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Post by RichterB on May 3, 2019 18:32:06 GMT -6
[Note: This is a continuation of a ShoutBox conversation with Pure Miriam and Brainiac that purifyweirdshard suggested I move to its own thread, which may be interesting for the community at large. If it belongs in another forum, please move it accordingly...]
First off, I am basing these impressions based on past IGA interviews and my personal experience either playing or viewing his games in the Castlevania series. But the conversation is basically the relationship between Castlevania during IGA's tenure and his subsequent launch of Bloodstained, and where that might go. It was suggested by Pure Miriam that Bloodstained offers IGA a lot more freedom than Castlevania, and he'll be able to create all kinds of history-bending conflicts and lore with it and make more of a "fantasy" genre series:
I don't doubt that possibility, but I wanted to respond that IGA's mindset was already seemingly leaning in that direction, from my observations.
By 2008, I think IGA was already well on his way to Bloodstained, philosophically. We know that he felt a desire to create a stable timeline and eliminate things like the N64 games and Circle of the Moon. We also know that he felt a pressure to keep to that timeline once he set it, and found that the limited wiggle room wasn't very much to his liking. Still, he made it work by focusing on unexplored territory, like Devil Forgemasters, a reincarnated teenage hero exchange-student Dracula, and a new order of vampire/monster hunters created to fill in for the absentee Belmonts. I would be curious to know if this is what fostered the gameplay experimentation with things like Hector's Innocent Devils, Soma's TSS, and Shanoa's Glyphs, or if he had a desire to create these kinds of RPG systems and the stories were just good fits to implement them. (A chicken or the egg question.) IIRC, in the "Sword vs. Whip" debate, IGA was more on the Team Sword side, and the Bloodstained game so far has not shown much advantage to the whip side of things, suggesting a further desire to move away from Castlevania staples, even when not restricted by a timeline. (Though, ironically, the whip was part of his PR persona in public.) You look at the original games he made, and only HoD, PoR, and LoI had a whip main, and in the case of PoR, that main character's status was shared with a primary magic-user. So in some combination of desire and necessity, AoS, CoD, DoS, & OoE in particular showed how he wanted to branch out the franchise. Alucard-led SotN was one thing, as an occasional alternate look at the franchise, but in the IGA-led follow-ups, monster, characters, and magic-wise, CV became more of the fantasy-based series Pure Miriam suggested even before Bloodstained.
This is from the outside looking in, mind you, but with all due respect, the timeline problem was something he put upon himself. I actually think that Castlevania can exist without a stable timeline, like Zelda had for many years (and basically still does). The story of Belmont vs. Dracula/vampires can be presented in a lot of different ways and with different gameplay approaches, both in 2D and 3D.
To me, Super Castlevania IV works fine, even if it exists as nothing more than a stand-alone retcon. Similarly, Reinhardt, Carrie, and Cornell's quests, with their emotional interludes with characters like Rosa, work well, even if excised from the timeline. Circle of the Moon is the same sort of thing, all in all...
I was talking again to an older fan of the franchise, trying to convince him to take a look at Bloodstained. He is way more specific than me about what he expects from Castlevania (or even a game theoretically taking its place), and he told me that at minimum, he needs these things: a whip that powers up, subweapons (specifically dagger, cross, holy water, stopwatch, axe), and double/triple shot items. And on the face of it, that sounds harsh. But when I think about it, when you play a Zelda game, you can at least count on Link having a sword and shield, and you can also count on Mega Man having his Mega Buster, or Mario having the ability to jump on top of enemies to defeat them. But with Castlevania, it got to be that you couldn't count on anything except atmosphere and exploration. AoS, CoD, DoS, and OoE didn't have any of the concepts I talked about baked into them as major staples of the base gameplay. There were substitutes, but they functioned very differently, so that some people picking up the game might not be able to identify it as anything other than a magic-centric Metroidvania with Gothic trappings--something a new franchise like Bloodstained has in its advantage.
Again, whether because of the timeline or gameplay concepts he wanted to experiment with, IGA seemed to feel limited by the bread-and-butter concepts of Castlevania, wanting to make it more of a Darkstalkers or JoJo's Bizarre Adventure-type thing, where the characters essentially had superpowers and anything you could imagine could find its way into Castlevania. (Judgment's bizarro plot with Aeon is another example.) The confusion in the mainstream adds credence to this alternate approach, as just the other day I saw a post related to Bloodstained that said IGA was the creator of the Castlevania franchise itself. To IGA's credit, a lot of very interesting things came of that looser interpretation. Don't get me wrong on that.
