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Post by illasera on Jan 16, 2019 9:38:59 GMT -6
Most of these aren't accurate. - No GoG support for CoTM that was bundled in a campaign to a DRM free product. - Dropped platforms as such : Linux / Mac / PS vita / Wii U (succeeded by Switch)- No refunds offered for Mac/Linux. - This is a subjective observation. You can talk to them every day. - No release date after 3.5 years. - Unanswered speculations as to DRM as the reason for dropped PC platforms. Someone corrected me earlier for not capitalizing the "O" in GOG but I'll spare you that one. Thank you.
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Post by Question on Jan 16, 2019 10:16:23 GMT -6
Regarding the refund swap suggestion:
It's an interesting idea, but ultimately I don't know that it would be feasible.While it sounds simple, the backer opt-in / new player acquisition would have to be significant to have any impact beyond a handful of backers. That would require a significant marketing effort on top of the resources for Fangamer to make the actual swaps.
I will be sure to mention it to the team (as I do with all of the suggestions from the forums), but it isn't something I can see getting traction.
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Post by Question on Jan 16, 2019 11:02:29 GMT -6
1. There are logistical reasons selling backer tiers through Fangamer's site won't work. No one should expect any more explanation than that. It was a good idea, and I like that the community was able to produce such a great suggestion. Thanks, Scars Unseen 2. Fangamer's hands sound tied. Cale said, "the argument "This was promised by the previous guys, not us." is taking it's toll. No one else finds this discouraging that there is very little accountability?" Yeah, man. I do find it discouraging. I also find it discouraging that they won't just come out an say they can't discern Linux backers apart from other Steam backers. I also find that although I like Question, I find it disappointing that backers are the ones here trying to reason with rightfully dissatisfied backers more than he or his company on these forums. I made a different post about the idea of doing a refund swap above. I don't think we've ever made the argument 'this was promised by the previous guys". For practical purposes, the 'project' is the project and we aren't differentiating between the team makeup from then to now (with a couple Curse exceptions due to Inti being the developer/publisher on that project). Yes, there is an issue in the surveys with discerning backers who want mac/linux from PC users, but while it may be a contributing factor, it's not the main one. That's why I don't bring it up in our statements. It's also an issue that likely has workarounds that could be figured out if needed. I believe I've been straightforward in saying that if we want to get the game to release at all, we need to be realistic about what it will take to get there. There is not an endless financial stream to fund another year or two of development and we want to release the game. As for my presence on the forums, I don't know that my posts do much to change anyone's minds. More often than not, when I come in and don't have responses that people want to hear that it serves only to stir things up. I do read everything that happens here and report back to the team. I apologize for not diving into more forum conversations. For the record, the forum belongs to the fans and is run by the fans. We do not require the mods to support or defend us in any way. I appreciate (and hope everyone else does as well) the work that Mike and the rest of the mods have done in keeping things constructive in light of a bad situation, especially when I know that many of them are just as upset about the refund policy as the rest of you.
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Post by illasera on Jan 16, 2019 12:39:11 GMT -6
Yes, there is an issue in the surveys with discerning backers who want mac/linux from PC users, but while it may be a contributing factor, it's not the main one. That's why I don't bring it up in our statements. It's also an issue that likely has workarounds that could be figured out if needed. I believe I've been straightforward in saying that if we want to get the game to release at all, we need to be realistic about what it will take to get there. There is not an endless financial stream to fund another year or two of development and we want to release the game.
Then let's make it clear, The developers you are working with, Went to kickstarter, A crowd-funding platform, As the name suggests. Fueled by the crowd, Nobody is telling you to open your books and report assets and commodities; (Without providing any numbers and specificities, The reasons are to be given).
But at this point, I would say, You are pretty much obliged to provide with transparency to your investors as to the reason you won't provide with refunds With the case being , 505-games as the developers PR dept.
*You already provided a reason earlier, You ran out of backers revenue stream, its already spent, I have no idea why you are making it vague again. (If there are additional reasons , the INVESTORS, should know about them).
