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Post by Galamoth on Apr 11, 2016 10:46:14 GMT -6
Since the release of Symphony of the Night, many subsequent games in the "Igavania" (Metroidvania) genre of Castlevania games have featured a certain aspect of RPG-gameplay: "Elements" or "Affinities" (in some cases called "Attributes", like in Order of Ecclesia).
Specifically, I'm referring to the various types of damage that can be utilized by both player-characters and enemies: Some are "Physical" (mostly related to damage from weapons that characters can wield), many others are usually "Elemental" (related to traditional RPG Magic-elements and sometimes to the Four/Five Classical Elements from different cultures), while others are the "Status Ailments" (debuffs/detriments with different effects depending on the individual game). ^ Many of these Attributes act not only as special modifiers to attacks, but are also part of a character's/enemies' "resistances" and "weaknesses" (including if one can "absorb" the specific type of damage, healing them in the process).
I'll start with listing all of the different Attributes from Castlevania's "Igavania" games below, and specifically which game they are introduced in as separate damage types. _____ List of Attributes/Affinities throughout the series.
Physical Attributes
HIT - Symphony of the Night (Punching/kicking, hammer weapons, and blunt weapons in general; also called "Bash", "Blunt", and "Strike" in later games)
SLASH - Symphony of the Night (Most, if not all, weapons with sharp edges; swords and most other bladed weapons; called "CUT" in SotN)
PIERCE - Dawn of Sorrow (Exclusive to DoS; Any bladed weapon with emphasis on sharp points/tips and thrusting motions, such as rapiers and spears, etc.)
WHIP - Portrait of Ruin (Before PoR, Whips often dealt "neutral" or "Blunt" damage. Used for flogging or beating, the lashing effect is akin to a flail.)
Elemental Attributes
FIRE - Symphony of the Night (Usually, this element is relatively effective against undead, but most effective against underwater/ice-themed as well as plant-like enemies.)
ICE - Symphony of the Night (Sometimes used to freeze enemies solid in certain later games; usually effective against both plant-like enemies & those that generate flame.)
LIGHTNING - Symphony of the Night (Especially effective against "Armor" enemies in many games, and usually hits twice...oddly not as effective against plant-like enemies.)
WATER - Symphony of the Night (Called "H2O" in SotN, and separate from "ICE"...but not too often utilized. In later games, most "water"-based attacks are classified as Ice-Element.)
PLANT - Circle of the Moon (Exclusive to CotM, so far...In other games, plant-themed weapons/abilities usually dealt "Hit" damage, save for the "Rose Stem Whip" in PoR.)
EARTH - Circle of the Moon (Also found in Curse of Darkness. In other games, any rock or earth-themed ability usually dealt "Hit" damage.)
WIND - Circle of the Moon (Also in both Harmony of Dissonance and Curse of Darkness. In other games, high-speed wind attacks usually dealt "Slash" damage instead.)
LIGHT - Symphony of the Night (Called "HOLY" in SotN, CotM, & Aria of Sorrow. Highly effective against most Demon & Undead-type enemies.)
DARK - Symphony of the Night (In almost every game, but relatively rare to obtain an ability/weapon which utilizes it. Usually effective against certain "angelic" enemies and Heroes, depending on the game.)
Status Ailments
POISON - Symphony of the Night (Depending on the game; you either gradually lose HP, or your stats are temporarily reduced...or both.)
STONE - Symphony of the Night (Called "Petrify" in many later games, consistently retaining the same effect.)
CURSE - Symphony of the Night (Depending on the game; you either gradually lose MP, can't attack, movement is slowed [for enemies]...or a combination of two of these.)
PARALYSIS - Lament of Innocence (Also in Curse of Darkness. Similar to "Petrify", but you can't escape for a short time.)
SLOW - Circle of the Moon (Forced to walk at half the normal speed, can't dash or double-jump, and can only jump half as high.) _____
I created this thread for discussion on the wide variety of damage types that we could see in Bloodstained.