But even enjoying many of these things in the moment, by about 2005, I also felt like it started to become too amorphous and we started to lose some of the "limitations/staples" that made the Castlevania series more grounded and iconically recognizable. Characters could learn to jump so high they could fly straight off the screen, for instance. And following up Leon's 3D adventure with Hector's (with a forced connection to Dracula's Curse to sort of legitimize it) was, by and large, more of a soft-rebooted lateral move than an concentrated attempt to build on and refine things started in Lament of Innocence. (From a branding and 3D design-development perspective, that probably wasn't the wisest move overall, and I don't think Konami told him to approach Curse of Darkness that way.) But just a quick example of how this sky-is-the-limit approach has bled into Bloodstained's franchise through Inti Creates: Compare Alfred's ice spell with Sypha's. It's got that Shonen anime-overpowered feel to it...There's a little less sense of finesse and consequences in the design philosophies. And this will serve Bloodstained well, allowing for crazy things like turning the screen upside down at will and transforming into a laser, but it also continues to move it away from the everyman/everywoman feel of Castlevania's traditional heroes: i.e. "Courage, don't leave me."
I don't have any problem with this in Bloodstained, but if it had continued to be the main conversation of Castlevania, I likely would have a big problem with it (personally), and I think comparing Bloodstained's excesses to Castlevania further distorts Castelvania's own branding (whatever's left of it right now). In essence, I think Castlevania was becoming more of the new franchise that is Bloodstained under IGA, and not just because of the whole Metroidvania/Classicvania concept. The mindset about what characters can exist in that world and how powerful and versatile they can be continued to expand. So, if Bloodstained moves further in that direction, I won't be surprised. If there is a Bloodstained 2, I wouldn't be surprised to see it take the globetrotting approach IGA originally suggested it have when he approached companies prior to going to Kickstarter. In other words, if Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night is SotN 2.0, I think Bloodstained 2 will be PoR/OoE 2.0. But from there...?
Media-wise, can the series be financially separated from Castlevania any more than Castlevania can be separated from it? If Bloodstained tries to branch out into other genres or formats, will it be called "not Bloodstained" in the way that Castlevania has been called out when it's "not SotN"? As someone who wouldn't mind seeing both franchises flourish, like say how Castlevania and Ghouls N Ghosts used to live side by side, I do have some concerns about a mutually assured destruction in the long term. There's a danger that internet culture won't allow Castlevania to be reborn in anything but Bloodstained's image after Bloodstained launches (i.e. 2.5D Metroidvanias only), and Bloodstained may be forced to stay in its lane as the presumed "2.5D Gothic Metroidvania we all love and don't want to see change." Curse of the Moon might suggest otherwise...but then, it was sort of a retro-nostalgia title that had pull from other sources outside of its own inherent merits as a spinoff game.
All that said, though, I expect the series to take off more and more Castlevania-legacy limitations as it goes on, as it should. I'm not sure how that will make me feel, as Inti Creates doing things like Azure Striker Gunvolt and Dragon Marked for Death really haven't appealed to me, despite being a big Mega Man/Mega Man X fan (and a more casual Mega Man Zero/ZX fan). However, I don't get the impression that as a franchise, Bloodstained will branch out into a full 3D adventure. Conceptually, LoI and CoD give me the impression that that is an area of expertise that is not IGA's specialty, no offense. (Though I have to say that, overall, the Mercury Steam era didn't approach it any better, IMO.) And beyond that, once (and if) the market frames Bloodstained as Castlevania's full-on successor, they likely won't accept the idea of it becoming 3D, because they've (illogically) rejected the ambition of Castlevania turning 3D because, whatever it is, it can't live up to the 2D SotN.
I have some thoughts on how this might be avoided, but that's for another, much later time. Phew, this is already longer than I expected. Anyways, thoughts on where Castlevania had been headed versus where Bloodstained is, where both might go, and what the consequences of that might be for either?
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Post by mourningxsun on May 3, 2019 23:07:28 GMT -6
The way I see it, Bloodstained is his "safe" bet right now. This is getting back on the bicycle and making something that, while new, would fit in exactly with what fans of Igavanias would want.
Granted he's throwing nearly every single mechanic and subsystem that he's even had in his game into Bloodstained and then some. So really, Bloodstained is just a big guinea pig in a way. "Here's all my ideas in a game that I know will be a hit" is the vibe I get off of Iga and Bloodstained as a whole. And that's not a bad thing.
What I will expect, going forward, is the series to play things a lot less safe. I would expect future games to not have as many systems and modes as the original Ritual of the Night. Only the ones that "clicked' with players will be going forward. The biggest departure I imagine we will see is setting. RotN is a love letter to Castlevania, but that same love will likely not extend to future games. Imagine a "real" modern day Igavania. Not like AoS or DoS, but a game that takes you through cities, space, and leaves the castles behind.