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Post by clivethebarker on Jan 16, 2019 14:35:25 GMT -6
Regarding the refund swap suggestion: It's an interesting idea, but ultimately I don't know that it would be feasible.While it sounds simple, the backer opt-in / new player acquisition would have to be significant to have any impact beyond a handful of backers. That would require a significant marketing effort on top of the resources for Fangamer to make the actual swaps. I will be sure to mention it to the team (as I do with all of the suggestions from the forums), but it isn't something I can see getting traction. 1. There are logistical reasons selling backer tiers through Fangamer's site won't work. No one should expect any more explanation than that. It was a good idea, and I like that the community was able to produce such a great suggestion. Thanks, Scars Unseen 2. Fangamer's hands sound tied. Cale said, "the argument "This was promised by the previous guys, not us." is taking it's toll. No one else finds this discouraging that there is very little accountability?" Yeah, man. I do find it discouraging. I also find it discouraging that they won't just come out an say they can't discern Linux backers apart from other Steam backers. I also find that although I like Question, I find it disappointing that backers are the ones here trying to reason with rightfully dissatisfied backers more than he or his company on these forums. I made a different post about the idea of doing a refund swap above. I don't think we've ever made the argument 'this was promised by the previous guys". For practical purposes, the 'project' is the project and we aren't differentiating between the team makeup from then to now (with a couple Curse exceptions due to Inti being the developer/publisher on that project). Yes, there is an issue in the surveys with discerning backers who want mac/linux from PC users, but while it may be a contributing factor, it's not the main one. That's why I don't bring it up in our statements. It's also an issue that likely has workarounds that could be figured out if needed. I believe I've been straightforward in saying that if we want to get the game to release at all, we need to be realistic about what it will take to get there. There is not an endless financial stream to fund another year or two of development and we want to release the game. As for my presence on the forums, I don't know that my posts do much to change anyone's minds. More often than not, when I come in and don't have responses that people want to hear that it serves only to stir things up. I do read everything that happens here and report back to the team. I apologize for not diving into more forum conversations. For the record, the forum belongs to the fans and is run by the fans. We do not require the mods to support or defend us in any way. I appreciate (and hope everyone else does as well) the work that Mike and the rest of the mods have done in keeping things constructive in light of a bad situation, especially when I know that many of them are just as upset about the refund policy as the rest of you.
It stirs things up because the fact remains that the project screwed Linux/Mac backers and will not give any indiciation that Question 505/IGA/whomever else intends to make things right for these backers like myself. The draught of content in updates and obstinancy on the release date hasn't helped backer sentinment either. It's really messed up when XombieMike and purifyweirdshard do five times the work easily to communicate and help than the dev spokesperson(s). They really seems to give a damn about the doing the right thing, unlike 505.
Why can't you do anything to give backers what they pledged money for in good faith? Even a better timeline of when the problem was found would be better than this current state of affairs.
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Post by gunlord500 on Jan 16, 2019 14:41:59 GMT -6
Regarding the refund swap suggestion: It's an interesting idea, but ultimately I don't know that it would be feasible.While it sounds simple, the backer opt-in / new player acquisition would have to be significant to have any impact beyond a handful of backers. That would require a significant marketing effort on top of the resources for Fangamer to make the actual swaps. I will be sure to mention it to the team (as I do with all of the suggestions from the forums), but it isn't something I can see getting traction. I made a different post about the idea of doing a refund swap above. I don't think we've ever made the argument 'this was promised by the previous guys". For practical purposes, the 'project' is the project and we aren't differentiating between the team makeup from then to now (with a couple Curse exceptions due to Inti being the developer/publisher on that project). Yes, there is an issue in the surveys with discerning backers who want mac/linux from PC users, but while it may be a contributing factor, it's not the main one. That's why I don't bring it up in our statements. It's also an issue that likely has workarounds that could be figured out if needed. I believe I've been straightforward in saying that if we want to get the game to release at all, we need to be realistic about what it will take to get there. There is not an endless financial stream to fund another year or two of development and we want to release the game. As for my presence on the forums, I don't know that my posts do much to change anyone's minds. More often than not, when I come in and don't have responses that people want to hear that it serves only to stir things up. I do read everything that happens here and report back to the team. I apologize for not diving into more forum conversations. For the record, the forum belongs to the fans and is run by the fans. We do not require the mods to support or defend us in any way. I appreciate (and hope everyone else does as well) the work that Mike and the rest of the mods have done in keeping things constructive in light of a bad situation, especially when I know that many of them are just as upset about the refund policy as the rest of you.