Should all of these be included in Bloodstained to some extent? (Perhaps some could be combined or omitted?) Could there be many different weapons, spells/abilities, and enemies that are each affiliated with these various attributes?
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Post by JoJo on Apr 11, 2016 11:19:38 GMT -6
For me, I think it's better if we can "equip" the elemental attributes, this applies to the status ailments as well Like picking different crystals for the weapon to use the elements or status, and the higher the quality of the crystal, the stronger the skill will be (only the elementals and the status effect) The concept of this is like FF7 with the materia
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 11, 2016 11:24:09 GMT -6
I loved the curse status in SOTN. The funny grunt sound and the sword coming half way but stopping was a neat touch. I'm a very visual person, the more unique and cool little animations and sounds I get the happier I am with the game.
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Post by Kaius on Apr 11, 2016 11:41:29 GMT -6
Nice list, I think it will make Bloodstained richer to have such elements and attributes in the game but IGA probably thought about that already. What about adding some FF-like effects too ? Like ( for instance) : BLIND : Reduce melee-type monsters' physical accuracy by 25/50/75% according to Miriam's (magic's) level (?). TROUBLE / CONFUSION : Reduce magic-type monsters' magical accuracy by 25/50/75%. FREEZE : 25/50/75% of chance to freeze lower monsters (aka weak monsters). If they are froze, 25/50/75% of chance to break them into ice shards (aka instant death but no reward / item drop ?). To say simply, I think every good / powerful effects should have a counter-part so the game doesn't get too easy with time. Players would have to take choices : Brutal tactic (heavy figthing, doing / taking many damage), Smart tactic (with debuffs, doing / taking less damage). Fast XP / less farm or More farm / less XP ? I'm also thinking about Pokémon elements' chart. Fire > Ice > Fire > Plants. Water > Fire > Zombies, etc. As long as it's logic. I mean, how can leaf and water could break stones ?
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 11, 2016 11:43:00 GMT -6
My only concern with something like that is do you lose the originality of a sword made to be fire if you can just apply a fire element to any sword?
I mean finding special swords with special looks was part of the fun but taking away the special weapons like that and just making it, any of these weapons can do that seems less enjoyable to me. Apparently we're capable of doing that in this game I just hope they design special unique swords and weapons within the game itself in the form of item drops or finding them. A good amount of them, I don't want it just to be due to creation.
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Post by Kaius on Apr 11, 2016 11:50:41 GMT -6
My only concern with something like that is do you lose the originality of a sword made to be fire if you can just apply a fire element to any sword? I mean finding special swords with special looks was part of the fun but taking away the special weapons like that and just making it, any of these weapons can do that seems less enjoyable to me. Apparently we're capable of doing that in this game I just hope they design special unique swords and weapons within the game itself in the form of item drops or finding them. A good amount of them, I don't want it just to be due to creation. I got to agree with that. Then, what about having an alchemy / enchant feature that allow us to uncraft a weapon (unless this weapon is unique and you wouldn't have to do so, or have to use a special item / spell) to get its skin that you could put on every weapon you want ? Then putting an element / attribute on this weapon ? It would be cool to have more infos about IGA's plans on different crafting types but my opinion is that we can find a good balance for quite everything while avoiding to make the game too easy / boring (endless farm, no challenges...) / extremly hard / frustrating.