Or maybe even a proper globe trotting game. OoE kind of touched on that concept, but what if it was on a bigger scale? Or what if you had to actually walk your ass to wherever it is you want to go? Lecarde Chronicles 2 of all things managed to pull it off, so it would work.
All that being said, I don't see a world where Bloodstained as a series stops being a 2D metroidvania.
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Post by Pure Miriam on May 4, 2019 2:17:18 GMT -6
RichterB! I didn't expect my comments to turn into this, haha! Thank you. Let me expand a bit what i said, and answer to what has been said here. ABOUT CASTLEVANIA TIMELINE AND IGA'S DESIRE
I'm a fan of the series for a long time and i had the opportunity to read almost all interviews about the game, specially from IGA. From what i remember to have read, IGA has said that, at first, he didn't want to publish a timeline. The timeline itself was a inner work, just to help the team, to use as a guide, but someone ended up publishing it at a magazine and at Harmony of Dissonance's official site. Due to that, it became official and he had to justify why Circle of the Moon, Castlevania Legends, both N64 games and almost all remakes/remades from the original Castlevania (Haunted Castle, Super Castlevania 4, etc) wasn't there. I remember he saying this: Circle of the Moon and both N64 games were created as spin-off by their own directors and he felt he couldn't put them on the timeline due to that, all remakes/remades of the first game were just that and the only one he really removed was Castlevania Legends, because he felt it didn't fit with the direction he wanted to follow. (For instance, the game implies that Trevor is the son of Alucard and Sonia). I remember that, when asked if he regretted anything on his Castlevania career, he said that he regretted to have the timeline published, because that created a problem they couldn't get out of it. The timeline was restricting their creativity and he had to get rid of some "rules" to create more games. The rule that Dracula shows up every 100 years, for instance, was rewritten as "Dracula shows up everytime humanity wants , or when someone tries to summon him AND every 100 years". ABOUT CASTLEVANIA MAGIC / POWER SYSTEMS
IGA also said before that he usually creates the gameplay first (even before the main character), and then creates a plot around it to wrap things up. He claimed absolutely all Castlevanias under his direction was made this way with two exceptions: Lament of Innocence, whose he wanted to tell the tale of the Belmont's and Dracula's first struggle, so he made the plot first, and Order of Ecclesia, where he decided to create the first female lead of his games on Castlevania, due to fan request, and thus he created the character first before everything else. CASTLEVANIA MOVING ON
I agree with you when you say that it seems IGA wanted to march on with the series and do something different with it, but was restricted. Castlevania was recognizable by simple elemnts and such elements changed wildly under IGA direction. Let's remind ourselves of Dawn of Sorrow anime intro. If you show that to anyone that never played a IGA Castlevania, absolutely no one would say it is: Exaggerated powers, anime-esque characters and such. Things that didn't below originally to Castlevania, but was inserted there by IGA. THE PATH OF BLOODSTAINED
I understand your concern about Bloodstained having to follow Castlevania formula, a formula that Castlevania itself was starting to distort itself. What i do believe is that, IF Bloodstained turns into a franchise, it will mostly follow the 2.5D Metroidvania / Igavania approach because that's what everyone expects from it. It will only depart from that when said formula REALLY starts to decay, financially speaking. But where the game will go from here, is anyone's guess. I tend to believe that a sucessfull formula will be repeated on and on until starts to decay, and i have a strong feeling that, if Bloodstained 2 came into existing, it will be another 2.5D Igavania game on a Castle-like scenaro with a stylish character using a magic / power system that is different from Bloodstained 1. It's the easiest to do and if people who bought and played Bloodstained 1 like the game and if that gave profit, the formula will be repeated for 2. So, i agree with mourningxsun when he said that he doesn't see room for a Bloodstained outside 2.5D Igavania formula. I don't either, at least not for now. Where we go from there? I can't say. I just know that, when asked about a franchise at one of his interviews, i remember IGA saying "we plan to make at least TWO MORE games". If he was talking about Curse of the Moon (not released at the time) and something else, or if he was talking about a Bloodstained 2 and 3...only time will tell.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 3:43:33 GMT -6
Imagine a "real" modern day Igavania. Not like AoS or DoS, but a game that takes you through cities, space, and leaves the castles behind. The idea of having a Metroidvania adventure through a series of relatively mundane, ordinary towns and cities honestly sounds pretty novel, though it would probably come with some unique design challenges (ie. making sure the environments have enough verticality). Now that I think about it, I'm a little surprised that more action-adventure games and RPGs aren't taking advantage of such an untapped creative vein. |
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Post by hyugakojiro on May 4, 2019 5:26:10 GMT -6
Imagine a "real" modern day Igavania. Not like AoS or DoS, but a game that takes you through cities, space, and leaves the castles behind. The idea of having a Metroidvania adventure through a series of relatively mundane, ordinary towns and cities honestly sounds pretty novel, though it would probably come with some unique design challenges (ie. making sure the environments have enough verticality). Now that I think about it, I'm a little surprised that more action-adventure games and RPGs aren't taking advantage of such an untapped creative vein. Nier Automata is a good example of this and I think the closest representation of what a modern day 3D Igavania game could look like. I honestly think IGA is ready for that challenge but he needs to secure a large amount of resources to pull it off successfully. |
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Post by BloodyTears92 on May 4, 2019 8:41:56 GMT -6
Gotta say your posts are good reads mate.
