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Post by asterra on Jul 6, 2016 2:20:22 GMT -6
Now that I've had a chance to review the shaders everyone was voting on while I slept, my mild disdain for the look of the demo's boss has come into focus. The thick black outlines are a problem. Also a problem is the light cyan glow emanating from the lower-left background, casting a light cyan glow on oblique surfaces. This gives Miriam, enemies, etc. a Super Mario Galaxy-like glow on their outer edges, in light cyan. Same goes for the boss, who becomes positively saturated with the color at times. Unavoidably and probably intentionally, this makes things look very cartoony. When I compare this to the no-nonsense, unsaturated, breathtaking look of the alternative, I can't help but feel like a prize was snatched away. It's like the non-cartoony shaders presented early on represent this game's visual potential, and the cartoony shader came along and stole that potential away. I would take solace in the fact that the cartoony shader was the winner by a wide margin, were it not for the strong likelihood that its late arrival as an option gave it unfair momentum. Miriam as seen in the demo also has much thicker black borders than in the ostensible gameplay image people were given which featured the cartoony shader. The essentially-absent black border look in said image is far more appealing than what we got in the demo. Solution is very simple: Leave all of the proposed shader templates in. Make the cartoony look the default, per the wishes of the community, but let players have access to the others. Maybe even make them something you can earn during the course of the game, the way some games tuck music tracks away as minor rewards for diligence.
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Post by WindsOfOsiris on Jul 6, 2016 2:47:13 GMT -6
Yea i think It would be super awesome if we could chose before the game starts. because i liked them all i think it would be a awesome feature to have
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fatihG
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Post by fatihG on Jul 6, 2016 2:56:25 GMT -6
Well, the thing with the 'shaders' is that it isnt just shaders. Analyzing the content from the demo I can tell that some of the effects in these 'shaders' have been baked into the textures for example. The watercolour overlay on the characters for example, it is in the original texture. it is not a shader effect. Thus having an option to switch between styles is not really an option. That being said, this is the nature of voting systems. If you were not there to cast your vote your voice wont be heard. And if you are part of the minority... well too bad. I didnt vote on it either, but personally I do not mind the stylized look. To me the stylized look give more character to the game. The 'traditional' shaders without the outlines and what not just look really bland to me. Could very well be any other 3d sidescrolling game. I agree on the colours of the boss though. I dont necessarily think it is an issue with saturation, but more something with the use of colours. (thats why I made a mod for it! Shameless plug: www.bloodstainedfanforums.com/thread/1148/bloodstained-modded ) It looks like they are using all 3 primary colours of this boss, making it feel like a childs toy. (Its pretty much pure blue, with green and red.)
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Post by Hertzila on Jul 6, 2016 3:14:02 GMT -6
Please no. While I see the appeal, the amount of potential extra work to make them all look great is too much. I'd rather they hear the feedback and modify the current one while sticking to it, rather than causing a delay to include all three.
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Jul 6, 2016 3:42:09 GMT -6
Yea i think It would be super awesome if we could chose before the game starts. because i liked them all i think it would be a awesome feature to have Awesome though highly unlikely I would think. Though I will admit there were some pretty impressive shaders on the roster. :p
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Post by Ghostpepper on Jul 6, 2016 4:57:03 GMT -6
I really like the look of these shaders and while it would be nice to have options I'd rather not cut back in other areas.
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ChucklesTheJester
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Post by ChucklesTheJester on Jul 6, 2016 5:17:11 GMT -6
We've been over this. Several times, in fact. It's not that simple.
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Post by Shax on Jul 6, 2016 5:59:07 GMT -6
We've been over this. Several times, in fact. It's not that simple. This. I'm all for sharing opinions and all that but I really, really, REALLY don't want to make more work for the programmers/developers. Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill right?
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 6, 2016 8:37:52 GMT -6
Yeah, one of the other threads we had on this with further insight: bloodstainedfanforums.com/thread/874/selectable-shadersThey may still come up with something for Miriam's character model itself that can be applied like what Astaroth mentioned, but for the game itself, it's most likely not a viable possibility.
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Post by dareka on Jul 6, 2016 10:32:00 GMT -6
It's been mentioned by others, but it bears repeating: switching shaders is simply not feasible.
Let me try and explain why, in layman's terms.
Graphics have two components: the 3D models and textures, which are done by the artists, and the shader programs, which are done by the programmers.
