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Post by crocodile on Feb 19, 2016 17:05:59 GMT -6
Deleted my last post because I don't feel like going into a back and forth about something I just don't agree with. Although this place is nothing without posts, I admire that mentality. No one is obligated to defend their previous statements, thoughts or feelings. Just because someone invites you into a debate doesn't mean you have to indulge. If its clear things are going to get straight up toxic I can agree with bailing out from a sinking ship but I thought the recent conversation I had with@castledan in the shoutbox was good and that wouldn't have been possible if either of us just decided to take their proverbial ball and go home. Ironically, the shoutbox may have been the preferred place for such a conversation due to its relative speed. Making large posts every 30 minutes or whatever would probably have been a less ideal format. I'd also argue that one should always be prepared and able to defend in good faith statements they make. There's of course no law that one has to do so or stick around but "I think this because reasons" isn't an interesting place to start or carry a conversation whereas "I think this because ______" is conducive to good conversation.
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Post by Ghalion on Feb 19, 2016 17:15:45 GMT -6
Yeah some people have different levels of comfort with debates... Its kinda like personal space. Varies from person to person and isnt really a matter of right or wrong until personal insults start appearing.
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XombieMike
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Post by XombieMike on Feb 19, 2016 17:36:11 GMT -6
Yeah some people have different levels of comfort with debates... Its kinda like personal space. Varies from person to person and isnt really a matter of right or wrong until personal insults start appearing. Right, and some people might find one of their first posts here under an article length criticism and never want to post here again. I digress though. I've said all I want about that already.
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Post by spideryfingers on Feb 19, 2016 19:54:56 GMT -6
Castledan and Crocodile debated their cases very well and were both right because I can relate to how they feel. They're just on a different wavelength which adds a touch of spice to the mix I've done a fair bit of farming in all the IGAvanias to some extent. While it was kinda enjoyable to stash enough cash to shell out on something like, for example, the Soul Eater Ring, once I reached the maximum limit of money earned, the farming element suddenly lost its appeal. This is because all of the money I earned just 'sat in the bank' so to speak but with nothing to really show for it apart from the fact that my character was very wealthy. In the back of my mind, I was always hoping that some kind of shady character (similar to Renon) would turn up at some point and give me the stark choice to sacrifice my wealth otherwise my need for greed would result in some kind of episode in hell.
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Post by jboogieg on Feb 19, 2016 22:19:43 GMT -6
Castledan and Crocodile debated their cases very well and were both right because I can relate to how they feel. They're just on a different wavelength which adds a touch of spice to the mix I've done a fair bit of farming in all the IGAvanias to some extent. While it was kinda enjoyable to stash enough cash to shell out on something like, for example, the Soul Eater Ring, once I reached the maximum limit of money earned, the farming element suddenly lost its appeal. This is because all of the money I earned just 'sat in the bank' so to speak but with nothing to really show for it apart from the fact that my character was very wealthy. In the back of my mind, I was always hoping that some kind of shady character (similar to Renon) would turn up at some point and give me the stark choice to sacrifice my wealth otherwise my need for greed would result in some kind of episode in hell. Funnily enough I never personally found my castlevania runs finished until I maxed out my money for shits and giggles haha
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Post by CastleDan on Feb 19, 2016 23:47:09 GMT -6
Yeah the shoutbox just worked way better. We met at a middle ground
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Post by crocodile on Feb 20, 2016 3:53:15 GMT -6
Going back to the topic at hand, a big quality of life improvement would be the ability to manipulate swarms as in Pokemon. Like one or more secret rooms where you can make certain enemies spawn en masse (maybe if you leave a specific type of crystal or item drop from said enemy in that room or somewhere nearby). So instead of a hallway or room with one/two enemies of that nature you have to keep re-entering over and ovr again killing them to hope for a drop, you can just have a room with like 10+ of those enemies to make farming easier.
I know we talked about it in another topic but something that would be helpful is a map component to the bestiary. In Pokemon games, after you've encountered a Pokemon, you can look up which routes you can find that Pokemon in. So it would be helpful (if you're looking for a monster but can't remember where it is) that when you look up monster info for monster's you've already killed, it show you where in the castle they are so you can go there/back there easily.
Finally, I'd assume the game will have several Luck boosting equipment and items so that should be a big help. An item that could massively increase luck but stop you from gaining experience (to help with farming but make sure you aren't over-leveled) would be sweet as well.