On the subject, at least for now I feel 99% sure a theoretical Bloodstained 2 would be a 2.5D IGAvania game. It'd be suicide to get back on his feet with a return to form then utterly break from his most beloved formula for the sequel.
As for where that sequel would go? I think it depends a great deal on whether Miriam herself becomes integral to the franchise's identity. Castlevania had an advantage here with its Jojo-esque lineage of heroes battling evil across history. BS doesnt have that, it has Miriam. So if Miriam turns into a beloved character...would fans demand she be the lead from then on? If IGA decided Bloodstained 2 should be about a totally different character in a totally different time period, would people accept it not being Miriam? And even if we did, like, Miriam's kids, isnt that too similar to the Belmonts with Miriam being the Matriarch of a demon slaying family line?
As for Castlevania? I dont have a clue. Between Smash Ultimate and Netflix its obvious people still love the series and want it back, but do we want modern, Metal Gear Survive Konami to bother? I dont, quite frankly. I can fondly remember OoE as the last golden memory of a great franchise.
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Post by RichterB on May 4, 2019 10:17:53 GMT -6
I'm a fan of the series for a long time and i had the opportunity to read almost all interviews about the game, specially from IGA. From what i remember to have read, IGA has said that, at first, he didn't want to publish a timeline. The timeline itself was a inner work, just to help the team, to use as a guide, but someone ended up publishing it at a magazine and at Harmony of Dissonance's official site. Due to that, it became official and he had to justify why Circle of the Moon, Castlevania Legends, both N64 games and almost all remakes/remades from the original Castlevania (Haunted Castle, Super Castlevania 4, etc) wasn't there. I remember he saying this: Circle of the Moon and both N64 games were created as spin-off by their own directors and he felt he couldn't put them on the timeline due to that, all remakes/remades of the first game were just that and the only one he really removed was Castlevania Legends, because he felt it didn't fit with the direction he wanted to follow. (For instance, the game implies that Trevor is the son of Alucard and Sonia). I appreciated the various clarifications and examples throughout your reply. In particular, the DoS video hit home on a lot of what I was getting at. But regarding IGA's interview comments about N64 "spin-off" status. That is a gray area. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I am gradually putting together a deep dive into the development of the N64 titles and the status of Castlevania in 1999 that led up to their release. In my research, I found some interesting quotes.
Here's the collated info from the second paragraph in my slow-going but ongoing first draft of said article:
Now maybe we're dealing with confusion in translation or some sort of misunderstood business semantics, but otherwise, the N64 games being nothing more than a spin-off seems like it might be revisionist history. Especially since, ironically, Symphony of the Night was deemed a spin off. It could be retroactive PR spin on the part of IGA or on the behalf of the N64 games' creators via IGA, who perhaps felt some sort of shame about their controversial legacy. (I hope not.) But I have not found any information on that front, only what I have above.
...Granted he's throwing nearly every single mechanic and subsystem that he's even had in his game into Bloodstained and then some. So really, Bloodstained is just a big guinea pig in a way. "Here's all my ideas in a game that I know will be a hit" is the vibe I get off of Iga and Bloodstained as a whole. And that's not a bad thing. ...Imagine a "real" modern day Igavania. Not like AoS or DoS, but a game that takes you through cities, space, and leaves the castles behind. Or maybe even a proper globe trotting game. OoE kind of touched on that concept, but what if it was on a bigger scale? Or what if you had to actually walk your ass to wherever it is you want to go? Lecarde Chronicles 2 of all things managed to pull it off, so it would work... "Through space"?! As in, off Earth, right? See, that's the kind of stuff I'm a bit wary of, that I wouldn't consider genre appropriate, yet I wouldn't put it past IGA, and it's the kind of thing that would proclaim Bloodstained's new IP status. We have to remember that in the middle of Castlevania's 2000s run, IGA did the sci-fi action game Nano Breaker, and it looks from the new trailer like we're getting some sci-fi-ish magic guns.
Now, Lecarde Chronicles 2, from everything I've seen of it, is amazing, and just the kind of Castlevania game I would have wanted in the mix during the 2005-2008 period of Castlevania. If Bloodstained goes that route next time, I'd likely be on board for that.
