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Post by Jango on Jan 7, 2016 0:01:11 GMT -6
I notice a couple things that I want to critique, but I want to commend the devs on their willingness to listen and consider feedback. It is a compliment to say that I'm not surprised by their commitment to their audience, but it's also far from taken for granted. Thanks, inti and Iga.
With all of that said, there are some obvious anti-aliasing kinks to work out with the shader, but it is a marked improvement. The character is not only more visually interesting because of how she's rendered, but also has a noticeably more mature feel about her. Her clothes have improved textures - non-exaggerated but still detailed. The belts and buckles all look firm and constrictive rather than ornamental and lavish, nicely favoring function just ahead of form.
My other critique is a lesser one, but I'd love to see the character rendered with a slightly less saturated palette, similar to her initial concept art. The side by side comparison clearly shows the difference, but I know this render is just another iteration in the process. Im sure there's plenty that inti still wants to tweak.
The overal shape and figure also has a less juvenile feel which is nice. Less Charlotte, more Shanoa. In my opinion, the more mature you make this character seem, the more that feeds back the coldness of her makers, the alchemists. Seeing those belts and harnesses remind me of and reflect her entire condition of marking and containing a lethal and powerful curse. This is a character who must remain extremely thoughtful and vigilant of her condition at all times, lest she be consumed by her affliction. The more visual reminders of her vigilance, the better. Similar to Zangetsu's prayer-dappled arm.
The setting of this render is obviously just as important, if not moreso as inti seems to feel, so I look forward to seeing something similarly well-iterated upon. They're attention to detail is great to see and I'm sure it will continue to improve the game throughout development.
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Post by CastleDan on Jan 7, 2016 0:04:46 GMT -6
Look, I'm not trying to throw shade at NeoGaf but some of the comments are bewildering for me. Someone compared it to two things... This will be a comparison with the new shader which I think is vastly superior to the first two. 1. I see a lot saying it looks like Mighty No 9 2. I saw a few people saying it looks like Dracula X Chronicles. Let's compare shall we.... - Mighty No 9 Graphics  Dracula X Chronicles  Concept art of Miriam  In-game model zoomed in  When someone on a forum says that gone are the days of expecting Hi RES pixel type art of SOTN....I look at the above and think they're denying some obvious beauty here. THE ABOVE looks like a Hi Res evolution of the below, and it totally keeps the spirit and look of the 2d vibe.  Not shade being thrown but an explanation as to why a lot of people should be very proud of the work they're doing. To compare it to those games seems pretty wrong when looking at the evidence. |
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Post by lod7 on Jan 7, 2016 0:09:00 GMT -6
This fan community continues to impress. As does IGA and company's willingness to listen to it. Mutual respect helping to polish a game in the right way. This is how a crowd-funded game should be done and I continue to be excited to be a part of this process! Go Army of the Night! I am just worried that down the road the community becomes toxic. Currently I like community because of the positive feedback they give the devs as well as having a healthy amount of fans whom are knowledgeable in programming, it seems. |
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Post by giwagiwa on Jan 7, 2016 0:32:09 GMT -6
I love the look! My only complaint is that her boobs are bigger than the head Many girls' boobs are just as large as their head. Also, you are incorrect. They are 2/3 the size of her head which was cut off in the picture. |
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 7, 2016 3:16:40 GMT -6
For those wondering, I'm 99% certain that is really Ben Judd. I asked him to verify. I don't know why he didn't use his old account, but he only used it once any way a long time ago.
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jan 7, 2016 4:22:20 GMT -6
On the shader itself, I have zero criticisms. This is pretty much exactly what I asked for in my criticism of the previous shaders, even to the point of simplifying the textures a notch and making the shading do more of the visual work. On top of that, I didn't know that I wanted a more painterly look, but now that I see what they did here... yes please. More of this.
The only thing I might adjust is the saturation level. Like Jango said, it would be interesting to see it line up more with the concept art in that respect. At least as a point of comparison against what we already see here.
Great work Inti Creates! If you can carry this style over to the backgrounds as well, I think we'll have something special on our hands.
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Post by Apollonian on Jan 7, 2016 5:46:06 GMT -6
CastleDan The one thing I have to disagree with you about is the 2d vibe. I feel like the shading makes it really clear that it is a 3d character model, which is fine of course and it is a 3d character model after all. I don't think it looks any more 2d than Valkyria Chronicles or FFT:WotL but that is my opinion.
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Post by qaantar on Jan 7, 2016 6:25:27 GMT -6
Looking back at the pictures for shaders 1 & 2, that was a lot of visual stuff to try to process all at once (both the character visuals and the background appearance).
I'm sure we're all curious about the background, but it was probably a smart move to just show the character visuals this time around (and this is technically a teaser picture, so we still might see more??). The feedback so far seems to be much more positive than the first round, with some good points and ideas for further tweaking (e.g., the "tattoo" quality).
