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Post by CastleDan on Dec 4, 2015 21:10:06 GMT -6
So I thought we should have a topic to discuss the graphics thus far... our thoughts Things we like Things we dislike Things that could be improved... Let's be nice, and just share our opinions, we all know they are working incredibly hard and putting their all into this game. This isn't a topic meant to hurt feelings, it's a topic to share our thoughts on the work in progress. So to begin- I want to start by saying I absolutely adore the new character model compared to the sample one originally. She almost looks drawn. Very detailed, very beautiful, i would change nothing about her. I really dig shader 1 as it keeps the mood of castlevania alive and color is everything, I don't care for drab environments that have no good color or interesting designs, they are never my favorite locations One issue i'm concerned about is that compared to the original sample video the new pic appears much more in line with how Mighty no 9 looks. I will show examples of what I mean.  Originally the game seemed to have a very flat look, but with beautiful scrolling effects in the background. It gave the environment a very drawn 2d look. The background also appears very thin designed no signs of bulky cartoon like designs in the environment keeping in line with it's gothic mature tones. However, with the recent picture-  It seems to be showing way more of the ground and giving it way more of a 3d environment look. While that is cool in terms of cramming things in the background, it kills more of the 2d vibe the original had. Then you look at the banister and it's all bulky, the door, is very bulky and squished looking....it reminds me more of this -  Everything seems more scrunched down like this and the envrionment seems to be even more on a tilt giving it a bigger 3d feel, which makes the IGAVANIA vibe diminish a bit in my opinion. I feel the closer the image is STRAIGHT ON with minimal tilt, and the bigger and more grand the environments look instead of scrunched down the better the overall visual effect will be to fans of the series. ( in my opinion of course) the desired effect would be getting these types of environments in a side scrolling viewpoint  More grit, more realism... That's not to say they shouldn't keep the visual style of the shaders, just the design of this would feel more castlevania in the end... Thoughts? Any thing you want to discuss visually in regards to what you hope for? wanna elaborate? Agree? Disagree? Share your own thoughts..... |
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Post by Zankoukanshokai on Dec 4, 2015 21:32:48 GMT -6
In all honesty, I like the design they originally have from the early developmental video. I looked at the 2D background, which resembles from the previous IGAvania games we've all been playing in the past. However, we all know that IGA's direction is going for 2.5D and I don't have a problem with. I actually thought Shader 1 was more appealing to me than Shader 2. However, when I look at the MN9 screenshot, I do see what you are talking about. It lowers the 2D vibe we've all been looking. Colors are sharp and it seems a little too bright and welcoming for my taste. For Bloodstained, I think they should keep it 3D visual affect and somehow lower the brightness of the background. It would be interesting to see if they can match the atmosphere of Lament of Innocence (like from the image shown). But this is just my opinion, and I can't really say I'm an expert in color and shades, etc...
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Post by Apollonian on Dec 4, 2015 21:43:14 GMT -6
Am I wrong in assuming that it is going to look different later? It doesn't look much different from the psp DXC graphically. Tone wise it looks much "kiddier" (terrible choice of words...brighter, less gloomy. that sorta thing) compared to the darker atmosphere of that game.
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Post by maedhros on Dec 4, 2015 21:43:37 GMT -6
That's because they just copy/pasted the concept art as textures on the game.
It was ok for a quick prototype, but it would looks completely ridiculous in a full game.
Anyway, I'm not that happy with the look yet. The models are really, really low poly and the shaders aren't really that nice. But there are still texture work, mapping, lightining/shadows to work, so it's not like anything is final yet.
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Post by CastleDan on Dec 4, 2015 22:12:51 GMT -6
DXC is what I'm hoping they don't do visually. The copy pasted concept art as textures in the development vid looked more beautiful, and felt more like a 2d igavania than this does. That's my point. People would most likely prefer a 2d game so since that can't be done I think making it look as 2d as possible is the best route.
The best way to achieve that would probably to give it less of a tilt and have it more straight on, and try to stay away from the bright inviting look and go for a more gritty grim look. I prefer the background look of the prototype over this, but the model is much nicer in this than the prototype.
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Post by Apollonian on Dec 4, 2015 22:20:21 GMT -6
Yeah the prototype was my dream for the game but I knew it wouldn't look like it. Surprised by how different it looks since the mighty no. 9 comparison is dead on at this point. It is still early though and I have the feeling (or at least hope) that they just mocked up a room real quick for this reveal and even the least detailed room would look better than that. The character model reminds me of Abyss Odyssey a bit (just the character model)  |
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Post by CastleDan on Dec 4, 2015 23:04:36 GMT -6
Yeah, it's weird because...the prototype got so much praise and it seems weird that they'd go away from that visually. As I said the character model now is perfect, but they should revert back to that look. It's the closest to looking like 2d without being 2d.