BloodyTears92 , thanks for the props! I don't know that IGA's committed to Miriam as the main character going forward. If so, he might have her back for one more game. But I think he wants to turn it into an organization-based thing, like the Brotherhood of Light or the Order of Ecclesia. Or else have rogue characters like Zangetsu. His interest in mixing up basic game mechanics sort of leads to different characters appearing as the leads. |
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Post by BloodyTears92 on May 4, 2019 18:55:48 GMT -6
Oh, I wasnt exactly meaning if IGA wanted to focus entirely on Miriam, moreso the fans. People love getting attatched to characters after all, good or ill.
Just as an example lets look at the new Men in Black film. People were clearly getting tired of the franchise and of constantly bringing back the same two characters (as far as I could tell back when MIB3 was new) and yet now that the franchise has finally broken away from K and J, and with a beloved duo in Hemsworth and Thompson from Thor 3, all you see are "Where are K and J? Its not MIB without Jones and Smith!"
That's more what Im referring to, that IGA will actively want to move on from Miriam after this game but the fans might get upset if the character they just got attached to is not the star going forward.
Highlander was another franchise I truly believe hamstrung itself by insisting on keeping the same main character. And by every film after the first being terrible. But I digress. You have this AMAZING premise of immortals through history and yet we always follow Connor Macleod. Even the TV series, which I liked, felt the need to tie the new main character to Connor anyway. It never panned out but I legit tried writing a story set in the Highlander-verse with a totally different set of characters because of how much potential I saw in the premise that barely ever got put to use.
Im rambling a bit but my point is I agree that sequels should have other protagonists, I just worry how that might pan out is all.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2019 1:15:44 GMT -6
If Bloodstained 2 is set in 1999, 20XX, etc., I wonder if they might try and use something like cryo-stasis to justify Miriam appearing. I know the goal of the game is to break her curse and get rid of the magi-crystals, but it seems like cryo-stasis would be something the magi-crystals could do if she wasn't entirely successful in her quest.
This isn't to say I think this should happen; I more or less agree with the sentiment that a lot of good can come from a new protagonist. I'm just thinking of what might be possible. Of course, even if they do bring her back, she might not necessarily be the main character again. She could be a grizzled mentor, which would be pretty cool.
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Post by Pure Miriam on May 5, 2019 1:29:49 GMT -6
RichterB That's interesting. I do knew that SOTN was made as a side-story that became way bigger than they planned, but not that they were thinking to follow N64 way. Well, that interview i read was made during Harmony of Dissonance (2002), so, maybe a information recton indeed happened there.
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Post by Brainiac on May 6, 2019 7:42:19 GMT -6
But when I think about it, when you play a Zelda game, you can at least count on Link having a sword and shield, and you can also count on Mega Man having his Mega Buster, or Mario having the ability to jump on top of enemies to defeat them. Not in the original non-Super variety. ALL IS LIES!
Anyways, like I said, I think there's room for both and Castlevania may very well be having a revival between Smash Ultimate, the Netflix series, Grimoire of Souls, Requiem, the Anniversary Collection, and the rumored "Bloodstained-killer" that Konami is rumored to have (but there's a ton of salt with that in multiple senses). As I said in the Shoutbox, I think Castlevania is likely to get a renaissance in part due to Bloodstained's presence, just as Mighty No. 9 led to Mega Man 11 and The Last Airbender film led to the creation of The Legend of Korra, among many others. Granted, it's a bit more indirect and Bloodstained isn't about to be as bad as the other examples. This is less about wiping away a "stain" as it is having worthy competition to inspire all to do better.
Honestly though, I think a narrow definition of what IS Castlevania isn't sensible. Given all the portmanteaus used for the series (Classicvania, Metroidvania, 3Dvania, God of Vania, etc.), it's obvious there are a lot of different styles in this single series. It's really quite impressive since the NES trilogy is often held up as showing the dangers of straying from formula (Simon's Quest, the American SMB2, and The Adventure of Link are typically the big remembered examples of this) but IGA's influence on Symphony led to something new but still (in my opinion) definitively Castlevania and the series subsequently had a multitude of styles in both mainline titles and side stories.
