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Post by crocodile on Jun 29, 2016 2:50:08 GMT -6
It is important that players have at least a conceptual understanding on how to play your game. In modern times, with the death of the instruction manual, in-game tutorials are the way to go. However, tutorials, like all aspects of a production, can be done well or poorly. The E3 demo had text prompts that would pause the action and briefly tell you how to preform certain actions. Basically functional and not too intrusive though not that extensive and somewhat immersion breaking. However, given some of the comments of the staff (Iga in interviews, Mana in the E3 demo feedback thread, the most recent Kickstarter update thread) it's clear they want to do more and I can't blame them - even if most of us who backed the game are Metroidvania/Igavania fanatics, we aren't the only ones who will play the game and I do expect there to be new systems in play that even we may need a moment or two to get up to speed on. However, as I alluded to, there are many different ways to do a tutorial. The best, though maybe hardest to pull off, is teaching entirely through level design. It circumvents the overly "video-gamey" feel of having a disembodied voice or text prompts telling you what to do and maintains pacing in an excellent fashion. I've mention it before, and I'll mention it again and again because man does the following example nail it, but Shovel Knight is perhaps the ur-example of this within the past few years: From what the dev team have said, though I'd still love if they were able to do more level design focused tutorials, they want to do cut-scene tutorials. If not done carefully, these tend to be some of the more pacing and immersion detrimental types of tutorials. This has been done well and poorly in the industry but its really hard to know which kind you are going to get before hand. To that end, the purpose of this topic is multifaced: - What are some examples of cutscene tutorials done well in gaming? What games did tutorials really well in general? What did you like about them? Do you think there are any lessons the Bloodstained dev team could take from them?
- Do you think there is another way to do the tutorials that is both better than cutscenes but easier than through level design (still the best)?
- What do you like to see in a tutorial to maximize effectiveness but minimize intrusiveness?
- What do you think are things that should be avoided to maximize effectiveness but minimize intrusiveness?
- What can be done to make them feel more world/narratively fitting and less immersion breaking (something teaching through level design excels at)
Previous Castlevanias haven't been much for tutorials. One exception that comes to mind, and I believe another poster had also mentioned, is Order of Ecclesia (see below starting about 6:30 minutes in):
Is this what Iga et al. have in mind for Bloodstained? I appreciate that they at least created a narrative context for why this tutorial makes sense in OoE - you are actually being taught by a teacher how to do things. With this in mind I had suggested in the E3 demo thread the following:
The narrative of Bloodstained basically goes Miriam starts the game after having woken up from a deep sleep right? Is it inconceivable that she wakes up, meets up with Johannes and then he offers her the option to do an OPTIONAL crash course of moves and techniques? "Hey Miriam you've just been asleep for a while and you may be both mentally and physically rusty. What to do some exercises before you head out?" Say yes and you do some tutorials; say no and you move on to Galleon Minerva. Simple, easy, people who need the tutorials get them and those who don't get to skip them wholesale. Win-win scenario no? A lot better than forced cutscenes or whatever. Even if the OoE example is what the dev team has in mind (which is only an assumption) there's no question even that can be improved upon (for example as I suggested above, the option to entirely skip the tutorial rather than having to mash through button presses if you are familiar already with the systems or if this isn't the first time you've played the game). This conversation was kind of ongoing in the E3 demo feedback thread but I thought it was important to split into its own topic to highlight the discussion and get a few more voices in. Even if you are not one to really use tutorials, they still have value (so plz no "I don't think there should be or I wish there weren't any tutorials at all"). What we can do is think of suggestions and ways to make them better. Bad tutorials, either because they don't tell you enough or they really get in the way of gameplay or whatever, are negative strikes against a game. Let's help to avoid that for this game (hopefully some of these concerns are already on their minds). |