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Post by CastleDan on Jan 7, 2016 7:55:44 GMT -6
CastleDan The one thing I have to disagree with you about is the 2d vibe. I feel like the shading makes it really clear that it is a 3d character model, which is fine of course and it is a 3d character model after all. I don't think it looks any more 2d than Valkyria Chronicles or FFT:WotL but that is my opinion. @rvm Compared to the other two it's the only one that almost looks like concept art. Especially with the water color look it has. In comparison to the other shaders it has a deceptive 2d quality to it. Just look at the chest pad between the shaders, it almost looks drawn and painted on shader 4 while the others are 3d looking and reflecting. It's clearly a 3d model but the way they shaded it and colored it gives it a painted artistic look in comparison. Especially because this shader is so zoomed in; make it a smaller image and it will look very 2d and that's a good thing. Her character model won't appear anyway near this size, it's great. |
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Post by Apollonian on Jan 7, 2016 8:48:24 GMT -6
CastleDan The one thing I have to disagree with you about is the 2d vibe. I feel like the shading makes it really clear that it is a 3d character model, which is fine of course and it is a 3d character model after all. I don't think it looks any more 2d than Valkyria Chronicles or FFT:WotL but that is my opinion. @rvm Compared to the other two it's the only one that almost looks like concept art. Especially with the water color look it has. In comparison to the other shaders it has a deceptive 2d quality to it. Just look at the chest pad between the shaders, it almost looks drawn and painted on shader 4 while the others are 3d looking and reflecting. It's clearly a 3d model but the way they shaded it and colored it gives it a painted artistic look in comparison. Especially because this shader is so zoomed in; make it a smaller image and it will look very 2d and that's a good thing. Her character model won't appear anyway near this size, it's great. Like I said I agree that it does look painted and similar to the concept art, I am just saying it doesn't make it look 2d to me at all. I honestly don't see any way they could make it look that way without it being 2d though so it is a moot point. I am very interested in seeing the shader applied to the background though, should be interesting. |
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 7, 2016 8:50:54 GMT -6
This fan community continues to impress. As does IGA and company's willingness to listen to it. Mutual respect helping to polish a game in the right way. This is how a crowd-funded game should be done and I continue to be excited to be a part of this process! Go Army of the Night! I am just worried that down the road the community becomes toxic. Currently I like community because of the positive feedback they give the devs as well as having a healthy amount of fans whom are knowledgeable in programming, it seems. There is potential for any Internet community to go toxic, but I really believe that this community will only get better and better. We have good mods who respect the other members and don't make mod edits to censor people. We have rules that require that no personal insults be made and a good way to report and enforce them. Our communications manager will be a great help in taking this place to the next level. This forum has proven to be a mature place even with opposing opinions that are well discussed in respectful manners. The only things that could threaten us is other communities trying to invade to push an agenda. That's like if we somehow piss off 4chan or Tumblr SJWs or Gamer Gate, etc. Even if that stuff happens, our interest in the game will outlast their interest in their attack. You already know how cool this place can be, but you are about to open a door here directly to the design team. Imagine what that will be like. We have had sprinkles of posts from Fangamer and Ben, but you're about to have daily interaction with someone who is in the same office as IGA every day. I know it's odd that a comment about becoming toxic is what has me expressing my excitement, but I really appreciate everyone who posts here, and I hope we see more and more people share their thoughts on the game as time goes on. |
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Post by Apollonian on Jan 7, 2016 9:12:30 GMT -6
That's like if we somehow piss off 4chan So...hypothetically, If one were to go on a spampage (spam + rampage) on 4chan calling them nerds and then tell them if they have a problem with that to take it up with my their "crew" on the bloodstained forums that would be a bad thing? Good thing? We may have an issue here.  |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 7, 2016 9:25:12 GMT -6
People on the internet will hate things. There does not necessarily have to be any manner of reasoning for it, though often it may be simply because they know other people (fans of whatever they're deriding) will be upset by it. Not even just trolls, that's just how it goes. Otherwise, some people are just negative. I wouldn't let these things bother you, CastleDan . I see terms like toxic this and that pretty often these days. If anything gets big enough, there will be sour people there. It's whatever, people are people. Stay positive and what you like will still have the qualities that cause you to like it. edit: To elaborate on my previous point re: shader 3/4 as RVM was curious how I arrived at that: it's an assumption from the direction their work has taken them. Instead of taking input from 1/2 to consider why we do/don't like those, instead I think we sent enough to be compiled to form something new that obsoletes/surpasses the previous work. Now, that said, I would welcome further looks and options, though I have to imagine it would be a variant on what we have here now. Mike, that post is exciting af |
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Post by thrashinuva on Jan 7, 2016 9:35:12 GMT -6
Yeah terms get thrown out for all kinds of things these days, though I have to admit I can't stay on certain sites for too long, just due to the sheer negativity and lack of understanding. Every now and then I find a neogaf link and there are genuinely knowledgeable people there, but it's filled with so many people who I have to question what world they came from, which is all about the attitude they take when presenting their opinion.
