salacavalini
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Post by salacavalini on Jun 29, 2016 14:02:29 GMT -6
This is just a minor worry for me, but one possible implication of them planning to include a procedurally generated castle mode to the game would be a certain level of compromise for the baseline assets used for the main game mode as well. It's an unavoidable truth that proc-genned levels in video games simply cannot afford to have as much unique detail per room/layout as a handcrafted level would, as this sort of level generation ends up pulling pieces out of a finite set of pre-crafted assets and stitching them together in viable patterns.
In an ideal world, the main game would simply use its own room layouts and assets so each room feels unique, and the assets used for the proc-genned mode would exist for that mode alone, but this might not be practical in terms of time investment and amount of work required.
I'm kind of bad at explaining what I mean with this, but I hope it's at least clear enough to give across the general reason why I'm a little worried about this. Games like Rogue Legacy unavoidably end up with the player recognizing each room on sight, so the "every castle is unique" effect fades after enough play. You stop thinking of it as a single solid castle and start anticipating which of the limited set of rooms you'll encounter next, and you'll have a plan in mind for how to navigate it, which kind of defeats the entire purpose. This still happens, although to a lesser degree, in games traditionally based around procedural generation such as Diablo II and the like. Some of these games have proc-genned "filler" rooms between static key rooms that always appear.
Disclaimer, it should be clear from reading my post that I'm not generally a fan of procedural generation for this sort of game. Heh.
On a sidenote, the staggered content release plan does include the possibility that they might just focus on a solid core game experience first, before focusing too much on the proc-genned mode. At least that's what I'm hoping for.
Thank you for your time and sorry for the incoherent ramble.
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LeoLeWolferoux
Wielder of Emptiness
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[TI0] ...an intellectual with no room for feelings...
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Jun 29, 2016 21:07:43 GMT -6
Yeah I don't think the roguelike dungeon will be a non-optional thing. It'll prolly be included with the staggered release dates
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Shax
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Post by Shax on Jun 30, 2016 5:27:22 GMT -6
I see your point.
Although, if there are enough assets then this feeling of "familiarity" might take longer to take over. If I'm not mistaken Iga said there were about 1,600 individual scenes in Bloodstained so I imagine they would be pulling assets and/or creating entirely new ones (if Rouge-like is released later, I don't think it will be). This might prolong this for a while.
No matter how many times you play a game, procedural generation or not, the game will get familiar at some point. There is no avoiding that.
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LeoLeWolferoux
Wielder of Emptiness
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[TI0] ...an intellectual with no room for feelings...
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Jun 30, 2016 13:06:19 GMT -6
I see your point. Although, if there are enough assets then this feeling of "familiarity" might take longer to take over. If I'm not mistaken Iga said there were about 1,600 individual scenes in Bloodstained so I imagine they would be pulling assets and/or creating entirely new ones (if Rouge-like is released later, I don't think it will be). This might prolong this for a while. No matter how many times you play a game, procedural generation or not, the game will get familiar at some point. There is no avoiding that. Whoa. That's deep, Shax. o.o |
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Post by Shax on Jun 30, 2016 17:03:12 GMT -6
I see your point. Although, if there are enough assets then this feeling of "familiarity" might take longer to take over. If I'm not mistaken Iga said there were about 1,600 individual scenes in Bloodstained so I imagine they would be pulling assets and/or creating entirely new ones (if Rouge-like is released later, I don't think it will be). This might prolong this for a while. No matter how many times you play a game, procedural generation or not, the game will get familiar at some point. There is no avoiding that. Whoa. That's deep, Shax. o.o Every dog has its day. |
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Post by crocodile on Jul 1, 2016 11:20:52 GMT -6
I haven't played a lot of games with procedurally created content but "assets will be downgraded to make them easier to randomize" seems like something that need to be proven rather than something to be accepted as empirically true. What games can you point to that specifically have downgraded assets or the developers outright said they had to do so in development to achieve their goals?
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Astaroth
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What a wonderful night to have a curse...
