XombieMike
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Post by XombieMike on Aug 24, 2015 20:26:18 GMT -6
Several demons of the Lesser Key are described as having a "good" nature. Prince Vassago is my favorite, but there is also Prince Seere and Agares. Duke Sallos is a pacifist. I wonder if the alchemists had the orphans for a while before they decided to use them for such evil sacrificial purposes. I don't think Johannes knew the other alchemist's intentions until he had a good relationship with both Miriam and Gebel. Maybe Miriam already had a demon friend, or maybe she can make some.
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zoned87
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Post by zoned87 on Aug 24, 2015 20:30:44 GMT -6
They could make them NPC's, vendors or familiars.
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Post by Togposh on Aug 24, 2015 20:34:16 GMT -6
What if we had good demon characters that help Miriam on her adventure.
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wiggychiggy
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Post by wiggychiggy on Aug 24, 2015 20:36:51 GMT -6
Hahahah, I just pulled this image off of Imgur earlier today too! We know that Johannes was the only dissenting voice against the Alchemist Guild's decision to bring demons to Earth in order to show the world they still retained much of their power .It is stated that he was good friends with Gebel so perhaps he was once an orphan himself, until he was adopted into the Alchemist's Guild? I still stand by my desire to see a 'demon merchant' in the game. All his wares...for a price. Although the player might think the demon desire's Miriam's soul he's quite content with gold and jewel pieces. Or perhaps we'll see some form of incarnate lesser demon than assists Miriam if she brings trinkets to appeal to the demon. Similar in fashion to the talking birds from the Dark Souls series.
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XombieMike
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Post by XombieMike on Aug 24, 2015 20:44:03 GMT -6
Many of the demons of the Lesser Key provide familiars.
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Canopus
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Post by Canopus on Aug 24, 2015 20:54:52 GMT -6
I'm certainly open to the inclusion of more civilized demons. Even many of the high ranking demons had order, law, and etiquette. This factor is often overlooked by storytellers, authors, concept artists, and creators.
For example... Renon from Castlevania 64 was always a favorite of mine in fictional works. While not fully malicious (yet with a few tricks), he was genuinely dedicated to helping you. Granted, he still had a job to do and would see it done, if need be. But if you did what most players would, and kept the amount you spent with him under 30,000... you'd learn that Renon was actually a pretty solid fellow.
The word daimon [dī’mōn’], with the meaning of “guiding spirit,” is a latecomer to English (earliest OED citation 1852). With its different pronunciation, daimon stands as a possible alternate choice for writers who want the sense of the word without the confusion with demon. Nevertheless, the spelling daemon has its appeal.
The three English words demon, daemon, and daimon all derive from Greek δαίμων (daimôn), the word for a spirit that served as a link between the human and divine spheres. Daimons could be benevolent or malevolent. They were much lower in the divine hierarchy than gods like Jupiter and Diana.
In first century Rome, a good way to make a pagan angry was to refer to all his gods as “daimons.” In Christian writings the word was used to signify “pagan god” or “unclean spirit.” Much later, when the Bible was translated into Old English, “demon” was rendered as “devil.”
One type of “daimon” recognized by pagans was a benevolent spirit, a “guardian angel” that attended the individual from birth to death. This personal “genius” was a kind of soul.
With this in mind, I don't see a reason for all demons to be evil. They're a race of individuals much like humans. Each with their own problems, answers, governing laws, and social structures. I think it would be excellent to view this side of the legends in a more intriguing light. The Shin Megami saga touches on such thoughts frequently, and I don't mind the idea at all.
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Post by Ixbran on Aug 24, 2015 20:56:17 GMT -6
I've always liked the idea of Demons being like humans; capable of being both good or bad. So I would really like it if Miriam could end up meeting demons that are friendly in nature.
Familiars are, theoretically, good demons. but on the other hand it could be less a 'they are nice' thing and more 'they are just loyal to her due to her strength' sort of deal. Having a demon that is 100% good natured, that is helpful and kind, would be a nice change of pace.
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gunlord500
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Post by gunlord500 on Aug 25, 2015 0:25:07 GMT -6
I've known of a few settings where demons are occasionally or even often nice, but those are almost never 'traditional' demons, or else the setting is trying to grind an axe against traditional religious belief XD In the Myth Adventures series, there are plenty of good guy demons, but "demon" is just a catch all term for interdimensional traveler rather than a servant of Hell. Considering how evil Hell is, any 'good' demon would either be a rebel against Hell or not associated with Hell at all.
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Post by zombiepaste on Aug 25, 2015 5:58:20 GMT -6
I looked at this thread here: www.bloodstainedfanforums.com/thread/571/good-natured-demonsand thought....C-vania had alot of things but what you didn't see much of were creatures who are presumed to be evil at birth, given a different light.... Imagine if one section of this was a demonic war....where respawning demons continuously fight across a fiery battlefield with layers of demon fighting going on and with your help you and the good aligned demons can reach the other side and you could continue on. ( the good ones would turn around only to see their foes resurrected behind them and have to fight across the giant room again.) You could possibly be fighting into an enemy encampment where you'll finally reach the demon sergeant and boss of that part of the level.