You'd be forgiven for thinking that these two components are independent, that 3D models and textures can be changed without tweaking the shaders and vice versa.With very simple graphics, this is indeed the case. However, with a relatively complex shader like the one in bloodstained, the 3D data (models and textures) and the shader program need to be intertwined. I know: I've done this. The shader program needs data baked into the models and the models are made under the assumption that you'll be using a specific shader.
What's more, while we normally just refer to a single shader, in reality there may be more than one shader program. There could be one for Miriam and another for the enemies, and another for the bosses, for example (that's not to say that this is the case - I'm just saying it would be an added difficulty if it were the case). There's definitely a different one for the background, for one.
What all this means is that from a technical standpoint, it would present a problem: in the best case scenario, the current 3D models and textures, which you can definitely not change, will look ugly under a different shader; in the worst case scenario, you could have outright graphical bugs and potentially even game-crashing bugs.
To fix this, you'd literally need to create at least one alternate version of all the 3D models and textures, one that plays nice with the other shaders.
And since that is the most expensive part of game development, it's not gonna happen.
So when IGA and Co. said there was no turning back once the shader was chosen, they meant it.
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Post by Motoko on Jul 6, 2016 11:20:21 GMT -6
Please no. While I see the appeal, the amount of potential extra work to make them all look great is too much. I'd rather they hear the feedback and modify the current one while sticking to it, rather than causing a delay to include all three. This is honestly the most realistic outlook to have, if you promise too many things it could end up half-baked.
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Post by BloodyTears92 on Jul 6, 2016 11:34:53 GMT -6
dareka's post really nails it. This is not a switch the devs can flip. Everything in the game has been crafted to blend and mesh with the visual style that has been chosen. The devs would have to create multiple versions of every single character, enemy, weapon, item, spell effect and environment to allow what you're asking for. When you get right down to it your asking them to make multiple versions of the game just because a handful of people don't like the stylized art style. Its unfeasible both from a financial perspective and a time perspective. The team is already hauling ass to get this game built from the ground up in under 3 years with this single shader and all it entails.
Now, the fact that a lot of people find the colors on the boss a bit much HAS been brought to the team, and things like color saturation can be tweaked and worked on at this point in development, but a total overhaul for shader-swapping is more or less impossible.
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Post by asterra on Jul 6, 2016 19:28:58 GMT -6
You'd be forgiven for thinking that these two components are independent, that 3D models and textures can be changed without tweaking the shaders and vice versa.With very simple graphics, this is indeed the case. However, with a relatively complex shader like the one in bloodstained, the 3D data (models and textures) and the shader program need to be intertwined. I know: I've done this. The shader program needs data baked into the models and the models are made under the assumption that you'll be using a specific shader. At the risk of pursuing something that's obviously figured to be a closed case by many, I offer my take. As previously stated, I feel the cartoony look of the shader is accomplished mostly through two of the shader's features: The cyan lightsourcing, and the "cel shading" black borders. (A third factor is the cel-like sharp delineation of shadowed surfaces.) Now, as far as the cyan lightsourcing effect goes, this is indeed baked into the textures in Bloodstained, but only as a separate layer. In fact I suspect it is simply the alpha layer of all the textures for a given mesh, rather than an entirely separate texture. Surfaces exhibit the cyan glow when presented obliquely to the camera, but only then: Tweaking, modifying, reducing or outright disabling this glow is thus a simple matter of changing one variable - the one which dictates the color and transparency (opacity) of this specific effect - and is no more "impossible" than it is for Miriam's boots to have cyan borders on the calves while she runs, yet cyan borders on the sides while she idles. (See above.) What's more, while we normally just refer to a single shader, in reality there may be more than one shader program. There could be one for Miriam and another for the enemies, and another for the bosses, for example (that's not to say that this is the case - I'm just saying it would be an added difficulty if it were the case). There's definitely a different one for the background, for one. I can confidently state that the shader in play is identical across Miriam and all NPCs in the demo, including the boss. As you say, the playfield graphics get a different treatment, and I'd suppose there will be many different ones for different scenarios. What all this means is that from a technical standpoint, it would present a problem: in the best case scenario, the current 3D models and textures, which you can definitely not change, will look ugly under a different shader I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if they choose to tone down the cyan glow on the boss, which often resolves as a ridiculous radioactive paint detail, it can only be an improvement. And the sad fact of the matter is that any other boss that's similarly large is almost certainly going to exhibit the same exact problem unless things are specifically tweaked to avoid it.Analyzing the content from the demo I can tell that some of the effects in these 'shaders' have been baked into the textures for example. The watercolour overlay on the characters for example, it is in the original texture. it is not a shader effect. Thus having an option to switch between styles is not really an option. The cyan effect is part of the texture, as you say, but it is not a "permanently on" part - its appearance depends on the angle of the polygons, and this in turn is dictated internally; the entire effect could be completely disabled if desired, without needing to modify any textures or meshes. To better illustrate what I mean, here is a shot of the boss's tentacle: These two images were taken about half a second apart. The cyan effect here is actually constantly flowing along the tentacles, yet nonetheless the only time you can see it at all is on surfaces which are within a certain range of perpendicular to the camera. Thus you see a lot of the effect with the tentacle pointed roughly at the camera (above), and it almost completely disappears, half a second later, with the tentacle having shifted 90 degrees (below).