It stirs things up because the fact remains that the project screwed Linux/Mac backers and will not give any indiciation that Question 505/IGA/whomever else intends to make things right for these backers like myself. The draught of content in updates and obstinancy on the release date hasn't helped backer sentinment either. It's really messed up when XombieMike and purifyweirdshard do five times the work easily to communicate and help than the dev spokesperson(s). They really seems to give a damn about the doing the right thing, unlike 505.
Why can't you do anything to give backers what they pledged money for in good faith? Even a better timeline of when the problem was found would be better than this current state of affairs.
I agree that Xombiemike and Purify are really going out of their way to speak up for the community. It's one of the many reasons I'm proud to call myself their colleague. However, keep in mind that Question might not necessarily know or be permitted to give the answers to these either. He's a community management liaison--I don't think he knows much about the specifics of programming (and Angel's more on the business/licensing side of things, too). Question would have to ask the devs themselves what kind of programming issues they ran into, and then pass tat answer on to us, and the devs may not be willing to answer if they don't want to divulge any technical aspects about the project. So let's not be too harsh on Question either. I can't speak for 505 itself, and I understand why folks are suspicious of them, but as someone who spends a lot of time "behind the scenes," I know for a fact Question is doing his best to advocate for us, even if he can't talk publicly about that sort of advocacy.
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Post by browren on Jan 16, 2019 15:08:19 GMT -6
Yes, there is an issue in the surveys with discerning backers who want mac/linux from PC users, but while it may be a contributing factor, it's not the main one. That's why I don't bring it up in our statements. It's also an issue that likely has workarounds that could be figured out if needed. I believe I've been straightforward in saying that if we want to get the game to release at all, we need to be realistic about what it will take to get there. There is not an endless financial stream to fund another year or two of development and we want to release the game. Why would it take "another year or two of development" to release a game you've been working on for years already, on two platforms directly supported by the engine you're using? All it SHOULD be is selecting Linux in UE4's File->Package menu. Why can't you just say what the "main factor" is and be done with all this manager-speak talking around the issue? You don't have a refund policy, you have a no-refund policy, and Fangamer sent people to this official board instead of giving anyone a way to talk to 505 directly. Sending us all to a "fan board" is about as unprofessional as suggesting Twitter as a support system. I don't know if that was Fangamer's idea or 505s, but management owes XombieMike (who has done a fine job of keeping his board afloat in 505's self-inflicted typhoon) several dozen beers for his efforts to manage this PR disaster on their behalf. Look man, the root problem here is lack of transparency. 505's stance is "we're having middleware issues on Linux and Mac and need to keep your money to pay for other platforms, but we can't actually name even one middleware issue we've had, and we don't feel we owe you any answers anyway" and that's garbage.
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Post by absorbnix on Jan 16, 2019 15:58:20 GMT -6
[...] Fangamer sent people to this official board instead of giving anyone a way to talk to 505 directly. Sending us all to a "fan board" is about as unprofessional as suggesting Twitter as a support system. In case anyone is wondering exactly how that part of it happened. Fangamer Mailroom
Dec 29, 2018, 12:34 AM
to me
Hey there [redacted]
Unfortunately ArtPlay [http://artplay.co.jp] and 505 Games [https://505games.com/games/bloodstained] are not offering refunds, so we are only able to change your platform. You can provide further feedback to the team directly by posting on the Official Bloodstained Forum [http://bloodstainedfanforums.com] or the Bloodstained Discord server [https://discordapp.com/invite/bloodstained]. We’re sorry for the trouble; please let us know if you have any other questions.