To be honest, when Shader 1 & 2 came around I was genuinely surprised at the level of maturity on this forum. It's only natural that no matter how well you convey your message to what you're trying to create, that whenever someone sees the first glimpse they'll say "this isn't what I paid for". I'm glad I didn't see too much of that here.
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Post by Ghalion on Jan 7, 2016 10:05:54 GMT -6
Looks good but I think fans need to bear in mind that we are going to see more castle and furnature and less close ups of miriam during the game... And many people felt shader 1 looked better on the bg than on miriam and vice versa.
Basically im saying you guys should see how it looks in a "normal" screenshot before you commit... And by you guys I mean the fans =p
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 7, 2016 10:10:59 GMT -6
thrashinuva you were one of the first registered members and it's good to see you are still here. I'm an optimistic guy, but I reserve the right to give constructive criticism too. People might assume that just because I'm emotionally and monetarily invested in Bloodstained that I might be prone to be in denial about some polarizing issues on the game. That's not the case though. I just have an attitude that if we approach these topics logically and compile our opinions in an organized fashion that we can help this game become what we want it to be. That same kind of attitude seems to be similar to most members here, and this is the reason I think we will be a community worth being part of. Plus, we all have this in common and interact on a regular basis, so I feel like you all are friends as much as Internet friends can be.
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Post by Redogan on Jan 7, 2016 10:24:11 GMT -6
Giving feedback to the development team is great and all, but I don't want to see the community taking the reigns out of IGA's hands/the devs' hands and demanding things done a certain way. I almost feel like they were going to do Shader 3 and 4, but because of the community feedback on the teaser, now they may not proceed in that direction. There needs to be a line drawn between considering/implementing stuff from the community feedback and doing what IGA needs to do to make the game his way. I mean, if everyone says Miriam needs to run around in bare feet all the time, will IGA drop all the footwear development and make her barefoot to appease everyone or will he take a firm stand and say she needs shoes/boots if that is what he wants?
I'm not trying to be bitter, but I want to make sure we are only giving input/feedback and not using the community's pull to sway things one way or another.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 7, 2016 10:29:39 GMT -6
Giving feedback to the development team is great and all, but I don't want to see the community taking the reigns out of IGA's hands/the devs' hands and demanding things done a certain way. I almost feel like they were going to do Shader 3 and 4, but because of the community feedback on the teaser, now they may not proceed in that direction. There needs to be a line drawn between considering/implementing stuff from the community feedback and doing what IGA needs to do to make the game his way. I mean, if everyone says Miriam needs to run around in bare feet all the time, will IGA drop all the footwear development and make her barefoot to appease everyone or will he take a firm stand and say she needs shoes/boots if that is what he wants? I'm not trying to be bitter, but I want to make sure we are only giving input/feedback and not using the community's pull to sway things one way or another. As much as I think about this too, it's really not an issue. I tend to think of this when I hear negative people being loud about some general issue. IGA is ultimately going to do what he thinks us best with every single decision. Constructive feedback is never a bad thing, no matter how negative. The only reason that us true is because I fully trust IGA. |
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jan 7, 2016 10:41:09 GMT -6
Giving feedback to the development team is great and all, but I don't want to see the community taking the reigns out of IGA's hands/the devs' hands and demanding things done a certain way. I almost feel like they were going to do Shader 3 and 4, but because of the community feedback on the teaser, now they may not proceed in that direction. There needs to be a line drawn between considering/implementing stuff from the community feedback and doing what IGA needs to do to make the game his way. I mean, if everyone says Miriam needs to run around in bare feet all the time, will IGA drop all the footwear development and make her barefoot to appease everyone or will he take a firm stand and say she needs shoes/boots if that is what he wants? I'm not trying to be bitter, but I want to make sure we are only giving input/feedback and not using the community's pull to sway things one way or another. I find this to be a weird sentiment, not because I disagree with it, but because I don't see how it's reasonable concern to have. We can't take control of the project from IGA. He never made any kind of promise to pander to our demands. He's an experienced enough director that he can steer the development of the game in the direction he wants it to go. If the latest update was made in reaction to our suggestions on the previous shaders, then that means that IGA took the criticism and ran with it. It doesn't mean he gave up creative control of his project, but rather that he's willing to take into consideration input from outside his development team, which isn't a bad thing. And it's not like we're looking at GIGO development here. They didn't merely regurgitate our suggestions. They made use of them. I don't recall anyone asking for a painterly style to the textures, but now that I see it, I can't imagine a better compliment to the aggressive shaders they used on the new update. It's far better than what I imagined when I gave my input on the previous shaders. And that's all them. |
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Redogan
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Post by Redogan on Jan 7, 2016 10:50:13 GMT -6
Yeah, I may be jumping the gun a bit. I'm glad to hear others have thought of this and are not concerned.
I guess my fear comes from the fact that the project is crowd-funded and therefore comes with a certain obligation to appease those that have already laid their money down. The community being in on the development is kind of a new beast for most developers, so I wasn't sure how the dev teams/project leads handle it. This is the first kick-started project I've backed that met it's goal, so it's new to me as well.
Again, glad to hear it shouldn't be an issue for IGA.
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