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Post by Astaroth on Jul 1, 2016 13:46:30 GMT -6
all roguelike actually does is assign each asset an id and through carefully crafted rng algorithms (crafted because truly 'random' roguelikes have a chance to trap you in the first room with no way out with the strongest boss of the game, so sanity checks are built in to make the game playable) piece together different ids until it reaches a stop command, depending on how detailed iga wants to get with this setup it could be anything from start room/area 2/area 15/area 7/boss to mixing and maching individual rooms, to the engine placing individual background items for each room, binding of isaac takes parts from all 3 levels (map skin for area, room layout and exits, then individual enemy and item placement), rogue legacy takes more of a room by room approach i believe, and no mans sky takes the individual asset approach to generation
so theres a potential for a lot or a little randomization, we just need to wait and see which levels of approach iga and the team feels will provide the most bang without getting into the realm of diminishing returns
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WindsOfOsiris
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[TI0] We are in contradiction... However our feelings for the world are no different. How odd.
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Post by WindsOfOsiris on Jul 1, 2016 20:41:10 GMT -6
I do see the points being made, but regardless i cant wait to see the enormity of the castle and the rouge mode. im a diablo 2 & 3 fan and i was wondering to my self the other day, if they do the random gen. maps i wonder if they ever thought about making gear/weapons/armor..etc also RNG example: short short (common weapon:white) its att would roll between 1-4 and heck why not add a chance for epic and set a lower drop rate with the att 5-7 and a chance for a element binded to it. i think that would add so much replay value to the game. striving for better gear that would be really cool to see. { this is my first post ever i hope im putting it where it belongs }
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zredgemz
True Ancestor
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[TI1]But don't bring me back to life, okay? Gohan's more dependable than I ever was, anyway. ~ Goku
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Post by zredgemz on Jul 1, 2016 21:16:38 GMT -6
Diablo atleast from what i remember has randomly generated floors but since it follows a set of parameters it has a cap and at some point you will see every floor type possible and the same thing goes on with diablo 2.  The only really truly random thing is those games was the non set item drops stats, Rogue Legacy on the other hand is from what i played, truly random when it comes to castle generation. It does spawn a few rooms from what i recalled as unplayable but that was due to how random the placement of platform blocks really is, i have no idea how IGA plans to implement this but i hope every room can be passed without impassable objects. |
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Post by Ghostpepper on Jul 2, 2016 0:27:05 GMT -6
I'm not concerned with repeating assets given iga's history but what i'm hoping for in the roguelike is to be able to play in both a ng+ style and a progessive one. Like choose to keep all your items, relics, shards, ect... and playthrough a mode with few restrictions and maybe keep loot. Then have another option where it starts a clean slate and has parameters set for a regular random adventure. Maybe choose your own castle size too even if it's just a basic small, medium or large. Not likely but I can dream, ahh the amount of time I could lose on this.
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Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
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[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jul 2, 2016 2:56:32 GMT -6
I think the main problem here is the fear that the main game can lose it's sense of "something unique" when you put it on a roguelike mode. But i think i can dismiss some of those fears.
Let's take DOOM for instance. The old one, that old 1993 DOOM game.
DOOM had a limited set of graphics and parameters. All 36 maps from Ultimate Doom was made with those same parameters and graphics. Also, you have some building tools nowadays that let you built random levels with a set of options.
If you take a good random engine, like Oblidge, and change it's options, you can built 5 games and they will be different from one another. They use the same elements, graphics, assets but the stages will always look different. People are playing the same DOOM since 93 and still didn't got tired of doing new levels AND the original games are still a must to play even for today's standards.
And that happens because DOOM is a VERY WELL CRAFTED game, so much that 23 years later, there is a huge community that still plays it, still do levels with it, and still plays the original game and still finds it fun and rewarding.
Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night needs to be very well crafted. If it's gameplay elements turn out to be fun and rewarding and it's scenarios are forged on a gorgeous way, you can play as much rogue castles as you like. The main game will still be unique own it's on way.
We need to believe on IGA and the Dev team for that.
Also, as a last note: the game will not have 1600 unique scenarios. The game will have over 1600 rooms. This was an answer to a question made about the stretch goal of "Iga's Biggest Castle". Symphony of the night had 942 Rooms of size (each room is a block of the map), not couting the inverted castle. And they confirmed that Bloodstained will have more than 1600 rooms.
This led to some mixed opinions, with people saying that the game will be "smaller" than SOTN, because if you put the inverted castle together, it goes over 1800 rooms. But the Dev team said they wouldn't talk about a second castle or inverted castle or anything...So...Maybe Bloodstained will have another castle. But that is a matter for a thread i just made.
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