-- [redacted] orders@fangamer.com Not that I'm saying they are to blame. Everyone is just trying to figure out what to do about Artplay/505's malice.
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Post by rav4ishing on Jan 16, 2019 18:06:58 GMT -6
As for the SotN comment (I'm not sure why you brought that up, but I'll address it anyway), the game was developed in a relatively short time by a small number of core developers and multiple games worth of pre-existing assets. That seems to be something people either forget or conveniently overlook. Iga was able to make games on a relatively low budget because he had nearly a decade worth of art assets as his disposal. It would have taken considerably longer to make a game of SotN's scope and detail without that head start. Keep in mind that under Konami, Iga and his team probably focused his entire time on technical and design aspects of the game. If I'm understanding correctly, he's basically also part of the team running the company now, and has extra duties that he didn't have prior when working for Konami. This will have an impact, but it's all behind the scenes and likely no one will understand unless they have personal experience in it. I recall the time when I worked as a consultant for a software startup. The extra things we had to do were not part of my job when I worked under a bigger company. Also keep in mind he's not just making another SoTN; we have to be mindful of making such a direct comparison. It's honestly really apples to oranges comparison. Tools and dev environment are not the same.
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Post by rav4ishing on Jan 16, 2019 18:16:38 GMT -6
I agree with this. If the refund matters that much to anyone, rally together and get a lawyer to represent your case. Which brings us to the following point :
Question , Do you have legal dept email in 505-games i can forward my case to?
Good luck.
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Post by DSLevantine on Jan 20, 2019 7:21:55 GMT -6
- No GoG support for CoTM that was bundled in a campaign to a DRM free product. - Dropped platforms as such : Linux / Mac / PS vita
- No refunds offered for dropped platforms. - Communication with the publisher is ALMOST non-existing - No release date after 5 years. - Unanswered speculations as to DRM as the reason for dropped PC platforms. Most of these aren't accurate. - No GoG support for CoTM that was bundled in a campaign to a DRM free product. - Dropped platforms as such : Linux / Mac / PS vita / Wii U (succeeded by Switch)- No refunds offered for Mac/Linux. - This is a subjective observation. You can talk to them every day. - No release date after 3.5 years. - Unanswered speculations as to DRM as the reason for dropped PC platforms. Someone corrected me earlier for not capitalizing the "O" in GOG but I'll spare you that one. For the communication, I think communication only exists if both parties take part in the conversation. If you talk to them every day and they won't respond, that's not communication. Your point still stands, as it is still a subjective observation. For me, I would say communication is ALMOST non-existing is close to the truth.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 20, 2019 14:43:39 GMT -6
That depends on how you define "communication". You can tag them here and it might take a few days, or you can tag them on discord and it's usually a matter of hours or instantly (PMs are also an option), and from all I've seen these are reliable options to hearing back from 505 Games.
However, if bad communication means that what was communicated back to you was insufficient, then that can be arguably bad, or it can just mean that you don't like the communication given rather than it being bad. Hearing something you don't like isn't exactly the same as them never talking to you, and largely I think some of this comes from a position of being spoiled by the access we already have. I don't follow game/indie development situations much at all and never like this, but I've never been privy to a closely knit fan/publisher relationship like this before. The discord thing and this forum are both fan-created and fan-run entities where it's part of their daily routine (and after hours, because Angel did it after hours and now everyone expects that) to come in and check on us and answer questions as often as possible.
So, subjective indeed, to me, bad communication =/ the communication someone didn't want.
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Post by clivethebarker on Jan 20, 2019 15:53:09 GMT -6
Someone, somewhere up the chain at 505 is not communicating information people want to know, and Question and Angel-Corlux have not responded to these beyond some very, very vague PR speak.
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