Personally, I look forward to whatever comes and indeed I hope IGA can take advantage of having a much more open reality/timeline to play with. Hopefully it doesn't turn out to be one of those cases where the limitations are what allow for the best artistic work.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on May 6, 2019 8:40:49 GMT -6
I was talking again to an older fan of the franchise, trying to convince him to take a look at Bloodstained. He is way more specific than me about what he expects from Castlevania (or even a game theoretically taking its place), and he told me that at minimum, he needs these things: a whip that powers up, subweapons (specifically dagger, cross, holy water, stopwatch, axe), and double/triple shot items. And on the face of it, that sounds harsh. But when I think about it, when you play a Zelda game, you can at least count on Link having a sword and shield, and you can also count on Mega Man having his Mega Buster, or Mario having the ability to jump on top of enemies to defeat them. But with Castlevania, it got to be that you couldn't count on anything except atmosphere and exploration. AoS, CoD, DoS, and OoE didn't have any of the concepts I talked about baked into them as major staples of the base gameplay. There were substitutes, but they functioned very differently, so that some people picking up the game might not be able to identify it as anything other than a magic-centric Metroidvania with Gothic trappings--something a new franchise like Bloodstained has in its advantage. By this description, the "older fan" in question would find Curse of the Moon unacceptable, which is the finest evidence that his criteria is a bit absurd. That game is, by all accounts core and casual and including my own, about as "classic Castlevania" as it can be without being outright theft, with some saying that it is indeed that; a facsimile. I've seen a Japanese fan even that was voicing a hurt they felt that IGA basically lifted and stole the spirit of the games. That is after all a concern and a factor of this formula to consider - how much can/should Bloodstained be Castlevania, and is it already far enough or too far? If the whip was a series focus, and rested for several frames completely horizontal on attacks, and we had skeletons, movie monsters, He-Man/Conan-inspired protagonists and all of these sorts of things which are the deepest desires of the most rigid classicvania fans, it would neither be prudent or even indeed to IGA's strengths/desire to do. That's "old Castlevania", for sure, but expecting and wanting anything past what Curse of the Moon achieved is on Konami's plate and not ours - as it should be. That legacy needs it space, both for ethics and respect as well as the success and personal fulillment of all artistic talent involved. I don't mean to say that's what you were wanting/expecting specifically, though to push a few related points, Iga has been clear about his regret toward defining that timeline. It stirred up quite a bit more in the fan community than he would have liked to see, and I think that was likely his issue with it above feeling limited in what he could do in it. After all, there were yet more games he was not able to do before he left (chiefly 1999 Demon War). On Bloodstained moving away from being tied to the real world and not historically anchored, I'd say you can expect, and we already have, quite the opposite. Iga loves tying in real world events and times that border on fantastical somehow and making them plot points. Previously it's been actual wars and eclipses, prophecies and religion etc, and in Bloodstained's case it is a historic volcanic eruption that (at the time) inexplicably darkened the sky for some time with mysterious deaths, the Industrial Revolution of England, inspirations of as real as alchemy ever was, and related to that of course the Ars Goetia, book of Enoch, Liber Loagaeth and so on. The use of real things is here to stay (or real world things that wanted to be real at least!), just with the magic and fantastical spin on them. I don't think we should expect a diverging timeline where the world changes, but instead as Castlevania mostly was - heroes and villains generally behind the scenes doing incredible things that tie into or from a fantastical view explain the course of history. JoJo's itself from what I've seen of it is mostly like that. It's our world and follows real history, just with a lot of bizarre stuff going on that's written atop it. I think that's great and makes things more relatable - it's easier to identify with the characters, motivations and all context while the art/writing is able to do whatever it wants. Anyway, to bring this back around, I believe that Bloodstained is on track to and should be inspired of and a relative to Castlevania, but likely not much more so than it already is for several reasons. If what we've already seen and been given isn't "Castlevania" enough for someone, the fault of that and burden of it I would say is not on the people making it, but rather the responsibility should rest with Castlevania itself. The purist would not be sated regardless, as it is. |
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BloodyTears92
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Post by BloodyTears92 on May 6, 2019 9:14:09 GMT -6
I didnt even think about that but you're right, as much as CotM feels like its lawsuit worthy even that wouldnt sate by those standards since it lacks the upgrading whip, specific subweapons and muti shot upgrades.
I do wonder how this will go. I cant really even guess how the game would diverge further from Castlevania until we see where this goes since the story and gameplay are entirely based around the Crystal alchemy curse and, assuming Gebel dies, Miriam would end the game as the only wielder of that power assuming she doesnt also get cured somehow or maybe even die of it herself (I REALLY doubt that, even Ecclesia's ending was unusually depressing for an IGA game and Miriam dying would be even worse than Shanoa being alone, heartbroken and forgotten by history).
The core gameplay is founded on a Soma/Shanoa style power system and a sequel would have to have massive mechanical changes if it had a new protagonist without the Shardbinder powers.
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Post by rav4ishing on May 6, 2019 12:09:05 GMT -6
One thought just crossed my mind. Iga has the advantage of time passed. It's been so long since OoE. Today, if he gave us SotN with a new story, different map, slightly upgraded graphics and some tweaks to weapons, we'd probably have so much fun with it because it's been so long. I think had Bloodstained been released let's say a year after OoE or PoR, it may have been labeled as just a "how about me" copy that is trying to cash in on the craze.