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Post by Galamoth on Apr 11, 2016 11:54:23 GMT -6
Nice list, I think it will make Bloodstained richer to have such elements and attributes in the game but IGA probably thought about that already. What about adding some FF-like effects too ? Like ( for instance) : BLIND : Reduce melee-type monsters' physical accuracy by 25/50/75% according to Miriam's (magic's) level (?). TROUBLE / CONFUSION : Reduce magic-type monsters' magical accuracy by 25/50/75%. FREEZE : 25/50/75% of chance to freeze lower monsters (aka weak monsters). If they are froze, 25/50/75% of chance to break them into ice shards (aka instant death but no reward / item drop ?). To say simply, I think every good / powerful effects should have a counter-part so the game doesn't get too easy with time. Players would have to take choices : Brutal tactic (heavy figthing, doing / taking many damage), Smart tactic (with debuffs, doing / taking less damage). Fast XP / less farm or More farm / less XP ? I'm also thinking about Pokémon elements' chart. Fire > Ice > Fire > Plants. Water > Fire > Zombies, etc. As long as it's logic. I mean, how can leaf and water could break stones ? Yeah, the variety of Attributes is likely something that IGA has already taken into consideration. I like your ideas for the "Blind" and "Trouble" status ailments! ("Freeze" is probably most likely to be connected to certain Ice weapons/abilities)
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Post by JoJo on Apr 11, 2016 12:05:59 GMT -6
My only concern with something like that is do you lose the originality of a sword made to be fire if you can just apply a fire element to any sword? I mean finding special swords with special looks was part of the fun but taking away the special weapons like that and just making it, any of these weapons can do that seems less enjoyable to me. Apparently we're capable of doing that in this game I just hope they design special unique swords and weapons within the game itself in the form of item drops or finding them. A good amount of them, I don't want it just to be due to creation. When you said it like that, I have been thinking of "element compatibility" Like what you said, the weapon made to be fire, that fire will never diminishes, while other weapons that use crystals for the elemental attributes, the crystal will deteriorate in time. With that, we can use the concept of element compatibility here, in which either taking the same element crystal or taking a different crystal to boost the special weapon itself, an example, the fire element have good compatibility with the wind, by combining them, you got like an extra boost for the special weapons, and this combinations will reflects on the particle effects in the game. I hope this is good enough
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Apr 11, 2016 12:19:09 GMT -6
What I can see happening with the weapon system is this, basically:
The unique look/animation weapons that we're used to from games like SotN, if not found outright as "pre-made" weapons, will be in the game at the very least by way of us making them. Say, you have a standard rapier, it may or may not have a multi-hit special attack. After a while, you gather up some drops like blessed silver, wolfsbane, a hunter's journal, etc. The journal itself may contain recipes, one of which being to use your silver/wolfsbane to upgrade your rapier to the Werebane. Different weapon appearance and attack/special attack animation wise.
So, I don't think we're looking at simple +atribute, +attack enhancements...doing just Lightning Rapier +3. Instead, there may be branching unique paths per weapon class depending on the items and combinations you have.
The same could be done to synthesize "legendary" katana that probably shouldn't be there. A Masanune, Murasame, Muramasa? Find a good base regular katana in the castle, gather up some legendary smithing items and documents of the know-how, and near end-game you should be able to have your own mythical sword. This could also be an alternative path to getting a late (or very hard to acquire) weapon earlier, and at the time you obtain the premade version, you can break it down for components that could perhaps improve the one you have or use for something completely different. It's overall a perfect opportunity to travel down a path of crafting a legendary relic in a time/place where it being there is best explained by some incredible alchemic work.
The "premade" weapons that are dropped or found could be possible with creation or completely unique, but I don't think there being item creation necessarily limits their number. So long as we're talking about named weapons with special attacks/animations, I think we're all good.