With the cyan glow factor out of the way, it's time to talk more about the black borders. All this self-assured talk about baked textures doesn't really touch upon the border problem. I don't think I need to explain how the textures or the meshes, or indeed any other items that takes a major proportion of development time, have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not a given model is being rendered with arbitrary black edges on sharp and/or oblique angles. That can be disabled on a whim. Now, I point to the following image as evidence that at least reducing the effect can net a desirable result: On the left, the original image provided as a "character 3" specimen. On the right, what we got in the demo. (Crop, no scaling.) The borders on the left image are either absent or significantly reduced compared to the right image, and it makes for much cleaner and more appealing graphics, at least in my opinion. But the focus of the discussion is technically the boss, so let's study what makes the black borders uniquely problematic there. Really, nothing less than the fact that the black borders are at least twice as thick as even the already thick borders on Miriam. Depending on the situation, it can get far, far worse: Is this supposed to be the successor to Castlevania, or to Ōkami? Shrug. This needs to be toned down. A lot. (Side note: I'm pretty well convinced at this point that the low detail of the boss's mesh has been dictated by the foreknowledge of certain mandated ports.)
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Post by dareka on Jul 7, 2016 0:24:32 GMT -6
Correct me if I'm wrong, asterra , but I gather that what you're saying in your last post is different than what you said first. This was the initial argument: Solution is very simple: Leave all of the proposed shader templates in. Make the cartoony look the default, per the wishes of the community, but let players have access to the others.
The initial proposition is that the previous shaders should be left in. The argument against this is that, when the 3d data (textures, normals, etc.) is created with a specific shader in mind, it doesn't look good on other shaders. This is your latest argument (I paraphrase): You can just write a shader that is essentially the same as the current one, but ignores the watercolor textures, drops the cyan glow, and drops the outline, and the game would look better. Well, whether or not it would look better this way is ultimately a matter of opinion, but this is very different from leaving all of the proposed shader templates. The game might look better to you and those who share your opinion in this state, but, at the very least, it would not look the same as it did with the other two shader templates. For the game to look like it does in those other shaders, you would have to rework the textures and the normals, etc, which is why the dev team wanted to have this locked down before commencing mass production. That said, you could float it to the dev team as an option: let me turn the black outlines on and off, or at least reduce their thickness. I'm sure you know they're likely being done "the old fashioned way", i.e. by rendering the triangles facing away from the camera in black, having previously stretched the vertices in the direction of their normals; and this would of course mean that, while stretching them past a certain point is out of the question, shrinking the outline is very easy to do. So, as far as the outline goes, I'd say it does become a question of whether or not they want to listen to your suggestion, as opposed to whether or not they can.
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Post by asterra on Jul 7, 2016 0:57:56 GMT -6
This is your latest argument (I paraphrase): You can just write a shader that is essentially the same as the current one, but ignores the watercolor textures, drops the cyan glow, and drops the outline, and the game would look better. The shader in question affects "characters", hence its designation, "character 3". If you drop the cyan glow, the black borders, and the hard shadow delineation, the only thing left to do is tweak color balance and you have "character 1" in the bag (as long as the essentially unimportant normals of a cel shaded model don't actually prove a barrier, assuming they even have any). Perhaps the more convoluted shader considerations are more applicable in the case of "background 1" vs "background 3", but the only thing that seems to be irreversibly baked into the character assets they've produced so far is the unique texture layer on the boss which produces the rolling effect on the cyan glow. Since none of this affects the background and the background does not share any of the qualities which would make it look cartoony, I see no reason to rock that boat. So, as far as the outline goes, I'd say it does become a question of whether or not they want to listen to your suggestion, as opposed to whether or not they can. I actually feel that in this case, even if the black border item ends up being non-negotiable, that won't stop like-minded modders. A simple edit like that would probably be one of the first things out the door.
