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Post by Everett Spair on Jul 9, 2019 8:41:15 GMT -6
I thought the game was too hard on normal difficulty. I wish there was an easy difficulty because normal is a bit too hard for me.
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Post by fullmetalsnorlax on Jul 9, 2019 12:25:11 GMT -6
SotN and Bloodstained RotN are hands down the two easiest IgaVanias. But at least Bloodstained has not one, but two harder difficulties. (I don't count AxeArmour mode as a difficulty setting).
The main thing that makes these two games so easy is the sheer number of broken items/abilities at your disposal. Your bound to find at least one and breeze through the rest of the game. At least Bloodstained has nothing on the level of the Alucard shield+shield rod...
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 9, 2019 13:31:17 GMT -6
Games like this one (SotN, the Sorrow ones, RotN) are scalable in difficulty depending on how long you play them, on purpose, to a pretty noticeable degree so that anyone can beat them. That's the design intention of how Iga likes to make them.
If you grind, it's "too easy", if you don't, it's considerably more of a challenge. The option is there for the player how much time they need (or just want) to invest. The great part of that is it satisfies both types, and even the person that enjoys the lesser-powered challenge can still gather everything and grind post-game if they want.
Designed to be difficult regardless of the power of your character isn't and wasn't intended to be the name of the game here.
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Post by aoanla on Jul 9, 2019 13:37:18 GMT -6
If you grind, it's "too easy", if you don't, it's considerably more of a challenge. The option is there for the player how much time they need (or just want) to invest. The great part of that is it satisfies both types, and even the person that enjoys the lesser-powered challenge can still gather everything and grind post-game if they want. Counterpoint: for a player with low-enough skill, the amount of time you need to "invest" to succeed is enough to induce tedium / make you bored of the content you're grinding. Conversely, for a high-enough skill player, all challenges could be "easy" for the first time, with no grinding at all needed. Which is why you need difficulty levels - "Easy" (which we don't have yet, and should have - Vepar & Zangetsu are too hard at Normal), "Normal", and beefed-up "Hard" and "Nightmare" modes *all unlocked from the start* so that everyone can be happy.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 9, 2019 14:03:31 GMT -6
If you grind, it's "too easy", if you don't, it's considerably more of a challenge. The option is there for the player how much time they need (or just want) to invest. The great part of that is it satisfies both types, and even the person that enjoys the lesser-powered challenge can still gather everything and grind post-game if they want. Counterpoint: for a player with low-enough skill, the amount of time you need to "invest" to succeed is enough to induce tedium / make you bored of the content you're grinding. Conversely, for a high-enough skill player, all challenges could be "easy" for the first time, with no grinding at all needed. Which is why you need difficulty levels - "Easy" (which we don't have yet, and should have - Vepar & Zangetsu are too hard at Normal), "Normal", and beefed-up "Hard" and "Nightmare" modes *all unlocked from the start* so that everyone can be happy. Alright, well this is my opinion, so keep that in mind, but a player with low-enough skill here is being unreasonable with how he's looking at the game. The grinding and powering up is what a lot of the joy is in these games, and becoming more powerful to overcome obstacles should be desirable - especially so with how attaining things is not so tedious in Ritual of the Night compared to the past titles. If they both do not want to become more skilled nor play longer to have a stronger character, then this game likely just isn't for them, and they should decide they just cannot adapt and move on. Many of us here are probably the high-enough skill level players who need no grinding and all challenges are "easy" on the first go, but that's fine. The game shouldn't punish us for knowing/understanding how to do things well, and most of us took it as a given that the game would be designed with the curve it has to overcome challenges. In my case, I didn't have trouble, but I also ate a considerable amount of food/drank potions in the middle of bosses to not have to re-fight things. I beat most bosses "on the first try", but that first try often involved healing myself several times, and free of risk since heals are instant. You have to remember that many folks who brag about taking bosses down their first time likely did the same. You can't know an attack pattern before you see it. RotN is good to go as is on difficulty levels. It has more than the standard we're used to (one, sometimes two) and with decent effort, exploit and sometimes research when necessary, I think even the newest of players will do fine. There's quite a difference with someone running around the castle trying to win with just a sword when they haven't discovered the help of such as Teps Oceus + Welcome Company yet. It's less that the game is being hard, more that they're not employing tools to trivialize what they currently think is difficult. Shards, food, familiars and stronger gear are all non-skill things that I'd say actually overpower actual skill things by a good margin, and that's fine, because it's a tenet of common Igavania design.