edit: Since this post is mostly about item crafting, I moved it to a more appropriate thread. We can discuss more crafting-centric thoughts there.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 11, 2016 12:41:53 GMT -6
What I can see happening with the weapon system is this, basically: The unique look/animation weapons that we're used to from games like SotN, if not found outright as "pre-made" weapons, will be in the game at the very least by way of us making them. Say, you have a standard rapier, it may or may not have a multi-hit special attack. After a while, you gather up some drops like blessed silver, wolfsbane, a hunter's journal, etc. The journal itself may contain recipes, one of which being to use your silver/wolfsbane to upgrade your rapier to the Werebane. Different weapon appearance and attack/special attack animation wise. So, I don't think we're looking at simple +atribute, +attack enhancements...doing just Lightning Rapier +3. Instead, there may be branching unique paths per weapon class depending on the items and combinations you have. The same could be done to synthesize "legendary" katana that probably shouldn't be there. A Masanune, Murasame, Muramasa? Find a good base regular katana in the castle, gather up some legendary smithing items and documents of the know-how, and near end-game you should be able to have your own mythical sword. This could also be an alternative path to getting a late (or very hard to acquire) weapon earlier, and at the time you obtain the premade version, you can break it down for components that could perhaps improve the one you have or use for something completely different. It's overall a perfect opportunity to travel down a path of crafting a legendary relic in a time/place where it being there is best explained by some incredible alchemic work. The "premade" weapons that are dropped or found could be possible with creation or completely unique, but I don't think there being item creation necessarily limits their number. So long as we're talking about named weapons with special attacks/animations, I think we're all good. I mean, I get that they could be made instead but I like the idea of hitting a secret wall and finding a unique weapon inside. I'd be kinda bummed if they killed off that aspect of the game. I would also be bummed if enemy specific drops are completely gone. I mean fighting a medusa to get a medusa type item is really cool and gives the enemies a certain level of interest to them, instead of them dropping a material or something. I think a mix of both systems would be for the best.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Apr 11, 2016 12:47:59 GMT -6
And I think there will be a mix. They know there's a lot of guys out there that want things to work as closely as possible to SotN. I moved that post to a more appropriate thread if people want to comment on crafting specific ideas.
Enemy-specific drops are definitely not gone. He has said that enemies will drop specific components, at least, so that Medusa head might drop a snake hair to make a Medusa shield with, or maybe you could use it to make a Medusa whip that petrifies small enemies instead. The uniqueness and enemy association of the weapons is still there.
Could they still drop whole equipment pieces? I don't see why not. And yay, I brought this back around to a status effect. I guess petirfication on enemies could work if it's limited to humanoid-sized things. Could be a weird thing to balance/animate.
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Post by lai on Apr 11, 2016 12:58:12 GMT -6
I kinda want the elements in this game to be treated the same way as OOE, hitting with the right element will let you deal 50% more damage and hitting with the wrong one deals half damage. When combined with OOE's corridor tall enemies it forced you to play smart as elements actually meant something. Unfortunately this only works when you have a system that allows for easy weapon/element switching like the glyph system.
Bloodstained seems to be going in the same direction as every other igavania. Elements are being tied to specific weapons with the main menu being the only way to switch between more than two. So OOE's system won't be a great fit unless there's some form of easy weapon switch like OOE's.
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Post by BalancedHydra on Apr 11, 2016 13:03:23 GMT -6
Nice list, I think it will make Bloodstained richer to have such elements and attributes in the game but IGA probably thought about that already. What about adding some FF-like effects too ? Like ( for instance) : BLIND : Reduce melee-type monsters' physical accuracy by 25/50/75% according to Miriam's (magic's) level (?). TROUBLE / CONFUSION : Reduce magic-type monsters' magical accuracy by 25/50/75%. FREEZE : 25/50/75% of chance to freeze lower monsters (aka weak monsters). If they are froze, 25/50/75% of chance to break them into ice shards (aka instant death but no reward / item drop ?). To say simply, I think every good / powerful effects should have a counter-part so the game doesn't get too easy with time. Players would have to take choices : Brutal tactic (heavy figthing, doing / taking many damage), Smart tactic (with debuffs, doing / taking less damage). Fast XP / less farm or More farm / less XP ? I'm also thinking about Pokémon elements' chart. Fire > Ice > Fire > Plants. Water > Fire > Zombies, etc. As long as it's logic. I mean, how can leaf and water could break stones ? I have alternatives. BLIND : Reduces Sight radius. Like Near-sighted in Rogue Dungeon but black rather then blurry. CONFUSION : Mess with the controller input. Up becomes Left. Down becomes right. etc... INSANITY : Lose control of Miriam and she does random actions.
