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Post by CastleDan on Mar 26, 2019 18:46:41 GMT -6
Man the title of this thread is incredibly rude. I don't know if I mentioned that before but yikes. Lol
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Post by gunlord500 on Mar 26, 2019 20:33:22 GMT -6
I think bloodstained is worse than that since the dev don't even want to refund the backers but I haven't seen any youtube journalist talking about this.
But compare the best case, benefit-of-a-doubt scenarios between Bloodstained and Phoenix Point. Bloodstained has a plethora of reasons, explanations and excuses that sound perfectly rational and legitimate, even if they were lying through their teeth (not my belief, for the record, but that's neither here nor there). The lack of an open refund offer is something of a sour spot but even for that there is a reasonable explanation.
Compare Phoenix Point, which is a self-admitted case of greed and cold corporate thinking. They knew backlash was inevitable and were fully expecting plenty of people to demand refunds, but they figured that not all of the backers would back out and even if they all would Snapshot's bank account would still be in the positive. This was a calculated selling out and using the backers as 0% interest loans (as the reaction on the reddit went). The only saving grace they had at all was the refund option, without it they would be going to court as we were speaking. Couple that with the other side being Epic who had already been involved in a similar PR blowback and it's no wonder that PP got a lot of attention.
To be fair, and I always bring this up, UnstableVoltage's famous quote on discord was in reply to me, as I brought up the subject initially--this is the post I originally made on the Phoenix Point discord. But yeah, I know what you mean, I've been depressed about that for a while, PP was looking to be one of the most successful crowdfunders I'd helped, even more so than Bloodstained (and I think Bloodstained is gonna turn out really well, especially after the graphical updates), but that one decision turned it into a tragedy, the forums and subreddits are all fragmented and angry and the community I'd grown attached to is gone  Ah, that's a topic for another thread, though... Attachments:
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Post by monyarm on May 10, 2019 5:33:21 GMT -6
I just made an account, i've been following things since december, and while i'm not a backer, i really wanted to buy the game post release and play it. I have fond memories of SOTN (first game i ever finished), and love the metroidvania genre as a whole. So i was excited for this game, however couldn't pledge for the kickstarter at the time.
Looking at the response from 505 and some members of this community, i'm honestly appalled, you've got a developer working for canonical, the company behind one of if not the largest linux distro, who's also a kernel developer, offering to help FOR FREE to make the game work, and they just ignore him, and don't even give any justification. And then there are people who are calling out the linux users cause they're justifiably mad. They were promised a game, but were not only told that they wouldn't be getting the game, they wouldn't be getting a refund, and they were also admonished for complaining about the way they were treated.
Honestly Question, can you guys at 505 just hire browren already, he's not even asking for any money, and doing so would also atleast partially repair the damage you've caused to your reputation. And if you can't hire him for some reason, atleast give him a reason as to why you can't port to linux, middleware isn't a valid excuse.
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Post by browren on May 10, 2019 9:49:14 GMT -6
Honestly Question, can you guys at 505 just hire browren already, he's not even asking for any money, and doing so would also atleast partially repair the damage you've caused to your reputation. And if you can't hire him for some reason, atleast give him a reason as to why you can't port to linux, middleware isn't a valid excuse. I've still got Linux UE4 sitting here gathering dust, but I've also got a Proton dev environment set up too, and Wine/Lutris of course. It is a little disappointing, I think I was well positioned to help, but their management doesn't want help I guess.
Anyway, at this point it doesn't really matter - there's a month left, and 505 has to release something. If the Windows version runs under Wine without any modifications (like they said they hope it will), 505's proved themselves liars - ain't no technical issue if it just works, no? And, if it doesn't work, I'll figure out why and you can bet your 60-fps Switch version  that I'll be posting my findings everywhere.
Stay tuned!
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Post by browren on May 10, 2019 9:52:06 GMT -6
Man the title of this thread is incredibly rude. I don't know if I mentioned that before but yikes. Lol Missed this. In context, I had emailed 505 a full month before I got any response at all, and as you can see they just doubled down on their middleware excuse and in the end, explained nothing.
It's too bad that mean words are only good enough to improve artwork. I would have been a lot meaner if I'd known that made a difference.
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Post by kamuiarikado on May 10, 2019 13:55:28 GMT -6
Disclaimer: The following are just conjectures, baseless theories and mere speculation, so please don't take this too seriously.
I think there are a lot of risks involved like:
Possible leaks, time and budget issues, legal and bureaucratic stuff like: contractual terms and conditions with the other companies involved directly or indirectly in the game's development, brand issues, investor issues, publisher issues, technical issues (like the middleware thing), more legal and boring (but important) stuff, that little thing called trade secrets, that perhaps it's super illegal to hire an external and non-japanese individual (in this particular case) to work voluntarily and/or without pay on the Linux and/or Mac ports, and so on, and so on.
About the last statement: Can someone provide examples of non-japanese external individuals, or diehard fans that had been hired and worked voluntarily and/or without pay on a japanese videogame company in the past? Indie or AAA, it doesn't matter. I know there are some very rare instances.
Perhaps will we never know to deep detail the reasons of why they canceled the Mac and Linux ports, just the vague "middleware issues" statement, but at least they're giving the option to the affected backers to change their Bloodstained digital copy to physical (Mac and Linux ONLY), so they can sell it and get more money that they had been backed. I know it sucks, and it wasn't a nice and fair thing, not by a long shot, but at least it's something.