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Post by gunlord500 on Dec 4, 2015 23:08:10 GMT -6
Yes, I've heard worries about Bloodstained looking like Mighty #9 too. Still, I wouldn't be too distraught. I was reading a thread about this elsewhere, and someone pointed out that Bloodstained still has toooons of room to improve, while MN9 is much further along in the development process. If this was the eve of the release I would feel worried, but they have 2 years to polish everything up, which I'm sure they will  |
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Post by CastleDan on Dec 4, 2015 23:11:59 GMT -6
Yes, I've heard worries about Bloodstained looking like Mighty #9 too. Still, I wouldn't be too distraught. I was reading a thread about this elsewhere, and someone pointed out that Bloodstained still has toooons of room to improve, while MN9 is much further along in the development process. If this was the eve of the release I would feel worried, but they have 2 years to polish everything up, which I'm sure they will My worry isn't so much the quality of what they have it's the design approach though. Like, yeah they could add more effects here and there, add more detail into the background. However, if design wise it reminds me of Mighty Number 9 then that's not something that is as easy to change in time. That's the whole foundation of what it will look like. Meaning...the backgrounds now look to be in the style of mighty number 9. They can mess with shaders all they want but those backgrounds will remain the same 'style'. My fear is they improve the shader, and add better visuals effects but keep the foundation that doesn't look like the same throughout. |
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Post by LordKaiser on Dec 4, 2015 23:24:07 GMT -6
1rst time here since my PC broke just when this forum became official. I feel lost here so I don't know if this go here but I will post the GDC from a unrelated company called Arc System Works about their milestone with Guilty Gear Xrd's 2D 1/2 graphics. www.gdcvault.com/play/1022031/GuiltyGearXrd-s-Art-Style-TheSomeone on the Kickstarter forum told me that having too much self lit moving objects will consume way too much resources but with Revelator by including the character Jack-O I'm now in doubt. |
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Post by crocodile on Dec 4, 2015 23:44:05 GMT -6
When 2.5D games that try to emulate true 2D game go for "grit" and "realism", I feel they often miss the mark. It's part of the reason I'm more of a fan of the first shader - I felt a lot more like the promo art that had strong colors (Red, Blue, etc.) and I think those shaders better approximate that look. When using 3D to emulate 2D, "colorful" (to the right degree) tends to work better than "gritty". So I can't say that moving the graphics in a direction to more look like something like Lament of Innocence is something I agree with. Your other point CastleDan I do agree with though. Mighty No 9. wouldn't be my first comparison but the technique you're describing - the way they tilt the camera to give the background more depth as opposed to using a flatter angle that is more in line with 2D aesthetics is something I'm not a fan of. I think it was even something IGA mentioned in that prototype video and I wasn't sure how it would present itself in game but now we know. Yeah I think I'd prefer if they went with the flatter, more 2D look. I think as a series with strong 2D roots, its important they stay as close to their 2D roots. There is much room for change and innovation in the realm of Bloodstained compared to Castelvania but I don't think this is the place to change things around. This is not to say the game can't look great this way but I think if they went with a flatter look/angle, a lot of people would much prefer it <3 If this bothers others, I think people should be sure to mention this in the Google Form feedback sheet. Be polite though <3 |
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Post by CastleDan on Dec 5, 2015 0:06:27 GMT -6
When 2.5D games that try to emulate true 2D game go for "grit" and "realism", I feel they often miss the mark. It's part of the reason I'm more of a fan of the first shader - I felt a lot more like the promo art that had strong colors (Red, Blue, etc.) and I think those shaders better approximate that look. When using 3D to emulate 2D, "colorful" (to the right degree) tends to work better than "gritty". So I can't say that moving the graphics in a direction to more look like something like Lament of Innocence is something I agree with. Your other point CastleDan I do agree with though. Mighty No 9. wouldn't be my first comparison but the technique you're describing - the way they tilt the camera to give the background more depth as opposed to using a flatter angle that is more in line with 2D aesthetics is something I'm not a fan of. I think it was even something IGA mentioned in that prototype video and I wasn't sure how it would present itself in game but now we know. Yeah I think I'd prefer if they went with the flatter, more 2D look. I think as a series with strong 2D roots, its important they stay as close to their 2D roots. There is much room for change and innovation in the realm of Bloodstained compared to Castelvania but I don't think this is the place to change things around. This is not to say the game can't look great this way but I think if they went with a flatter look/angle, a lot of people would much prefer it <3 If this bothers others, I think people should be sure to mention this in the Google Form feedback sheet. Be polite though <3 Yeah everyone should mention using less of a tilt in the vein of the prototype. I'm not saying a totally realistic gritty look btw...Just one thats more in line with how Lament of innocence looks, it's a bit more gritty and less simple looking. Lament is darker toned and more detailed in it's environments that's basically all i'm saying. They could easily do that.. |
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Post by GenericSoda on Dec 5, 2015 0:11:29 GMT -6
The most disappointing thing about the shaders was that the sample screenshots didn't have strong use of colors. I like the idea of hatch lines for the shadows, since it'll help convey the idea of an unnatural setting really well. The more impossible stuff that Bloodstained does the better. I'd love to see the game go full-on cel shaded, especially with aggressive shadowing, mostly because I love Guilty Gear Xrd's look so much.