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Post by aoanla on Jul 9, 2019 14:43:02 GMT -6
Speaking as a player with low-enough skill that I can't beat Vepar on Normal, so the only "farming" I can do is on the Galleon - since Vepar is the "gateway boss" to the interesting part of the game... no, I'm not being unreasonable.
It's potentially the case that, with more stuff to do once you get into "the game proper", farming isn't tedious, but it certainly gets repetitive quickly if you're limited to the very small area of the Galleon to do it in.
[Also: of course the game shouldn't punish you for being experienced at games of its type - which is precisely why harder difficulties should be unlocked from the start, so you can have difficulties suited to your experience level coming in.]
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Post by anonthemouse on Jul 9, 2019 15:21:04 GMT -6
If you grind, it's "too easy", if you don't, it's considerably more of a challenge. The option is there for the player how much time they need (or just want) to invest. The great part of that is it satisfies both types, and even the person that enjoys the lesser-powered challenge can still gather everything and grind post-game if they want. Counterpoint: for a player with low-enough skill, the amount of time you need to "invest" to succeed is enough to induce tedium / make you bored of the content you're grinding. Conversely, for a high-enough skill player, all challenges could be "easy" for the first time, with no grinding at all needed. Which is why you need difficulty levels - "Easy" (which we don't have yet, and should have - Vepar & Zangetsu are too hard at Normal), "Normal", and beefed-up "Hard" and "Nightmare" modes *all unlocked from the start* so that everyone can be happy. Why a "beefed up" Hard and Nightmare mode? I find Hard to be plenty challenging (though I do wish the more dense Hard Mode enemy placements were there on Normal, just with the enemies toned down a bit). Wouldn't it make more sense to either add a "Very Hard" mode, or change Nightmare into a more difficult mode and make the option to disable levelling a separate option? If we're going to be adding a new difficulty anyway, there's no reason to take existing levels of difficulty away.
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Post by rav4ishing on Jul 9, 2019 15:55:12 GMT -6
Counterpoint: for a player with low-enough skill, the amount of time you need to "invest" to succeed is enough to induce tedium / make you bored of the content you're grinding. Conversely, for a high-enough skill player, all challenges could be "easy" for the first time, with no grinding at all needed. Which is why you need difficulty levels - "Easy" (which we don't have yet, and should have - Vepar & Zangetsu are too hard at Normal), "Normal", and beefed-up "Hard" and "Nightmare" modes *all unlocked from the start* so that everyone can be happy. Alright, well this is my opinion, so keep that in mind, but a player with low-enough skill here is being unreasonable with how he's looking at the game. The grinding and powering up is what a lot of the joy is in these games, and becoming more powerful to overcome obstacles should be desirable - especially so with how attaining things is not so tedious in Ritual of the Night compared to the past titles. If they both do not want to become more skilled nor play longer to have a stronger character, then this game likely just isn't for them, and they should decide they just cannot adapt and move on. Many of us here are probably the high-enough skill level players who need no grinding and all challenges are "easy" on the first go, but that's fine. The game shouldn't punish us for knowing/understanding how to do things well, and most of us took it as a given that the game would be designed with the curve it has to overcome challenges. In my case, I didn't have trouble, but I also ate a considerable amount of food/drank potions in the middle of bosses to not have to re-fight things. I beat most bosses "on the first try", but that first try often involved healing myself several times, and free of risk since heals are instant. You have to remember that many folks who brag about taking bosses down their first time likely did the same. You can't know an attack pattern before you see it. RotN is good to go as is on difficulty levels. It has more than the standard we're used to (one, sometimes two) and with decent