*Discussion* Does 2d hide the flaws better than 2.5d?

I think to that end you have three issues

Nostalgia: People remember the previous Igavanias being faster than they were or, even if they played them recently, they have such strong positive memories associated with those games that its hard to evaluate those old games

Changing Standards: What people liked 10 years ago isn't always what they like now. Even if they still generally like Metroidvainias or specifically the Iga rendition of the formula, they may not be able to stomach games of the same speed as much as they once did. We gotta remember they are describing what they are seeing not what they are feeling or gameplay generally (since most haven't and can't play the game).

Animation: You already touched upon this since its the initial premise of your thread but things do animate and look differently in 2D vs. 2.5D. I wouldn't phrase it as "hides flaws better" more so that you've got to model/draw/animate somewhat differently using 2D/3D to get the same results - the number of dimensions you use matters. So yeah, that is 100% turning some people off - there's nothing you can really do about this and Iga made his choice for his reasons. I mean he could make tweaks to Miriam's animations or framerate but its not clear to me he has any desire or intention to do so. As such, everybody on each "side" of this issue is just going to have to accept mild disappointment/disagreement.

I think more than anything people need to get their hands on the game and play it for themselves. What looks weird on video can feel much better in your hands playing. I know originally it seemed a bit slow for me too till I played it. Then it clicked and was like...yup this is IGAVANIA. I still think maybe the animation might be what's off though, not the speed or the floaty feeling but the animation for all of that.

A Lot has been said, so, i don't have any meaningful contribution to make at this thread. I agree with most of what you all said. I just wanna advise that there are always some trolls ,and you all should ignore those people.

I Saw one guy once saying that Miriam design was horrible and that she looked like a cheerleader. You know, Miriam, that character obviously inspired by Shanoa, to the point they have the same color pallete (black and blue). That is not a useful criticism, is just trolling. It would do you good to step further away from that.

In all honesty.
I think no Castlevania game has ever been really fast anyway, even the older ones (maybe especially the older ones).
While there are parts in which you are required to use faster reflexes, the series has always been about more precise platforming, exploration and mostly knowing how to time your attacks, dodge, make good use of your extra weapons, and so on.
Most of the earlier games had incredibly intense moments where you had to jump, crouch and basically avoid attacks coming from all types of directions (like the famous Medusa Heads flying in one pattern, next to the Axe Knight that throws the axe like a boomerang, or the various moments with stairs/falling blocks/pits where you couldn't even attack properly).

These games need you to take your time, analyse the situation and learn how to get through the challenges offered.
None of the games were about rushing through the stages as fast as possible (rushing mindlessly generally gets you damaged or killed in some way), and it's just the nature of the game, if it was super fast it would be counter-intuitive, while there are some speed upgrades in the IGAvanias, it's never some super speed anyway.
You can play fast if you master the gameplay and enemy behaviour, but that's about it.

If you think about it, the only games where the slow speed really was a problem were the earlier Game Boy games.

I don't think the speed in the Castlevania games are really a flaw, because these aren't the type of games for a fast paced gameplay anyway, think of Contra, another Konami game from around the same time, Contra is a more fast-paced game, the enemies are faster, the bullets are fast, everything is fast. And it's just natural because that game is a Run n' Gun, so it naturally requires you to run, shoot and overall react really fast to the objects coming at you.

But in contrast, Contra is very straight forward, in the most literal way, the platforming is pretty simple, you go either in a straight vertical or horizontal path and that's it. The focus is on combat, if you try to play it in a slower way, it might get you killed. It's frenetic.
Castlevania on the other hand, has focus on the platforming, avoid enemies, you have a little more time to react most of time, it has precise jumping in some moments, and it has the weapons are slower, generally low-ranged, but you are given more options, there's some more strategy other than just being fast.

Which is completely normal.

While I don't mean there are no flaws in these games, I just mean that sometimes the speed is ideal, even if we just don't notice.
I know some games suffer from having player sprites that are too big or too fast, or both, since the stages conflict with those mechanics.

That said, I'm sure this will eventually be changed, since the game is still being worked on.
And I'm also sure there will be in-game power ups to make the player faster.