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Post by kirtap on Dec 5, 2015 0:30:37 GMT -6
Kind of disappointed they didn't do sprite work, but regarding the celshaders they wer showing us, the #1 looks better to me. #2 kind of seems off despite what I believe is the intention to go with the gothic style.
I'm guessing we'll end up with the pale skin reminiscent of IGA's earlier games at some point though,.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Dec 5, 2015 0:51:02 GMT -6
1rst time here since my PC broke just when this forum became official. I feel lost here so I don't know if this go here but I will post the GDC from a unrelated company called Arc System Works about their milestone with Guilty Gear Xrd's 2D 1/2 graphics. www.gdcvault.com/play/1022031/GuiltyGearXrd-s-Art-Style-TheSomeone on the Kickstarter forum told me that having too much self lit moving objects will consume way too much resources but with Revelator by including the character Jack-O I'm now in doubt. Wow, I'd heard about this presentation, but didn't know it was viewable in a format like this. Really cool. This guy should definitely be proud of what he's accomplished. I agree with crocodile. The color and spirit of what they're going for is good with me, but the tilt of the prototype would be preferable. This one room for the shader presentation may have more depth shown than usual just to show us what they want to, though... |
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Post by Redogan on Dec 5, 2015 10:04:11 GMT -6
I think the Shader #1 pic was awesome. It definitely needs some work, but the tilt thing is not bothering me at all. If you look at the screen shots in full size though, you can see that things like the chair Miriam sits in has sharp polygonal points. They need to apply a shader that smooths and rounds the edges. Maybe in a second layer shader? Can you do that? Apply different layers of shaders? I don't really know much about shaders, but I like what I saw in Shader #1. The color may have been a bit too vibrant, but overall it looks awesome to me.
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Post by Scars Unseen on Dec 5, 2015 11:23:23 GMT -6
Kind of disappointed they didn't do sprite work, but regarding the celshaders they wer showing us, the #1 looks better to me. #2 kind of seems off despite what I believe is the intention to go with the gothic style. I'm guessing we'll end up with the pale skin reminiscent of IGA's earlier games at some point though,. Why disappointed? They said they were doing 2.5D from the very beginning, so it's not like they set up any expectations to knock down. Anyway, I agree that the angle should be a bit shallower, but I seem to be in the minority in that I vastly prefer the second shader. It isn't perfect, but IMO the first one emphasizes the 3D nature of the models used. I think that shader #2 with more subtle hatching and some high contrast shading on the character would be fantastic. |
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Post by maedhros on Dec 5, 2015 11:36:42 GMT -6
We know from day 1 that a sprited game wouldn't be possible.
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Post by Apollonian on Dec 5, 2015 11:38:03 GMT -6
I have seen others say they were disappointed for the same reason. In those cases they knew the game was going to be 2.5D and were expressing disappointment that the sprite style was not the style the team chose to make the game in. Kirtap could have meant it that way but since the statement is vague it could go either way.
Personally I prefer the sprite style but I am not disappointed.
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Post by nekurors on Dec 5, 2015 11:39:04 GMT -6
First: some people seems lost on kickstarter comments and some here, since day 1 we all knew it wouldn't be a 2D game (sprite based), there are serveral reasons for that most obvious their skills are into unreal engine, so... i always expected it full 3D and that's not a problem.
About the screenshots, i am not sure if we should discuss the graphics style yet (beyond shader i mean), that was not the point here, also i don't feel like i can judge it from a single room screenshot, i need to see her walking on a corridor to debate about how the graphics feels and also on different room archictectures.
And no i never spected something near a true sprite-based game, cut off the comparison with GGX, they are another team and have pretty different skills, what if inti creates has no experience with that kind of graphics, do you guys really want them to 'lose' time learning it and risk the game graphics on a completely new way to do graphics? it seems pretty risky. Also it still pretty earlier you cannot just assume the rooms will have that style, nobody said it.
However as it is now i can imagine her walking around with that 3D-ish style with no problem, it seems fine, but as i stated we need to see other rooms and real movement to say anything. Well at least i guess it is good backers and fans are saying what they want and what they don't, it may helps the developers to have a better idea of what people expect.
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