What do you guys think?
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2019 23:56:41 GMT -6
rav4ishing That's a difficult question. Since we haven't played Bloodstained yet, we don't know how good it is on its own merits. If it turns out to be one of the best entries in the genre, then I think the strong critical reception probably would have shone through. But if it does turn out to be just decent, then I think you're right; I don't think it would be remembered very well outside of enthusiast circles, similar to how Yooka-Laylee would be regarded if it came out in the early 2000s. Just like, "eh, another one of these? I guess it's fine." Questions like these really remind me of how spoiled we were in the 2000s. That decade gave us, like, five whole Metroids, fifty Castlevanias, a million Mega Man spin-offs... The star burnt brilliantly, and then it burnt out.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on May 7, 2019 0:51:10 GMT -6
Order of Ecclesia, amazing game that it was, was received itself largely as "Eh? Another one of these? Hasn't this niche genre been done to death now?" and the sales reflected that attitude.
So in that scenario, it may not have mattered how good Bloodstained was if it immediately followed. At least not for another several years like how it took wider audiences of people to appreciate OoE. The hole is very much felt now, but we (and many indie developers) are now getting to filling it.
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Post by Pure Miriam on May 7, 2019 1:53:27 GMT -6
I think we can see that, all in all, with Bloodstained, IGA tried to mix the nostalgic feeling of his Castlevanias with something new to not be seen as a carbon copy, and you can see that in small and big details. From how Miriam uses the whip, to expy of enemies, apparent absence of vampires (if they exist, they don't seem to be relevant) and so on. I do agree that IGA loves to tie events of his games to the real world, and so, my idea of shiffting from that may not happen.
About the core of Miriam powers be her Shardbinder ability, that is a upgraded version of Soul Dominance from Soma, i do believe that, if exists a Bloodstained 2, it will have a completely different magical / skill / ability system because IGA tried to do that in all his Igavania games. Sometimes, the systems were close to each other but they never was the same thing (with the sole exception being the Sorrow series for using the same protagonist).
Also, as a side note: IGA said on interviews, if i'm not mistaken, that he has the whole plan (plot, system, etc) for 1999 Demon Castle War game, but he didn't feel like talking about it, because if some other director takes Castlevania's timeline to work on it, he felt he would do a disservice by talking about his plans. That could either make said director to step away as much from it, or use it completely, limiting this own director's creativity.
Side note 2: When Mercury Steam's director was asked why he didn't use Castlevania's stabilished timeline on his games, he said that such timeline was "IGA's work, IGA's child" and he felt it would be wrong to mess up with that.
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Post by ReySol on May 7, 2019 2:32:00 GMT -6
I see Blodstained as a very faithful continuation of Castlevania series, with the only missing ingredient being Dracula. The legend of Dracula was very important part of the essence of Castlevania and it was one of the reasons I liked it so much. It fascinates me, and also the castle makes sense to be there. The idea of going through his castle was very exciting. This is the thing I will miss the most. Yes, we have a castle now again, but it makes less sense and is less exciting. As for weapons, skills etc. I really don’t mind which one is it, IGA always made it feel great. Other main ingredients are there which are excellent music (Yamane) and art (Ayami Kojima as a bonus art is fantastic, I can’t wait to see it). I am not sure how much new things Bloodstained will bring compared to recent Igavanias, if it will be regarded as one more of those. For me l, as CV and Igavania fan, I loved each entry on GBA and DS, all of them brought something new for me. Bloodstained will definitely be played by more people than previous entries because it will be on PC and consoles. I hope IGA will be able to continue working with these kind of games, and I don’t care if it is Bloodstained 2 or completely new thing. I would prefer Castlevania, because of Dracula lore, but it is impossible if Konami does not contract IGA for this in the future. The good thing is that IGA has more control and possibilities now. I wish he would make more 2D sprite games. Curse of the moon was great and it doesn’t seem that it is too expensive as a project. I prefer quality over quantity (I don’t need the biggest castle and 100 extra modes). For the next game, I do hope that the main character is male. Zangetsu is so cool! Miriam could become the big boss and have her castle by then. I can’t wait to see what Bloodstained will bring and also what comes next!