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Redogan
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Post by Redogan on Aug 25, 2015 6:12:43 GMT -6
I always liked Vulgrim from the Darksiders series. He served as a merchant, but also gave insight from the demon side of things and he had his own agendas.
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Post by Astaroth on Aug 25, 2015 8:38:46 GMT -6
Well, you gotta remember that most demons and 'evil angels' come about because when a religion takes the place of another religion it often does so one of 2 ways, by force or by persuasion. If its done by force the figures of the older religion have already been whipped up into the ultimate evils so the invading zealots are less likely to see the opposition as people and sympathize with them. The other method usually involved bringing in people by including their gods somehow and as the older converts died out and more control was asserted over the new generations to give up 'the old ways', the older religion would slowly be demonized and perverted until they resemble dark and twisted versions of the original being. This can happen with any power structure, but its often most spectacular when it involves religions
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Post by H on Aug 25, 2015 9:23:06 GMT -6
I'm glad Canopus mentioned Renon. He's also one of my favorite demons in CV . What I was taught years ago, was that demons were simply fallen angels. Angels in themselves look terrifying and alien, but are shrouded in literal light so it makes it harder for humans to really see how they look. "Demons" are angels without the light, and so if they let themselves get seen we see their true physical terror. (Similarly to this, humans did not see each other as nude before sin because they are shrouded in "holy light". Afterwards though, we lost that light and that is when we saw our entirety.) Some people are in favour with demonkind because they agree that we should live the way we want to live, that we have the right to make our own lives and pursue whatever comes across our minds. That is the reason they "fell". For their freedom. On the other hand, people are in agreement that we as humans are too chaotic in nature to ever do any good by ourselves, which is where most religions come into play. I'd love for there to be some civilized friendly demons, and maybe "enemy" angels as well if there are any in the source material. I really need to read more on that stuff because it all sounds very interesting.
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Canopus
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Post by Canopus on Aug 25, 2015 11:10:15 GMT -6
I'm glad Canopus mentioned Renon. He's also one of my favorite demons in CV . What I was taught years ago, was that demons were simply fallen angels. Angels in themselves look terrifying and alien, but are shrouded in literal light so it makes it harder for humans to really see how they look. "Demons" are angels without the light, and so if they let themselves get seen we see their true physical terror. (Similarly to this, humans did not see each other as nude before sin because they are shrouded in "holy light". Afterwards though, we lost that light and that is when we saw our entirety.) Some people are in favour with demonkind because they agree that we should live the way we want to live, that we have the right to make our own lives and pursue whatever comes across our minds. That is the reason they "fell". For their freedom. On the other hand, people are in agreement that we as humans are too chaotic in nature to ever do any good by ourselves, which is where most religions come into play. I'd love for there to be some civilized friendly demons, and maybe "enemy" angels as well if there are any in the source material. I really need to read more on that stuff because it all sounds very interesting. Here's a few examples of exactly what you're looking for, regarding darker angel lore. Pretty dark, eh?
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Post by H on Aug 25, 2015 11:48:08 GMT -6
Ah yes I'm familiar with their doings. They mostly act as "drones" in a way in the Bible. Doing anything they are told from their leader(s) without hesitations. If they do it any other way or straight up disobey, they would be considered "fallen", or demons according to the scripture. If they were in this game, I can easily see them as being our enemies if our goal is to save Gebel from his curse. Oh, also I was referring to reading more on the Lesser Key of Solomon stuff since I have minimum knowledge on that haha. I really gotta get better at speaking more clearly. I appreciate the article link though!
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Canopus
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Post by Canopus on Aug 25, 2015 12:07:52 GMT -6
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Post by aindriu on Aug 25, 2015 14:00:28 GMT -6
I fully support this dichotomy of both good and evil demons and, indeed, suspect that this will be the case; much of Japanese lore doesn't automatically polarize demons as being exclusively evil.
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gunlord500
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Post by gunlord500 on Aug 25, 2015 16:22:43 GMT -6
Hmm...wouldn't that sort of apply to Alucard? He's half vampire and distrusted by the people because of it, despite his noble nature...
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Post by Togposh on Aug 25, 2015 16:40:15 GMT -6
this is the englais definition for demon "An evil spirit or devil." mabye the japanese has a different meaning.
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Post by aindriu on Aug 26, 2015 0:08:13 GMT -6
this is the englais definition for demon "An evil spirit or devil." mabye the japanese has a different meaning. In many Japanese myths, demons are always dark in origin, sure, but not always inherently evil.
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Canopus
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Post by Canopus on Aug 26, 2015 0:25:14 GMT -6
As previously stated in that thread... Demon is an evolved form of another source word, Daimon and Daemon. Again, as stated in the other thread... I think it would be excellent to view this side of the legends in a more intriguing light. The Shin Megami saga touches on such thoughts frequently, and I don't mind the idea at all. But are these threads not essentially the same? They both appear to cover the same topic. Perhaps it would be best to merge the two?
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