effort, exploit and sometimes research when necessary, I think even the newest of players will do fine. There's quite a difference with someone running around the castle trying to win with just a sword when they haven't discovered the help of such as Teps Oceus + Welcome Company yet. It's less that the game is being hard, more that they're not employing tools to trivialize what they currently think is difficult. Shards, food, familiars and stronger gear are all non-skill things that I'd say actually overpower actual skill things by a good margin, and that's fine, because it's a tenet of common Igavania design. I agree with this. The game is flexible. If you want more of a challenge, stop using the top tier weapons and shards. There's no challenge if the majority of the enemies are killed with one hit. I also think this game is about right so far. I haven't tried hard mode just yet.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 9, 2019 16:02:19 GMT -6
aoanla I haven't tested this but it worked in the beta and I assume still applies - I was able to simply equip the gun and kill Vepar with gunshots using the ammo the boat gives you, standing/jumping in place. It doesn't get much easier than that. You can supplement those projectiles with the occasional shard as well. I think, with doing this, you would need to pay minimal attention to Vep's attacks. I'll give it a shot (ha) tonight if I can remember after work. Also, keep in mind that Vepar can still take damage when it's in the background doing the sweep laser. If you can't hit it with the gun there, the claymore works well (and the water sweep attack is very easy to dodge if you stay in the air).
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Arcueid Brunestud
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Post by Arcueid Brunestud on Jul 9, 2019 16:04:15 GMT -6
You haven't seen hard until you try NG Nightmare. I was pretty much in aoania's situation. Getting two shot by everything before I could even reach the boss.
Until I managed to farm Medusa head shards and discovered the kick jump glitch that is. Still fun as heck, like I'm playing SMT Nocturne or something with how I have to use everything to succeed.
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Post by DSLevantine on Jul 9, 2019 19:06:16 GMT -6
SotN and Bloodstained RotN are hands down the two easiest IgaVanias. But at least Bloodstained has not one, but two harder difficulties. (I don't count AxeArmour mode as a difficulty setting). The main thing that makes these two games so easy is the sheer number of broken items/abilities at your disposal. Your bound to find at least one and breeze through the rest of the game. At least Bloodstained has nothing on the level of the Alucard shield+shield rod... ROTN is easier than AOS?
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Post by steerminator on Jul 9, 2019 19:56:16 GMT -6
SotN and Bloodstained RotN are hands down the two easiest IgaVanias. But at least Bloodstained has not one, but two harder difficulties. (I don't count AxeArmour mode as a difficulty setting). The main thing that makes these two games so easy is the sheer number of broken items/abilities at your disposal. Your bound to find at least one and breeze through the rest of the game. At least Bloodstained has nothing on the level of the Alucard shield+shield rod... Or Soul Steal hahaha
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Post by Squirrel Taskmaster on Jul 9, 2019 20:02:21 GMT -6
Nightmare with forced Lv1 treated me pretty well. Also, even if the medals don't have a function, they're good for the sake of forcing you to not cheese the bosses completely with healing items.
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Post by lai on Jul 9, 2019 21:46:43 GMT -6
Bloodstained is definitely easier than AOS but (slightly) harder than SOTN. Overall I found the game pretty easy on normal even when going for boss medals while I've had a friend tell me the game is too hard. Then again I have years of experience playing IGA's games and I decided to make a nightmare boss medal guide for Bloodstained so normal difficulty is kinda a cakewalk for me.
Personal bias's aside Bloodstained is inversely difficult to the amount of time you spend grinding. If you are skilled enough you can get through with minimal grind even on nightmare NG, but there's also nothing stopping people from just chugging potions and food until they succeed.