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Post by Kaius on Apr 11, 2016 14:32:27 GMT -6
Nice list, I think it will make Bloodstained richer to have such elements and attributes in the game but IGA probably thought about that already. What about adding some FF-like effects too ? Like ( for instance) : BLIND : Reduce melee-type monsters' physical accuracy by 25/50/75% according to Miriam's (magic's) level (?). TROUBLE / CONFUSION : Reduce magic-type monsters' magical accuracy by 25/50/75%. FREEZE : 25/50/75% of chance to freeze lower monsters (aka weak monsters). If they are froze, 25/50/75% of chance to break them into ice shards (aka instant death but no reward / item drop ?). To say simply, I think every good / powerful effects should have a counter-part so the game doesn't get too easy with time. Players would have to take choices : Brutal tactic (heavy figthing, doing / taking many damage), Smart tactic (with debuffs, doing / taking less damage). Fast XP / less farm or More farm / less XP ? I'm also thinking about Pokémon elements' chart. Fire > Ice > Fire > Plants. Water > Fire > Zombies, etc. As long as it's logic. I mean, how can leaf and water could break stones ? I have alternatives. BLIND : Reduces Sight radius. Like Near-sighted in Rogue Dungeon but black rather then blurry. CONFUSION : Mess with the controller input. Up becomes Left. Down becomes right. etc... INSANITY : Lose control of Miriam and she does random actions. I like these too ! Ennemies should have their part of challenge. This version of confusion exists in Final Fantasy Explorers on 3DS. When you are confused, moves are reversed : Up becomes down, down = up, left = right and right = left. I do like Insanity too ! We can also imagine heavy ground monsters that make... for instance, GRAVITY : Deny Miriam from jumping for X (5/10/15 ?) seconds, making some combos impossible (particulary air ones) while the monster casting this is rightly strong on the ground, using EARTH element. There is so much possibilities, actually.
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Post by Galamoth on Apr 11, 2016 15:52:34 GMT -6
I have alternatives. BLIND : Reduces Sight radius. Like Near-sighted in Rogue Dungeon but black rather then blurry. CONFUSION : Mess with the controller input. Up becomes Left. Down becomes right. etc... INSANITY : Lose control of Miriam and she does random actions. I like these too ! Ennemies should have their part of challenge. This version of confusion exists in Final Fantasy Explorers on 3DS. When you are confused, moves are reversed : Up becomes down, down = up, left = right and right = left. I do like Insanity too ! We can also imagine heavy ground monsters that make... for instance, GRAVITY : Deny Miriam from jumping for X (5/10/15 ?) seconds, making some combos impossible (particulary air ones) while the monster casting this is rightly strong on the ground, using EARTH element. There is so much possibilities, actually. Ooh! "Gravity" as a Status Ailment!
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Post by BalancedHydra on Apr 11, 2016 18:05:39 GMT -6
I have alternatives. BLIND : Reduces Sight radius. Like Near-sighted in Rogue Dungeon but black rather then blurry. CONFUSION : Mess with the controller input. Up becomes Left. Down becomes right. etc... INSANITY : Lose control of Miriam and she does random actions. I like these too ! Ennemies should have their part of challenge. This version of confusion exists in Final Fantasy Explorers on 3DS. When you are confused, moves are reversed : Up becomes down, down = up, left = right and right = left. I do like Insanity too ! We can also imagine heavy ground monsters that make... for instance, GRAVITY : Deny Miriam from jumping for X (5/10/15 ?) seconds, making some combos impossible (particulary air ones) while the monster casting this is rightly strong on the ground, using EARTH element. There is so much possibilities, actually. We can actually upgrade the Confusion effect. We could have the directional mapping rotate 90, 180 or 270 degrees. That randomness help with the confusion since, by definition, Miriam would be thinking anything but straight.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 11, 2016 18:11:06 GMT -6
And I think there will be a mix. They know there's a lot of guys out there that want things to work as closely as possible to SotN. I moved that post to a more appropriate thread if people want to comment on crafting specific ideas. Enemy-specific drops are definitely not gone. He has said that enemies will drop specific components, at least, so that Medusa head might drop a snake hair to make a Medusa shield with, or maybe you could use it to make a Medusa whip that petrifies small enemies instead. The uniqueness and enemy association of the weapons is still there. Could they still drop whole equipment pieces? I don't see why not. And yay, I brought this back around to a status effect. I guess petirfication on enemies could work if it's limited to humanoid-sized things. Could be a weird thing to balance/animate. I can't wait to see things like being petrified return and how it looks in a game like this. I think that's what is exciting to me also, graphics have advanced a lot in recent years, I can't wait to see how some of these things we are used to look now.