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Post by jboogieg on Jun 29, 2016 7:36:07 GMT -6
Not everybody who is going to play Bloodstained has played a Metroidvania/Igavania before. This game will also have its own unique systems separate from previous Igavanias that could need, if not a thorough explanation, at least an introduction. The important thing is to not make sure such tutorials are not obnoxious or intrusive. Delivering it in a way that logically ties into the game narrative is also preferred (so it doesn't feel too "gamey"). The best way of course is to just do it through level design (see the Mega Man X and Shovel Knight examples I posted before). If you can't do that, then using Order of Ecclesia is a good example of it done decently well. The narrative of the story basically goes Miriam starts the game after having woken up from a deep sleep right? Is it inconceivable that she wakes up, meets up with Johannes and then he offers her the option to do an OPTIONAL crash course of moves and techniques? "Hey Miriam you've just been asleep for a while and you may be both mentally and physically rusty. What to do some exercises before you head out?" Say yes and you do some tutorials; say no and you move on to Galleon Minerva. Simple, easy, people who need the tutorials get them and those who don't get to skip them wholesale. Win-win scenario no? A lot better than forced cutscenes or whatever. I just don't see it as being an option though. It'd be nice to have a choice and I'd love to have that choice but it seems like it'll be cinematic cutscenes. Sure, not EVERYONE will have played an igavania but that's definitely the majority of this audience and you say it'll have its own systems but the systems are still very influenced by the systems we all know. It's just not that difficult to pick up and play and it never was. I just don't see it as necessary, I've seen more challenging games with less of a focus on tutorials lol. This isn't a knock at bloodstained I just think part of the appeal of these games is it's really pick up and play and being bogged down by cinematic tutorials seems pointless when it should either be optional or not needed. well, sure, it might not be hard to pick up and play. But I have seen in other places that people didn't know that you can free aim with the right stick for the flame shard. And another thing that came to mind: gaming is much much bigger now than its ever been. The chances are high that you might run into somebody who hasn't played these types of games before. If you think that's remotely capable of happening then that's why you'd need tutorials. Believe me, I'm not saying you're wrong in your opinion. I've seen Egoraptor's Sequelitis and his episode on Megaman is fantastic. I agree with all his points. On the flip side, though, show don't tell only works to a point. For everybody that groans at the site of a tutorial I'm sure there's another person that was grateful for it. As for whether it might be a choice: well, this is for feedback, no? Better to posit the question and find out if it could happen that way. |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 29, 2016 7:49:41 GMT -6
The possible positive returns of accessibility are greater than our own niche preference for lack of a feature, in this case. We should prioritize the game being received well. Yeah, her nap is a great narrative opportunity to do this. I would be for the button/input information being separate text from what the NPC says, though. Dan does have a point about it always feeling weird hearing a character talk about your controller.
I'm with the croc on that idea, so long as Johannes doesn't end up like Barlowe entirely lol ;p
I -want- him to be a good guy! A good guy with a horizontal whip attack...and crosses and holy water...maybe he puts on a headband...
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 29, 2016 8:16:57 GMT -6
Eh, I just have a different mindset. Expect more from the players and they will learn to think for themselves. Baby them and they never will. I mean I don't care what anyone says this is an extremely accessible game. Even if you didn't have cinematic tutorials you'd happen upon things like the directional fire technique in a short amount of time. An honestly? Give me the button prompts over characters talking about the movesets. At least I can click X and ignore it quickly, whereas with the cinematics it's now apart of the 'story'.