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Post by Everett Spair on Jul 10, 2019 2:58:41 GMT -6
I guess I'm in the minority in finding this game too hard. I should note that when I played through it I just played it straight, just using what the game gave me as I went. I didn't farm for shards nor did I farm for exp. I never looked up broken equipment combinations or exploits/glitches. I would think that I played the game the way most players would. I have previously played Symphony of the Night, Aria of Sorrow, Dawn of Sorrow and Order of Ecclesia and I find RotN to be harder than SotN, AoS and DoS. I never finished OoE because that game was just too difficult.
I still think it's a good idea to add an easy difficulty for those who want that.
The only reason I was able to beat RotN is because I bought a TON of healing items and abused them like crazy in the final parts of the game. It didn't feel good to do so though.
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Post by DSLevantine on Jul 10, 2019 5:32:07 GMT -6
Whoever say AOS is harder than ROTN, may this video refresh your memory
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Post by DSLevantine on Jul 10, 2019 5:34:59 GMT -6
I guess I'm in the minority in finding this game too hard. I should note that when I played through it I just played it straight, just using what the game gave me as I went. I didn't farm for shards nor did I farm for exp. I never looked up broken equipment combinations or exploits/glitches. I would think that I played the game the way most players would. I have previously played Symphony of the Night, Aria of Sorrow, Dawn of Sorrow and Order of Ecclesia and I find RotN to be harder than SotN, AoS and DoS. I never finished OoE because that game was just too difficult.
I still think it's a good idea to add an easy difficulty for those who want that.
The only reason I was able to beat RotN is because I bought a TON of healing items and abused them like crazy in the final parts of the game. It didn't feel good to do so though.
I know you are not a fan of grinding but for OOE, you can AFK farm the attribute point to 65535 then the game will become easier
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Post by steerminator on Jul 10, 2019 6:05:48 GMT -6
I guess I'm in the minority in finding this game too hard. I should note that when I played through it I just played it straight, just using what the game gave me as I went. I didn't farm for shards nor did I farm for exp. I never looked up broken equipment combinations or exploits/glitches. I would think that I played the game the way most players would. I have previously played Symphony of the Night, Aria of Sorrow, Dawn of Sorrow and Order of Ecclesia and I find RotN to be harder than SotN, AoS and DoS. I never finished OoE because that game was just too difficult.
I still think it's a good idea to add an easy difficulty for those who want that.
The only reason I was able to beat RotN is because I bought a TON of healing items and abused them like crazy in the final parts of the game. It didn't feel good to do so though.
My philosophy generally is that there's no reason to feel bad about using whatever options the game presents to you. That's why they're there It's not like using potions is cheating. In my case, in this particular game, I didn't want to use (or didn't really think of using) potions most of the time mainly because I never needed them most of the time. But that's just me. I may have used some potions when fighting O.D. though
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 10, 2019 8:32:49 GMT -6
I didn't have time to do the Vepar test yet, but something I forgot to point out in my reply - the harder difficulties *are* available from the start with a code. I think that works out fine, since generally the people who are "core" enough to want to do that would most likely know about it. The code was given in the launch Kickstarter update, too.
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Post by aoanla on Jul 10, 2019 13:20:43 GMT -6
aoanla I haven't tested this but it worked in the beta and I assume still applies - I was able to simply equip the gun and kill Vepar with gunshots using the ammo the boat gives you, standing/jumping in place. It doesn't get much easier than that. You can supplement those projectiles with the occasional shard as well. I think, with doing this, you would need to pay minimal attention to Vep's attacks. I'll give it a shot (ha) tonight if I can remember after work. Also, keep in mind that Vepar can still take damage when it's in the background doing the sweep laser. If you can't hit it with the gun there, the claymore works well (and the water sweep attack is very easy to dodge if you stay in the air). I *think* I tried with the gun [but I didn't have any special ammo left since I used it on the dullahammers when I first met them]. I will say that I've *seen* other people managing to hit Vepar when she's in sweep water mode... but I've never managed to. I tried with various weapons, including the claymore, but I never seem to make contact. It's odd. (I don't actually have a problem dodging her water sweep, but I can't do any damage to her in that mode... it's the other mode that whittles down my health.)
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