel to it. The enemy designs, the character designs, the music, everything felt modern day and less 90's. I think part of the charm of IGAVANIA's is it has a very 90's feel to it. It's got a very goofy charm to it. It also has a very anime ( not cartoon style) but in the sense of coolness. For instance, when Alucard gets hit by an enemy he flies all the way across the screen and balances himself with his feet off the wall. A very anime inspired type movement. It's not natural at all, it's totally for the cool factor but MoF abandons those little details, it goes for realism... Down to how you actually have a real swimming mechanic with an oxygen meter. It's trying to modernize with the times but when it's not broken there's no need to fix.

4. Soundtrack- It goes for a Hollywood orchestrated sound. It started focusing on grand movie type music production. Which is fine and all but part of the fun of castlevania was the catchy tunes. Now, believe it or not but the catchy tunes actually makes it fun to traverse the environments. The main characters movements times with the musical beats and hooks is part of the fun subconsciously. I remember in the Dev play of SOTN with IGA, the woman ( forget her name) said she used to time her attacks on the flea men with the beats of the music in the library. The catchy tunes has such a huge play into the feel of a game and when you take away that immediacy and that fun nature the game feels........less fun.

5. A focus on puzzles and switches and wheels you need to turn and platforms you CLIMB onto. Those type of elements like stated before slow down the pacing. The 2d games are fun because of how it feels like the action never stops.

6. Item drops - The fun of an IGAVANIA is also all the different items you can get. Knowing you won't get anything cool from enemies kinda kills the fun in fighting anything. Seeing a medusa in SOTN meant the possibility of getting a medusa shield which upped my excitement in hitting them every chance I get. Which then interplays into the previous point of .....if the game had a combo system it'd be less fun and take even more time to kill certain enemies.

7. Unique items that have important - MoF goes the traditional route of the old castlevania games but what makes an IGAVANIA fun is all the subtle little touches and nods... Peanuts that you throw and if you don't catch them you don't eat them. Boots that can increase your characters height. Capes that change how your character looks. Etc


I probably could think of more but that's all I got right now. Sorry for the huge blocks of text.