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 29, 2016 9:42:29 GMT -6
Tell me in this playthrough where they go out of their way to tell you how to do something? It didn't hurt that game why would it hurt this? Mighty no 9 was bound to get heat regardless of what it did due to an angry fan base that feels mislead. Don't throw times have changed as an answer. The answer is, it's not an impossible task to look up the controls in the game, it's not an impossible task to ...'google'. All it boils down to is laziness to me. I'm saying a common sense alternative... give us a turn off tutorial option, or make them completely skippable. I also said the button prompts popping up are infinitely better when compared to characters from the game world basically talking to the player and showing them how to perform actions which just feels unnatural and weird to me. Tutorials are in a lot of games but most of the time they're button prompts that you can turn off in the option menu, not cutscenes. If a person skips through the button prompts and because of that doesn't know how to perform an action that's their fault not the game makers. ( which would be the only reason why some people didn't know you can directionally move the fire shard) So the dev team shouldn't go out of the way for people who ignore directions specifically on the screen. Sorry if this post seemed harsh. I've been very against the dumbing down of games over the last few years and the hand holding in almost everything especially games that shouldn't require much hand holding at all. This is all out of love!  |
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Post by dareka on Jun 29, 2016 11:00:31 GMT -6
This, that they taught through design rather than tutorials, was one of my favorite things about 8 - 16 bit Nintendo Games, an art they've lost since jumping to 3D. Like many people, I hate the tutorials in modern Zelda games (though I have hope for Breath of the Wild). There is a reason for this, though, and it's that games have become far more complicated, and developers were at a loss as to what to do. One of the things that allows Shovel Knight to use level-based teaching is precisely the fact that the basic mechanics are so simple. Yes, they have a lot of depth, but that's precisely where the genius of it lies. Using a shovel as a weapon was particularly clever: we know shovels are used for digging, but they also look like weapons, and during the downward thrust the shovel looks like a pogo stick, so the aesthetic itself supports the game mechanics. With Bloodstained, though, because it has so many mechanics, doing gameplay-based teaching might require more linearity on the Galleon than they've built into it. If you go back and add a stage previous to it, you'll actually add more that the player has to go through before reaching the castle, which is actually what you want to get started on right away. So I think that the suggestion crocodile made, to skip the tutorial if you want to ( "Miriam, do you remember how to use shards? >YES NO " ), is a good one. Also, for a good reference on how to do gameplay-based teaching in Metroidvanias, see the original Metroid. Developers definitely lost some of their skill when they were given the option to include loads of characters and text into their games. |
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Post by jboogieg on Jun 29, 2016 12:07:25 GMT -6
Tell me in this playthrough where they go out of their way to tell you how to do something? It didn't hurt that game why would it hurt this? Mighty no 9 was bound to get heat regardless of what it did due to an angry fan base that feels mislead. Don't throw times have changed as an answer. The answer is, it's not an impossible task to look up the controls in the game, it's not an impossible task to ...'google'. All it boils down to is laziness to me. I'm saying a common sense alternative... give us a turn off tutorial option, or make them completely skippable. I also said the button prompts popping up are infinitely better when compared to characters from the game world basically talking to the player and showing them how to perform actions which just feels unnatural and weird to me. Tutorials are in a lot of games but most of the time they're button prompts that you can turn off in the option menu, not cutscenes. If a person skips through the button prompts and because of that doesn't know how to perform an action that's their fault not the game makers. ( which would be the only reason why some people didn't know you can directionally move the fire shard) So the dev team shouldn't go out of the way for people who ignore directions specifically on the screen. Sorry if this post seemed harsh. I've been very against the dumbing down of games over the last few years and the hand holding in almost everything especially games that shouldn't require much hand holding at all. This is all out of love! Okay, I want to stop you for a moment. You say it's not hard to look up the controls but let's compare some things. Previously, if you wanted to see controls you had the manual that was in the game box. Bam, it's right there in your face and that was true for all systems and was very little effort to get to. Heck you could even read it *while* you were playing! Now, there's digital manuals. But how to access them is different on every system. I find it easiest on the 3ds but it's not very intuitive. And, I'm sorry, but times *have* changed. They changed when manuals stopped being relevant. It's not impossible to have people "google" directions but it disengages people from the game and once you do that a portion of people just aren't going to bother. Like I said before, whether this is a good or bad thing will come down to personal opinion. I don't mind them and they don't mess with my enjoyment. And I don't think it's dumbing down games because if they did then things like Bloodborne wouldn't exist and that game *does* have a tutorial. Eventually. After you die the first time. :V I do believe that you say all those out of love. But like I mentioned before it all comes down to who you're aiming at. If you're a game like Dark Souls 3 where you know what you're getting into then, I agree that you just throw a person in and let them get good. But any game that's starting out that wants to land as many people as possible is going to at least have to teach basics in the beginning. That's why I say having the option to turn them off is the way to go not to not have them at all. |