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thrashinuva
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Post by thrashinuva on Feb 21, 2016 7:30:00 GMT -6
As far as gaining money goes, there are a few notable examples I can think of, outside of the Castlevania series.
In Final Fantasy VII there are many things to spend money on, and you make just enough to get by for basically the whole game. However, if you know what you're doing, then you can level up your 'All' Materia and will be able to sell two or three of them for an insanely steep price, just in time to make a huge, frivolous purchase, and have way more than enough money to spare for anything you could ever dream of. In Star Ocean Till The End of Time, you will go broke more than once, more than ten times, or even more than that. You're met with some high priced weapons fairly early on in the game that are impossible to afford so early on, but could really help you out for a decent chunk of the game. However, if you know what you're doing, you can map out two areas of the game before you're locked out of those high priced weapons, you'll be given two bunny statues as a reward, which can be sold to give you just enough to afford just one of those weapons. Later on in the game, you can "craft" a specific item (with the only cost being money), that will sell for about double than what you spent to make it, which will end up being your main source of income. In many Namco games, most notably Tales of Abyss, Tales of Xillia 2, and Xenosaga Episode 1, there are casinos. You can spend money to buy coins for these casinos, but cannot exchange your coins for money, probably to avoid international gambling laws or something. Gambling is all chance, and there is a fairly low betting limit for these games that'll make you feel that you'll never get enough coins to get any of the good prizes, which you could actually sell to make the big bucks. However, if you know what you're doing, you'll play Poker in these games, which upon any sort of victory will give you the chance to "Double Up". Double Up is a win big or lose it all game, you double what you just made or you lose it all, and when you win you can double it up again. The game lets you double up about 12 times before it cuts you off, which even with the minimum payout will net you all the coins you could ever dream of. It's easily abusable, and with it you'll end up swimming in your gold vault like Uncle Scrooge.
The point is, all these games had various ways to earn money that basically let you pay your way through those high cost items items that you couldn't otherwise afford, unless you just spent countless hours gathering. There are people who enjoy grinding, but I think there are much less people who enjoy grinding for things that drop based on chance. I suggest a system that you can use to easily earn whatever you need to get things done, just so long as you know what you are doing.
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Post by aquaraider11 on Feb 21, 2016 16:50:46 GMT -6
I hope there are rooms that are set up kind of like a fun and rewarding thing to do a few times. Maybe a quest of sorts... Not sure there. Gold rooms from DoS where pretty fun, they did not require lots of farming but some. IE last 3 digits of your gold count had to be "777" to open "777" door witch contained "777 armor"
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Post by Ghalion on Feb 21, 2016 20:18:40 GMT -6
Funny you mention currency use with such detail.
Imo no rpg has ever done currency correct. At least not that I have played.
Many of them are balanced so that the player can afford everything they could possibly want except some super op thing that you can still get late game.
To me games should be balanced so you can only get a fraction of what is useful, and its up to the player to choose wisely and whatnot. Shopping is fun, but not if you can just grab everything you need without thinking about it.
I doubt bloodstained will cater to my tastes regarding money though, oh well.
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Post by lod7 on Feb 22, 2016 0:14:50 GMT -6
Funny you mention currency use with such detail. Imo no rpg has ever done currency correct. At least not that I have played. Many of them are balanced so that the player can afford everything they could possibly want except some super op thing that you can still get late game. To me games should be balanced so you can only get a fraction of what is useful, and its up to the player to choose wisely and whatnot. Shopping is fun, but not if you can just grab everything you need without thinking about it. I doubt bloodstained will cater to my tastes regarding money though, oh well. This has been done in other games as well. Just have a two currency system. Where you have regular money to purchase consumables and the other more rarer currency (sometimes limited or harder to obtain), used to purchase upgrades and equipment. Bioshock did this with money and eve. I can imagine Bloodstained adopting this kind of system that way if you really wanna collect everything you have to play that sweet NG+.
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Post by Ghalion on Feb 22, 2016 6:02:43 GMT -6
Yeah I know many games with alternative currencies. Those just arent what Id like more though. Generally the alternate currency tends to turn out to be something like a talent/level build.
Etrian odyssey tends to have a great balance for currency early games. But it generally falls into the usual rpg traps of being able to afford everything after the first stratum or two.
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Post by Maker on Feb 22, 2016 10:46:28 GMT -6
@ghalion This is gonna sound really out there so be warned.