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Post by Galamoth on Apr 12, 2016 6:18:49 GMT -6
And I think there will be a mix. They know there's a lot of guys out there that want things to work as closely as possible to SotN. I moved that post to a more appropriate thread if people want to comment on crafting specific ideas. Enemy-specific drops are definitely not gone. He has said that enemies will drop specific components, at least, so that Medusa head might drop a snake hair to make a Medusa shield with, or maybe you could use it to make a Medusa whip that petrifies small enemies instead. The uniqueness and enemy association of the weapons is still there. Could they still drop whole equipment pieces? I don't see why not. And yay, I brought this back around to a status effect. I guess petirfication on enemies could work if it's limited to humanoid-sized things. Could be a weird thing to balance/animate. I can't wait to see things like being petrified return and how it looks in a game like this. I think that's what is exciting to me also, graphics have advanced a lot in recent years, I can't wait to see how some of these things we are used to look now. Same! I'm also wondering how being "Cursed" could work in Bloodstained, assuming that it returns as a status ailment. Will Miriam struggle at swinging a weapon while being affected? Will she rapidly lose MP? (Will the wine-glass that she'd normally throw just shatter in her hand, perhaps?)
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Master Alchemist
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Posts: 572
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Pillow Weapon Advocate
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Jul 20, 2021 8:20:41 GMT -6
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BalancedHydra
[TI1]
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Oct 26, 2015 18:21:13 GMT -6
October 2015
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Post by BalancedHydra on Apr 12, 2016 7:22:36 GMT -6
I can't wait to see things like being petrified return and how it looks in a game like this. I think that's what is exciting to me also, graphics have advanced a lot in recent years, I can't wait to see how some of these things we are used to look now. Same! I'm also wondering how being "Cursed" could work in Bloodstained, assuming that it returns as a status ailment. Will Miriam struggle at swinging a weapon while being affected? Will she rapidly lose MP? (Will the wine-glass that she'd normally throw just shatter in her hand, perhaps?) What if it speeds up the Alchemy Curse she already has?
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Galamoth
Ancient Legion
Eternal Guardian
[TI2] Boss of the Floating Catacombs. Hopes nobody finds his hidden Beryl Circlet.
Posts: 3,402
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Ancient Legion
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Aug 19, 2023 8:35:43 GMT -6
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Galamoth
[TI2] Boss of the Floating Catacombs. Hopes nobody finds his hidden Beryl Circlet.
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June 2015
galamoth
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Post by Galamoth on Apr 12, 2016 7:47:24 GMT -6
Same! I'm also wondering how being "Cursed" could work in Bloodstained, assuming that it returns as a status ailment. Will Miriam struggle at swinging a weapon while being affected? Will she rapidly lose MP? (Will the wine-glass that she'd normally throw just shatter in her hand, perhaps?) What if it speeds up the Alchemy Curse she already has? If that will be the case, then I'd wonder in what way we'll be able to reverse the progress of the Magi-Crystal alchemical curse back to the "normal" state.
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