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Post by gracidia on Jun 29, 2016 12:13:06 GMT -6
If a person skips through the button prompts and because of that doesn't know how to perform an action that's their fault not the game makers. ( which would be the only reason why some people didn't know you can directionally move the fire shard) So the dev team shouldn't go out of the way for people who ignore directions specifically on the screen. Sorry if this post seemed harsh. I've been very against the dumbing down of games over the last few years and the hand holding in almost everything especially games that shouldn't require much hand holding at all. This is all out of love! I'll admit that some people are at fault for not reading the instructions properly, but saying that the devs shouldn't go out of their way to help those players (who, you know, still purchased/backed the game just like you and I) reeks of elitism. I haven't seen a business succeed by alienating a portion of a customer base, ever. Not everyone is as intelligent as you are on the great matter of vidya gaming. No matter how simple the matter may appear to you, maybe stop and consider that there are also people who aren't you. Yes, games over the years have become easier and more user friendly (or dumbed down as you would call it), to the point where it becomes a hand holding (and frustrating) experience and there should be change against it. Keep in mind though, providing key information on game mechanics isn't hand holding, it's necessary in order for players to experience the game as developers intended. Asking the developers to ignore reasonable needs of a part of the customer base (no matter how minuscule) screams obnoxious. No matter how you sugar coat it. Also, alienating new (and possibly dumb) players really doesn't help any with future ventures for this project. I'm sure nobody really wants to see this game being labeled as a repackaged Castlevania designed to appeal to only the most hardcore fans from the 90's. Hopefully this isn't what IGA had planned either. |
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 29, 2016 12:27:05 GMT -6
If a person skips through the button prompts and because of that doesn't know how to perform an action that's their fault not the game makers. ( which would be the only reason why some people didn't know you can directionally move the fire shard) So the dev team shouldn't go out of the way for people who ignore directions specifically on the screen. Sorry if this post seemed harsh. I've been very against the dumbing down of games over the last few years and the hand holding in almost everything especially games that shouldn't require much hand holding at all. This is all out of love! I'll admit that some people are at fault for not reading the instructions properly, but saying that the devs shouldn't go out of their way to help those players (who, you know, still purchased/backed the game just like you and I) reeks of elitism. I haven't seen a business succeed by alienating a portion of a customer base, ever. Not everyone is as intelligent as you are on the great matter of vidya gaming. No matter how simple the matter may appear to you, maybe stop and consider that there are also people who aren't you. Yes, games over the years have become easier and more user friendly (or dumbed down as you would call it), to the point where it becomes a hand holding (and frustrating) experience and there should be change against it. Keep in mind though, providing key information on game mechanics isn't hand holding, it's necessary in order for players to experience the game as developers intended. Asking the developers to ignore reasonable needs of a part of the customer base (no matter how minuscule) screams obnoxious. No matter how you sugar coat it. Also, alienating new (possibly dumb) players really doesn't help the future of this game. It's not elitism. They're catering to people who legit didn't READ when button prompts showed up. The thing about stuff like this is if a critic were to write a bad review about this game because it didn't explain how to do things you could easily point out ... "yes they did their were button prompts you just didn't read'. It's an invalid criticism, so adding even more intrusive instructions just to cater to people who don't spend any time to check what prompts say only to complain they don't know what to do seems weird to me. It's just common sense to me not elitism. Also there's plenty of games that are highly regarded that don't spend cinematics on tutorials. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a tutorial, I'm just saying it seems a bit much to have cinema scenes for them. Just do pop ups like in the demo that you can turn on and off. Maybe show the analog stick wiggling to imply it's directional. There's more ways to do this without a character telling me in the game. |
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Post by salacavalini on Jun 29, 2016 12:39:48 GMT -6
Just give us the option to skip the tutorial and it should be all good.
Or maybe a toggle between "Cinematic," "Pop-Up," and "Off."
Personally, I've never been a fan of in-universe tutorials; characters talking about buttons and the like feels immersion-breaking. But I also understand that every game is going to have people new to its genre picking it up, so a strong tutorial is important.
I think options are the key here, so new players can get their information while those familiar with these sorts of games can get straight to the action and the actual story without having their hand held through stuff they can figure out on their own.