I know it's the exception and not the rule, but I wanted to point out that Harmony of Despair was basically exactly this.

And Castlevania hasn't been about precision platforming and taking it slow to critically avoid making mistakes since 1997, save for Chronicles afaik. The closest to that was Circle of the Moon and from what I understand, even that chilled out once you got a good handle of the DSS system.

Maybe Ecclesia brought some of that back? I haven't played it. But from the looks of it, precision platforming still isn't a factor.

Yes, there will be a sprint / dash skill. You already have the kick after double jump, the slide once you (in this new build) equip the kung fu shoes, a thing you could do without the shoes in the e3 2016 demo. You also have the back-dash thingy that will rip up the dust from the ground. There will be faster weapons too and magical skills. More passive skills too.

The speed is no issue in a game about exploration.

I respect your opinion if you want the game to be quicker and less floaty ( but you should really get your hands on it first ).

Here's my thing about all this though. Let's look at Sonic games for a second, whenever Sega makes sidescrolling sonic games one of the main issues that people start with are the physics don't feel right. The feel of sonic doesn't feel correct. Sonic games have a certain style, is it out of date? Is it out of style? If anything it has it's own style and feel. They don't change it too drastically because they it wouldn't feel right and it wouldn't feel like Sonic.

Now in this case you have a game that is very clearly aimed to be a game that looks, feels, and plays like IGA's other games. Is that out of date? I don't think so, he has his own feel to his games. People keep talking about speed but everyone on this forum knows you get various upgrades for travel in these games and the contrast between the slow start and the quicker latter game is nice. We know she has a dash ability as seen in a recent update. More than anything when has anyone ever complained to this extent about the feel of his games? It used to be a pro in this series that his games felt great. The complaint that its too slow and too floaty has arisen out of nowhere on a wide scale. The fear to change the game to a snappier version, with more speed isn't that it couldn't work but then he's not making a game in his style but he's aping other games on the market and how they feel. That's certainly not what I signed up for, I signed up for an IGA game. It's like Sonic Maniac, they're making a game that is clearly filling a void for fans except in this case people have issues with obvious things about it.  You think fans of Sonic Maniac would were hoping the game would feel a void would ignore the traits of the games it's filling the void of? You think it'd do well if it didn't FEEL like the other games?

I honestly believe that the ONLY reason this is an issue when it wasn't before is simply because it's 2.5d. It just doesn't look as right animation wise in 2.5d. We are all used to seeing 2.5d look and move snappier and to see one of the only games out there to do a more slower  floaty take of it sticks out. I don't have a problem with that look because i've played it and it feels so damn right to me. I admit that, that could be the issue here.

Dude. I just want to feel good about myself killing evil things.

Most of us on this board know about speed upgrades you tend to get later on in Igavanias (which again throws some water on the "actually its supposed to be slow" argument). Many of those criticizing the game don't know that. Also, you can't really say "don't worry you'll get speed upgrades later" to someone who says "X looks slow" because people can really only criticize what they can see/play and to be honest if none of us here (who follow the game way more closely than your average backer or just person who looks into the game every once in a while) had squinted our eyes to see that .05 sec bit in that trailer with the speed dash, then we would have to be making assumptions too!

I'd also add that 10 years ago, Facebook and Twitter were in their infancy and the forums that are still around today were smaller in the past. Just because you didn't hear people who had these complaints about Igavanias in the past doesn't mean they didn't exist. 

With regards to the Sonic comparison, I think there are just more people who like Classic Sonic games than do Castlevania games, there are fewer alternatives to Sonic games (there is a huge variety in how Metroidvanias play but its also a well explored genre with lots of quality titles) and I would still say Sonic Mania seems/looks a step above previous Sonic games with regards to level design and other matters. I see what you're trying to say but I'm not 100% sure its a 1 to 1 comparison? Maybe I'm wrong I dunno


It's hard to talk about the mini-game because we know literally nothing about it. It would just be 100% speculation. It's nice to dream sometimes but I figure it has its limits

I'm still glad its going to be a thing though