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Post by Busterific on May 10, 2019 17:17:31 GMT -6
Perhaps will we never know to deep detail the reasons of why they canceled the Linux/Mac ports, just the vague "middleware issues" statement, but at least they're giving the option to the affected backers to change their Bloodstained digital copy to physical, so they can sell it and get more money that they had been backed. I know it sucks, and it wasn't a nice and fair thing, not by a long shot, but at least it's something. Where did you get this information from? I thought they were no longer allowing changes to platforms and were not allowing a change between digital and physical since they were based on different backer levels? |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on May 10, 2019 17:49:49 GMT -6
That's only the case for the Mac/Linux backers, and is still an option as of right now. They're granted a special case here.
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Post by kamuiarikado on May 10, 2019 21:24:19 GMT -6
That's only the case for the Mac/Linux backers, and is still an option as of right now. They're granted a special case here. Comment updated, sorry for the confusion. |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on May 11, 2019 0:37:38 GMT -6
I thought it was clear myself, but maybe that's because I'm familiar with the situation.
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Post by browren on May 11, 2019 21:16:26 GMT -6
kamuiarikado All of that is of course possible, but only really half of the issue. Middleware is double-sided - it's an interface between the game, and the OS, so the game doesn't have to understand details about how the OS works. While it's a moot point now, I could have made changes to the OS to address whatever technical fault that 505 claimed was a blocker problem for them. The nice thing about Linux is that most anyone can contribute fixes when they find something broken. You don't have to work for the company that makes Ubuntu, but it does make the fixes get in there faster. If 505 did actually have a technical problem they haven't even bothered to file a bug anywhere for it. If they had, they could have just pointed me at the bug report and been done with it. I would have fixed it.
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Post by monyarm on May 14, 2019 1:23:12 GMT -6
There is some gaming news that could give hope, Google Stadia is being accepted by large devs like Id Software, and it runs on Linux (Debian), so if it becomes popular enough, it's possible for 505 to decide to make a Linux version in order to support Stadia. If you want your game on Stadia, you have to build it to run well on Linux.
If the middleware problems are because of Sony or Nintendo, it's possible for the middleware to get a Linux native version, in order for devs to be able to make their games work on Stadia.
It's only a small glimmer of hope for far off in the future, it's better than nothing, but might aswell be.
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Post by Brainiac on May 14, 2019 7:32:22 GMT -6
...it's better than nothing... <shakes head>
Poor choice of phrase.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on May 14, 2019 8:24:54 GMT -6
...it's better than nothing... <shakes head>
Poor choice of phrase.
I didn't notice that until you pointed it out. Perhaps it's time we let it go, it's a common phrase. Roll on...  Anyway, browren, it seems unfortunate the "damned if they do, damned if they don't" situation you're putting them in here. If the game does run well with emulation in the end (perhaps after potential steps taken since they've said "we're hopeful that it will function with emulation"), you'll take that to mean they lied and there were no problems, and if it doesn't work, then that's as bad or worse since you guys can't play it as it is (unless work is done, which you may or may not be able to do). For whatever reason, if emulation is the only way it works and otherwise it'd have taken more resources than they could reasonably use/pull this close to releasing, I hope that answer (as it is what they've said, too) is accepted rather than any potential outcome used against them. |
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Post by browren on May 14, 2019 15:52:26 GMT -6
<shakes head>
Poor choice of phrase.
I didn't notice that until you pointed it out. Perhaps it's time we let it go, it's a common phrase. Roll on... Anyway, browren, it seems unfortunate the "damned if they do, damned if they don't" situation you're putting them in here. If the game does run well with emulation in the end (perhaps after potential steps taken since they've said "we're hopeful that it will function with emulation"), you'll take that to mean they lied and there were no problems, and if it doesn't work, then that's as bad or worse since you guys can't play it as it is (unless work is done, which you may or may not be able to do). For whatever reason, if emulation is the only way it works and otherwise it'd have taken more resources than they could reasonably use/pull this close to releasing, I hope that answer (as it is what they've said, too) is accepted rather than any potential outcome used against them.
I didn't put them in that situation. They put themselves there by being dishonest.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on May 14, 2019 15:59:02 GMT -6
I didn't notice that until you pointed it out. Perhaps it's time we let it go, it's a common phrase. Roll on... Anyway, browren, it seems unfortunate the "damned if they do, damned if they don't" situation you're putting them in here. If the game does run well with emulation in the end (perhaps after potential steps taken since they've said "we're hopeful that it will function with emulation"), you'll take that to mean they lied and there were no problems, and if it doesn't work, then that's as bad or worse since you guys can't play it as it is (unless work is done, which you may or may not be able to do). For whatever reason, if emulation is the only way it works and otherwise it'd have taken more resources than they could reasonably use/pull this close to releasing, I hope that answer (as it is what they've said, too) is accepted rather than any potential outcome used against them.
I didn't put them in that situation. They put themselves there by being dishonest.
Just so we're clear, you don't think there's any possibility, however slight, that they're not being dishonest? Sorry if the question is redundant. |
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Post by browren on May 14, 2019 16:41:30 GMT -6
I didn't put them in that situation. They put themselves there by being dishonest.
Just so we're clear, you don't think there's any possibility, however slight, that they're not being dishonest? Sorry if the question is redundant.
None whatsoever - they had an obligation to meet, they backed out of it, but kept the money they were given to do it. Everything that follows from that is nothing more than excuses for why they shouldn't have to do the right thing.
I'm still willing to accept a proper technical explanation and drop the issue entirely, like I said in my original post, but that's clearly not happening.
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Ah, that's a topic for another thread, though...
that I'll be posting my findings everywhere. 
yey