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Post by Zechs on Jun 29, 2016 12:46:12 GMT -6
Something like Demon's/Dark Souls. Wisps that are around in an area just as dangerous as any other part of the game. That won't trigger unless you walk to it and acknowledge it.
Then let's you practice with a few baddies here and there. And a boss. To wrap it up into a nice little package.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 29, 2016 12:52:31 GMT -6
I moved the discussion on tutorial preferences from the E3 demo feedback thread to here so as to not make things difficult or more confusing for the staff counting opinions. Everyone's overall feedback/initial given opinion on it will stay there, though.
Unfortunately, as a consequence, seems I can't move crocodile 's OP back to the top. If he would rather, I can see about deleting the posts previous and archive those members' input in a post of my own. Carry on!
edit: For now, edited in a short intro telling folks that the OP is a bit further down. Might suffice. Don't bite meee |
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Post by gracidia on Jun 29, 2016 12:55:47 GMT -6
I'll admit that some people are at fault for not reading the instructions properly, but saying that the devs shouldn't go out of their way to help those players (who, you know, still purchased/backed the game just like you and I) reeks of elitism. I haven't seen a business succeed by alienating a portion of a customer base, ever. Not everyone is as intelligent as you are on the great matter of vidya gaming. No matter how simple the matter may appear to you, maybe stop and consider that there are also people who aren't you. Yes, games over the years have become easier and more user friendly (or dumbed down as you would call it), to the point where it becomes a hand holding (and frustrating) experience and there should be change against it. Keep in mind though, providing key information on game mechanics isn't hand holding, it's necessary in order for players to experience the game as developers intended. Asking the developers to ignore reasonable needs of a part of the customer base (no matter how minuscule) screams obnoxious. No matter how you sugar coat it. Also, alienating new (possibly dumb) players really doesn't help the future of this game. It's not elitism. They're catering to people who legit didn't READ when button prompts showed up. The thing about stuff like this is if a critic were to write a bad review about this game because it didn't explain how to do things you could easily point out ... "yes they did their were button prompts you just didn't read'. It's an invalid criticism, so adding even more intrusive instructions just to cater to people who don't spend any time to check what prompts say only to complain they don't know what to do seems weird to me. It's just common sense to me not elitism. Also there's plenty of games that are highly regarded that don't spend cinematics on tutorials. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a tutorial, I'm just saying it seems a bit much to have cinema scenes for them. Just do pop ups like in the demo that you can turn on and off. Maybe show the analog stick wiggling to imply it's directional. There's more ways to do this without a character telling me in the game. I'm not asking for cinematic tutorials either, but saying that people who missed the control guide prompt pretty much deserve it (because I'm sure you can 100% guarantee to me that the people who missed prompts was because they didn't actually read) and no damns should be given sounds pretty much like elitism to me. Look, you might have a PhD in how2vidya for all I know or care, and your vidya gaem common sense might be a notch (or twenty) above mine. That's still not the point. My point is that people shouldn't be penalized just because they missed a prompt (or because it bruises your ego, correct me if I'm wrong). This is not the 1990s, games evolved while you weren't looking, being penalized in obnoxious ways isn't cool anymore. tl;dr: your common sense ≠ other people's common senses. obnoxious penalties like what you're suggesting is dumb and is a dumb design decision, and even people who don't read needs to be catered to even if it annoys you because they're what you call customers. |
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 29, 2016 12:58:04 GMT -6
I think it all depends on what the story chooses to focus on, I never liked how the DS games had a strong focus on making the story out of the mechanics...the souls...the glyphs... I think the focus of the plot should be the alchemists, the orphans, and the world moving away from religion that brings on the demons. It's just more interesting to FOCUS on those elements. She's cursed we get that but SOTN didn't spend time focusing on the fact that Alucard has vampire abilities and their purpose in the games story that can bring an end to dracula, instead it just focused on the actual plot that mattered. ( why Richter has vanished, him being in control of the castle). Making the abilities a focus point in the story makes the story feel gimmicky. From our good friend Arikado:
You have the power to absorb the abilities of the monsters you kill.Stuff like this is too gamey for my elitist ways Instead of saying, " there's something dark within you, there's a connection between you and the demons that live at this castle. " Letting you realize oh because of that connection the gameplay allows me to do this when a button prompt pops up. Then focus the story more on the important details without smacking you on the face with souls. That's just me though, I'm very anti-gamey feeling games. I like to be pulled into the game's atmosphere not taken out. |
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Post by crocodile on Jun 29, 2016 13:30:11 GMT -6
purifyweirdshard : I feel the OP of a thread usually sets the tone and concept so having it buried in the middle of the topic (even with an note) is kind of awkward and makes for funky reading. I think I'd prefer the OP at the top with a post that archives those first 4 posts so others can see them (like say "these are the posts that prompted this thread"). I'll leave that up to you what you think is best but that would be my preference. CastleDan : You really need to think more like a game designer. Yes, some people will always be dumb you can't lead the ignorant to water so to speak. However, the onus is on the game designer to make sure the game mechanics are explained in such a way as to be understanding and accommodating to as much of the intended audience as possible. If Iga is watching people play his game and seeing they are having trouble, it means he needs to do a better job conveying this information. Our "job" here is to discuss ways in which we think are the best way to do that and maybe pass those suggestions on to the dev team. It's still early so stuff like that can matter.Tutorials that hold your hand too much, break immersion badly, are unskippable, etc. are actively bad - there are ways to mess up tutorials. But having nothing or insufficient tutorials is not the answer either. I will also saying tying your game mechanics into your narrative actually makes things less "gamey" as they are better justified and explained - they arent just random things you can do just 'cause. If you're a game has a narrative, this is important. The Soul system of the Sorrow games was integral to the entire plot and why Soma was who he was and why he was where he was. You can't not address that. Same thing with Miriam's shard system. The fact that you had moves and techniques that were never introduced to you in SOTN (I always thought it was hilarious you had access to the spells from the start of the game but you never knew it and they were easy as hell to completely miss if you didn't scan the Librarian's menu carefully) is a bug not a feature. That's not exploration, that randomly stumbling upon something by per accident because otherwise you never have any clue to look for stuff. SOTN is a great game but its also almost 20 years old. We should never forget get the successes that classic games have had and the lessons they have thought us but just because a game is a classic doesn't mean that everything it did is correct or that nothing can be improved upon.
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Post by Saint Germain on Jun 29, 2016 13:37:26 GMT -6
Personally don't like tutorials.
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 29, 2016 13:39:55 GMT -6
purifyweirdshard : I feel the OP of a thread usually sets the tone and concept so having it buried in the middle of the topic (even with an note) is kind of awkward and makes for funky reading. I think I'd prefer the OP at the top with a post that archives those first 4 posts so others can see them (like say "these are the posts that prompted this thread"). I'll leave that up to you what you think is best but that would be my preference. CastleDan : You really need to think more like a game designer. Yes, some people will always be dumb you can't lead the ignorant to water so to speak. However, the onus is on the game designer to make sure the game mechanics are explained in such a way as to be understanding and accommodating to as much of the intended audience as possible. If Iga is watching people play his game and seeing they are having trouble, it means he needs to do a better job conveying this information. Our "job" here is to discuss ways in which we think are the best way to do that and maybe pass those suggestions on to the dev team. It's still early so stuff like that can matter.Tutorials that hold your hand too much, break immersion badly, are unskippable, etc. are actively bad - there are ways to mess up tutorials. But having nothing or insufficient tutorials is not the answer either. I will also saying tying your game mechanics into your narrative actually makes things less "gamey" as they are better justified and explained - they arent just random things you can do just 'cause. If you're a game has a narrative, this is important. The Soul system of the Sorrow games was integral to the entire plot and why Soma was who he was and why he was where he was. You can't not address that. Same thing with Miriam's shard system. The fact that you had moves and techniques that were never introduced to you in SOTN (I always thought it was hilarious you had access to the spells from the start of the game but you never knew it and they were easy as hell to completely miss if you didn't scan the