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Post by lordmaximos on Jul 7, 2016 6:56:37 GMT -6
The main reason why this "cartoonish" shader won is the over saturation of dark and gray styled games, I personally had enough of dark color in games and this is shaders are a breath of a fresh air for me, and this cartoonish style is not bad at all, like overwatch and team fortress 2, they have a cartoonish style, but that doesn't take anything from it, so this shader is the best in my opinion.
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Post by dareka on Jul 7, 2016 9:06:15 GMT -6
If you drop the cyan glow, the black borders, and the hard shadow delineation, the only thing left to do is tweak color balance and you have "character 1" in the bag (as long as the essentially unimportant normals of a cel shaded model don't actually prove a barrier, assuming they even have any). Well, they have normals. See: how they're doing the black outlines. It's likely they also need them for the cyan glow - otherwise, how would they know if the polygon is oblique to the camera or not? By calculating the normal in real time? Yes, it can be done, but it's a bit too computationally expensive for something you could just include in the model data. As for the rest of the shading, "the essentially unimportant normals of a cel shaded model", are exactly that: unimportant to the cell shader. Any shader with any kind of lambertian-like gradation component needs normals, and they're likely missing because the cell shader doesn't need them. The ones that are there are not adjusted to look good on a lambertian shader: they're there to stretch the vertices in the right direction, and to predict if a given triangle is facing the camera or not. This is assuming there are no other texture layers at work in the original shader templates, layers needed not to know whether the vertices are facing the light source or not (like the normal), but to "tweak" the color balance, as you say. But anyhow, I think we can agree there are a lot of assumptions here: we'll know more once modders have their hands on the finished product.
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Post by reltats on Jul 7, 2016 10:01:11 GMT -6
just throwing in my two cents;
I'd very much enjoy an option to turn off the cyan borders. But since I don't know how long that would take the development team and whether or not that would be as simple as "turning it off", I don't mind if I don't get the option in favor of spending the team and resources of the kickstarter stretch goals
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Post by fatihG on Jul 7, 2016 10:58:47 GMT -6
Actually the outline is part of the model.
What they are doing to get the effect is copy the model, invert the normals and move the vertices out. So basically the your are looking at the outline model from the inside out.
As for the 'backlight' effect, this is a shader effect. It is using something called 'Fresnel'. It is not tied to the outline model at all. This is why it only appears on steep angles from the camera, basically near the edges of the model. Now I am not sure of this, but I think that they are using a mask texture to mask the intensity out the fresnel effect in certain areas. For example the armpits don't seem to have this Fresnel effect so much. Basically areas that get occluded dont receive the effect so much. (in fact I think they are using an ambient occlusion texture to mask the effect.)
This cyan fresnel effect would be the easiest effect for the developers to remove. (pretty difficult for modders.) Modders will be able to remove the outline effect on the model pretty easily, heck I could do it if I wanted to, but I prefer the black outline tbh. That being said this could take a while for modders as they will have to edit all of the models in the game to remove the outline. Another option would be to modify the shader of the black outline, but again afaik modifying shaders is pretty difficult if you are modding.
The reason I prefer the outline, is that it makes the area around the character 'darker' thus making the character 'inside of the outline' stand out from the background more. It makes the character pop.
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Jul 7, 2016 11:18:02 GMT -6
Actually the outline is part of the model. What they are doing to get the effect is copy the model, invert the normals and move the vertices out. So basically the your are looking at the outline model from the inside out. As for the 'backlight' effect, this is a shader effect. It is using something called 'Fresnel'. It is not tied to the outline model at all. This is why it only appears on steep angles from the camera, basically near the edges of the model. Now I am not sure of this, but I think that they are using a mask texture to mask the intensity out the fresnel effect in certain areas. For example the armpits don't seem to have this Fresnel effect so much. Basically areas that get occluded dont receive the effect so much. (in fact I think they are using an ambient occlusion texture to mask the effect.) This cyan fresnel effect would be the easiest effect for the developers to remove. (pretty difficult for modders.) Modders will be able to remove the outline effect on the model pretty easily, heck I could do it if I wanted to, but I prefer the black outline tbh. That being said this could take a while for modders as they will have to edit all of the models in the game to remove the outline. Another option would be to modify the shader of the black outline, but again afaik modifying shaders is pretty difficult if you are modding. The reason I prefer the outline, is that it makes the area around the character 'darker' thus making the character 'inside of the outline' stand out from the background more. It makes the character pop. You go gurl. You learn dem n00bz. :p I think that the shading doesn't look like too much of a problem, I think we should all wait until closer to the release date when we see more to be worried about it.
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