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Post by RichterB on May 9, 2019 18:27:33 GMT -6
A lot great posts here. I just wanted to share a few more thoughts... First, an ironic quote from IGA about his stance on magic systems with Castlevania that I ran across again: From a GameSpot 2002 TGS interview: I forgot about this quote that I brought up last year, but it caught me off guard again. So, the magic book system fit with Sypha and the way it linked to subweapons links it back to Castlevania. I get that much. But the magic cards were already established by Castlevania 64's Moon and Sun Cards, and even if you disregard those, the magic cards are no more out there than all the magic relics in Symphony of the Night and the subsequent Tactical Soul System, which is really just a streamlined and expanded version of the Dual Set-Up System. And in that case, it becomes not a supplementary idea, but the dominant core mechanic, growing and growing, which goes against what he was saying a bit, I feel. It speaks to a changing philosophy about core mechanics, perhaps.
Now, the "older fan" in question did, in fact, not accept Curse of the Moon. Though the reason was primarily that it was a 8-bit-ish retro game, which he felt was a waste of time. (Even so, he did admit some of the ideas looked cool.) He's basically in that camp that has decided that God of War replaced Castlevania, but again, he didn't like Lords of Shadow, so this just gets more confusing. The last Castlevania game he enjoyed was Lament of Innocence. All of this seems a bit contradictory... Then again, Lament did have a whip-wielding Belmont with classic subweapons, and had a lot of action, even if it was rather repetitive.
My own feelings about Curse of the Moon are complicated. I loved playing it--it put a huge smile on my face--but I couldn't shake the feeling that it was sort of a Dracula's Curse Lite. It'd take a lot of words to unpack that, and a lot of soul searching to articulate it, and I don't want to do that at this time. I think it comes down to that awkward place of it being both an homage and a new franchise. But I will say this, the Valefor fight, and how it ends with the gold vanishing to reveal all those bones, is the standout moment in the game for me.
While I'm sure the game mechanics and settings will get wilder, I do believe that there will still be some connection to real events. That does seem to be something IGA is interested in, and I salute that. But I'm not sure how vital that will be to how things unfold. I mean, Portrait of Ruin was during World War II, but it didn't seem to play into the aesthetic or game design much. (Even Bloodlines, with its World War I setting, gave us soldier skeletons and a munitions factory.)
One last thing that seems absent, thematically, from Bloodstained, and it's too soon to fully tell, is the clear good vs. evil story. Dracula was brought up, but on the other end of that is the concept of people strengthened by faith facing off against evil. The Alchemist's Guild is sort of more of a nebulous idea. Dominique offers perhaps a glimpse of things to come...but I'm convinced Alfred will be the secret last boss.  In Castlevania, you had this interesting dynamic you don't see a lot of these days, for various reasons, where it's like holy conviction versus evil nihilism. i.e. The Church is at war with Dracula. They took in and helped raise Sypha Belnades after her people we persecuted by villagers, and Sypha is now their vampire-killing agent. And Trevor Belmont is also recruited by the Church, uses blessed relics like holy water, the cross, and rosary against evil, and his very first in-game introduction in Castlevania III is praying in front of a cross. That's not to say there haven't been those led astray by Dracula, but the narrative has this theme of chosen and happenstance agents of the divine vs. evil. In Castlevania 64, Reinhardt Schneider, from a branch of the Belmont bloodline, starts his adventure by making the sign of the cross and saying "Courage don't leave me," and is later seen stopping the vampire-cursed Rosa from killing herself, telling her "Whatever you are, God forbids suicide." And then, late in the game, when Rosa sacrifices herself to save Reinhardt, he prays over her, again making the sign of the cross, saying "God of compassion, forgive her. Father, forgive us our sins and lead us into eternal joy." And then places a crucifix in her hands as she passes away. Meanwhile, Richter Belmont's 1993 ending theme is "March of the Holy Man," and Christopher Belmont's 1989 main theme is "Battle of the Holy," and Christopher can use a crucifix for invulnerability in The Adventure GB. Also, Tera in Rondo says "Go with God's protection." or "I know God is watching over you." I just think there is an overarching theme in Castlevania that gives its struggle some gravitas.
I'm not saying Bloodstained has to have it, and at the same time, it speaks to Bloodstained's own identity that will be expanded upon.
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Post by BloodyTears92 on May 9, 2019 19:07:37 GMT -6
I think, speaking in general terms, that has a lot to do with the fact that a classic "good vs. evil" story is considered 'not enough' these days, having an irredeemably evil villain and an unwaveringly good hero is considered boring at best, lazy at worst. Just looking at television and movies, you see popular media like Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones where almost nobody is classically good or evil. Breaking Bad is, as much as Ive heard having not seen it, an entire cast of people where the protagonist is only the hero because his opponents are even worse.
Even the MCU, people prop up the heroes and especially the villains who have more gray and complex morals like Thanos or Killmonger. The best Ive seen from truly evil villains is with ones like Dio from Jojo or Red Skull from Captain America, where the character is so charismatic and entertaining nobody cares they arent very complicated.
So I think thats why elements like god and satan are left out here, good vs evil just bores people these days.
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