Librarian's menu carefully) is a bug not a feature. That's not exploration, that randomly stumbling upon something by per accident because otherwise you never have any clue to look for stuff. SOTN is a great game but its also almost 20 years old. We should never forget get the successes that classic games have had and the lessons they have thought us but just because a game is a classic doesn't mean that everything it did is correct or that nothing can be improved upon. I don't really agree though. As I said, SOTN didn't even NEED tutorials and it's still arguably regarded whether you agree or not as the best in the franchise by majority of the fans. Now, to your point about tying it to the plot makes it make more sense. My point is they don't need to. Did they need to tie Alucard's abilities to the plot? It was just obvious that his abilities were because he was a vampire, you never needed to say it with dialogue it's just easily assumed. It's an old game sure, but the discovery of things you didn't know you could do was part of the fun. The mystery of what more is there was great. Miriam is oddly enough in a similar boat, she's a half being of sorts not fully cursed but she's got a cursed running through her veins. They don't need dialogue from characters saying, you have the abilities to absorb Magi-Crystals and use their abilities. Whether you say giving it story importance helps or not, just saying those words sound incredibly videogamey. We know she's cursed, we will clearly know she's connected to the demons, so let it be assumed and focus the story on not absorbing magi-crystals but the curse/Gebel/Alchemists ALL THE COOLER stuff that make for better cutscenes. Either way, I showed an example above. You can write the dialogue in a way that doesn't scream videogame but still get the message across about the souls/glyphs or what have you. I want to clarify, I never said they need to do away with tutorials, I said having to turn them off would be nice or have them be completely skippable but because they will be in cutscenes that's where the problem lies. We're now skipping cutscenes and not tutorial button prompts. |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 29, 2016 13:58:19 GMT -6
I'll do that later tonight when I get home, croc. No problem. I agree anyway, it will just take a bit more time to do.
Dan, SotN is definitely widely regarded as the best, no doubt.
I think though that the average player now has a very short attention span. Now, a player is more likely to ask online how to do something or watch a Youtube video than pay any attention to instruction materials, printed or otherwise. Had NES games like The Legend of Zelda and Castlevania 2 been released in 2016, the internet would have flooded with negative opinions, posts like "where do I go now???", "how was I supposed to figure that out? Game's trash, arbitrary nonsense". Sometimes a game promotes this almost as a feature, a tie-in with its difficulty and overall obscurity of the game's systems, and that's when a game like Dark Souls is successful.
Igavania games are light adventure, exploration and collection games with a decent challenge. I think the goal of the team is to bring these more to the forefront again, to be appreciated by more people rather than to be cherished by the same few that are ever-diminishing. If I have to swallow the little pill of a tutorial here and there, I'd say it's worth it. If we want a future for these games, we do need the future to want them.
It can be done quite tastefully and not break the flow of the game. Some great examples and ideas have been posted up. I'd be down with optional/toggles myself, too, of course.
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 29, 2016 14:00:12 GMT -6
I'll do that later tonight when I get home, croc. No problem. I agree anyway, it will just take a bit more time to do. Dan, SotN is definitely widely regarded as the best, no doubt. I think though that the average player now has a very short attention span. Now, a player is more likely to ask online how to do something or watch a Youtube video than pay any attention to instruction materials, printed or otherwise. Had NES games like The Legend of Zelda and Castlevania 2 been released in 2016, the internet would have flooded with negative opinions, posts like "where do I go now???", "how was I supposed to figure that out? Game's trash, arbitrary nonsense". Sometimes a game promotes this almost as a feature, a tie-in with its difficulty and overall obscurity of the game's systems, and that's when a game like Dark Souls is successful. Igavania games are light adventure, exploration and collection games with a decent challenge. I think the goal of the team is to bring these more to the forefront again, to be appreciated by more people rather than to be cherished by the same few that are ever-diminishing. If I have to swallow the little pill of a tutorial here and there, I'd say it's worth it. If we want a future for these games, we do need the future to want them. It can be done quite tastefully and not break the flow of the game. Some great examples and ideas have been posted up. I'd be down with optional/toggles myself, too, of course. Eh, to each their own. It won't ruin anything for me it's just definitely not preferred. There's better ways to go about it then cutscenes. I agree that nowadays people have a short attention span but maybe it's time we make them work a bit harder and change that habit for the better rather than enable them and make it worse  |