I feel like in most games, RPG's / whatever, it doesn't really matter too often what kind. You are often rewarded with something after taking an action and money has always been a side part of that except for MMO's from what I've seen. In these cases where you work towards obtaining something its not the same sense of accomplishment as one gets from micromanaging their spending so much as the feats they achieve to get said item.
Comparable to unlocking a feature rather than buying it (you can make this distinction in real world or in the game honestly) for game related purposes we'll stick to something like the Mega Man series where you defeat bosses or do other more circuitous tasks for other special upgrades (hadoken, shoryuken, Zero's Black Armor etc: ) while cheat codes may have existed for these items the actual way to get them naturally was quite difficult leading to a sense of accomplishment or joy once obtained in such fashion.
Dark Souls takes this a step further, the game itself isn't heavy on monitary spending unless you're buying specific items or leveling up, which souls used as currency for both. That model seems to resonate well with players because it puts more emphasis on the actual accomplishment of the player than anything else. Want to get X weapon X ring and X armor really fast? Git Gud, know your route and don't die, you'll have it in no time. Best of all due to the upgrade system it didn't really break the game either.
World of Tanks on the other hand you can be as bad as you want and it just takes facerolling or bankrolling your grindy self where ever you want to go. Granted that can get real world expensive not just in game, but the idea is the same.
(American example) The inverses of this of course is something akin to a Commercial Drivers License. It first requires you to operate a smaller vehicle to some degree of familiarity and have good prerequisite skills. Moving from there you go to a basic CDL or a CDL A, etc: there's even one for seriously hazardous materials but regardless its a program that means you have to have put in the work to get this designation which cannot be bankrolled (in theory) and you just derp your way through.
Now I'm not particularly arguing for either model to be in or out of Bloodstained per say. Despite the fact this post reads sorta against the dual currency idea, I actually don't care one way or another. Balancing currency and accomplishment can be an interesting part of a game, especially if done very well. Bonus points if it rewards one or the other and not both in the same play-through, now THAT would be an interesting take.
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Post by Ghalion on Feb 22, 2016 11:11:02 GMT -6
Yeah Im not really trying to push my desires into the game here, just trying to talk about it since it was brought up.
I dont really want to compare games with currency being a factor to those without a currency like megaman. But dark souls is a game I like, but I dont think it really handled currency good OR bad. Souls felt more like that talent/spec resource to me, and the shopping aspect of it is very secondary IMO.
I dont even know if bloodstained will even have much of a shop, most castlevania games dont. Oftentimes they are mostly used for a select few consumeables and post game bonus gadgets.
World of tanks is an unusual example because you fan easily spenf more moneh just to keep what you already have than you earn. I like my goodies to feel valuable, not to feel like there is a hole in my wallet that I refuse to fix or avoid =p.
Mmos in general really overdo prices because players who spend all day playing the market instead of the darn game always ruin their economies.
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Post by Saint Germain on Feb 23, 2016 5:28:32 GMT -6
I personally love farming. It makes grinding less tedious by offering rewards other than xp. Also I like collecting stuff in games which adds another goal to the game then just getting to the end.
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Kaius
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Post by Kaius on Mar 3, 2016 5:58:11 GMT -6
Secret rooms. It was a real pleasure to discover a breakable wall. Sometimes you can see it obviously but sometimes not. In SOTN, I've ended slashing every pixel of walls to find a secret room... Then, I got the fairy. So, why not ? Unless you don't have to be paranoïd to find it and to get this more interesting... you should do more than simply hitting the wall. Like, solve an enigma, touch an object like a lantern with a spell or arrow, etc...
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Post by CastleDan on Mar 3, 2016 9:39:29 GMT -6
Secret rooms. It was a real pleasure to discover a breakable wall. Sometimes you can see it obviously but sometimes not. In SOTN, I've ended slashing every pixel of walls to find a secret room... Then, I got the fairy. So, why not ? Unless you don't have to be paranoïd to find it and to get this more interesting... you should do more than simply hitting the wall. Like, solve an enigma, touch an object like a lantern with a spell or arrow, etc... The benefit of SOTN was that there was so many different items you could get in the game. It could be a sword in there...maybe they put a new power? Maybe a cape....maybe a shield. The benefits of exploring was exciting because you never knew what cool items might be hiding in a secret location. If it's just hp increases it's not nearly as enjoyable.
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