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Post by jboogieg on Jun 29, 2016 14:00:56 GMT -6
purifyweirdshard : I feel the OP of a thread usually sets the tone and concept so having it buried in the middle of the topic (even with an note) is kind of awkward and makes for funky reading. I think I'd prefer the OP at the top with a post that archives those first 4 posts so others can see them (like say "these are the posts that prompted this thread"). I'll leave that up to you what you think is best but that would be my preference. CastleDan : You really need to think more like a game designer. Yes, some people will always be dumb you can't lead the ignorant to water so to speak. However, the onus is on the game designer to make sure the game mechanics are explained in such a way as to be understanding and accommodating to as much of the intended audience as possible. If Iga is watching people play his game and seeing they are having trouble, it means he needs to do a better job conveying this information. Our "job" here is to discuss ways in which we think are the best way to do that and maybe pass those suggestions on to the dev team. It's still early so stuff like that can matter.Tutorials that hold your hand too much, break immersion badly, are unskippable, etc. are actively bad - there are ways to mess up tutorials. But having nothing or insufficient tutorials is not the answer either. I will also saying tying your game mechanics into your narrative actually makes things less "gamey" as they are better justified and explained - they arent just random things you can do just 'cause. If you're a game has a narrative, this is important. The Soul system of the Sorrow games was integral to the entire plot and why Soma was who he was and why he was where he was. You can't not address that. Same thing with Miriam's shard system. The fact that you had moves and techniques that were never introduced to you in SOTN (I always thought it was hilarious you had access to the spells from the start of the game but you never knew it and they were easy as hell to completely miss if you didn't scan the Librarian's menu carefully) is a bug not a feature. That's not exploration, that randomly stumbling upon something by per accident because otherwise you never have any clue to look for stuff. SOTN is a great game but its also almost 20 years old. We should never forget get the successes that classic games have had and the lessons they have thought us but just because a game is a classic doesn't mean that everything it did is correct or that nothing can be improved upon. I don't really agree though. As I said, SOTN didn't even NEED tutorials and it's still arguably regarded whether you agree or not as the best in the franchise by majority of the fans. Now, to your point about tying it to the plot makes it make more sense. My point is they don't need to. Did they need to tie Alucard's abilities to the plot? It was just obvious that his abilities were because he was a vampire, you never needed to say it with dialogue it's just easily assumed. It's an old game sure, but the discovery of things you didn't know you could do was part of the fun. The mystery of what more is there was great. Miriam is oddly enough in a similar boat, she's a half being of sorts not fully cursed but she's got a cursed running through her veins. They don't need dialogue from characters saying, you have the abilities to absorb Magi-Crystals and use their abilities. Whether you say giving it story importance helps or not, just saying those words sound incredibly videogamey. We know she's cursed, we will clearly know she's connected to the demons, so let it be assumed and focus the story on not absorbing magi-crystals but the curse/Gebel/Alchemists ALL THE COOLER stuff that make for better cutscenes. Either way, I showed an example above. You can write the dialogue in a way that doesn't scream videogame but still get the message across about the souls/glyphs or what have you. I want to clarify, I never said they need to do away with tutorials, I said having to turn them off would be nice or have them be completely skippable but because they will be in cutscenes that's where the problem lies. We're now skipping cutscenes and not tutorial button prompts. SotN was also still during a time when manuals existed. |
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The narrative of Bloodstained basically goes Miriam starts the game after having woken up from a deep sleep right? Is it inconceivable that she wakes up, meets up with Johannes and then he offers her the option to do an OPTIONAL crash course of moves and techniques? "Hey Miriam you've just been asleep for a while and you may be both mentally and physically rusty. What to do some exercises before you head out?" Say yes and you do some tutorials; say no and you move on to Galleon Minerva. Simple, easy, people who need the tutorials get them and those who don't get to skip them wholesale. Win-win scenario no? A lot better than forced cutscenes or whatever.
yey