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Post by Brainiac on Aug 2, 2018 9:04:22 GMT -6
The most recent Extra Credits episode has something to say about the risks of only listening to the hardcore. As much as many of us are already fans of Igavanias, the team HAS to listen to more than just us or risk becoming even more niche. Thankfully, in the age of the indie Metroidvania glut, I think there's enough market penetration to get a good sample of return (and it looks like the beta backer demo has given some good info already).
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Post by Hertzila on Aug 2, 2018 16:30:56 GMT -6
Going to split this up a bit. It feels like they touched on a bit too many topics on the video to be neatly encapsulated.
On the idea of the fan dev being a problem: I fundamentally disagree with the premise. They have couple of good points but I would argue that they are not strikes against hiring, even primarily, from the pool of devs that already like your games. Look at the many modders and enthusiasts studios like Paradox have hired and flourished on. Wiz himself started on as a modder IIRC. Sonic Mania is another glowing example that refutes it. Fresh talent has its benefits, but so does talent that already knows your stuff inside and out. As long as they are professionals who know their stuff, I think there is far less danger in it than what the video portrays.
That's not to say there aren't risks which they point out. Ultimately, designers that live and breathe games and just games are going to have a lot less diverse experiences to draw from. Nintendo's various games are a good example of this, plenty of their games grew out of their head devs favourite hobbies and interests, from bug collecting into Pokemon to gardening into Pikmin. Kantai Collection is another success rising primarily from ultra-geek / otaku interest into wartime navies. It's also very important to avoid yes-men. There absolutely has to be an understanding that others can have valid criticism and points about the decisions of the head honcho and that it's okay to say them without having to expect getting fired. Otherwise we get George Lucas and the prequels. (FYI, I cannot for the life of me see Bloodstained falling for this. I think it is just a valid point brought up by the video.)
On the premise that I think they implicitly hold but never outright say, that focusing heavily on the skilled and invested players, especially the ones that favor game mechanics, is detrimental for the games and studios: I disagree. It is not the deep systems and heavy mechanical design focus that drive away people, it's the lacking User Experience design. Tutorials, UI, conveyance, all that is crucial for new players. While that is admittedly helped by a designer that is not used to genre conventions and thus can more accurately think of the first-time players perspective, the same can be done by QA and testers in general. A special out-of-genre designer hired just for this purpose seems wasteful.
A game that is all about User Experience to gain new players is Monster Hunter World. Almost all of their streamlining is squarely focused on getting the UI and the world to communicate with the player in a clear way, rather than relying purely on external wikis. Its sheer success should show that a well designed User Experience is the key here, not shallower mechanics.
However, what bothers me most in the video is the lack of explanation and proof about these issues, or what I'd consider a fundamental misunderstanding of the underlying issue. As the biggest example, the guy mentions Dwarf Fortress in what I assume is meant to be illustrative of his point, but DF couldn't be further from what he's talking about. Bay 12 has never ever hired anyone for development, it's purely a two-man show. Toady One, DF's head dev (in the sense that he's the programmer and the one ultimately deciding what gets made and what doesn't) doesn't consider his UI at all good but doesn't think it's smart to rework it until after they have some sort of feature completion. To top it all off, he is not a fan of colony management sims. He is a university mathematician by training and frequently uses his and his brother's love for history and trashy fantasy stories as inspiration. The games he does like to play are stuff like Dark Souls and Avernum. Nothing in Dwarf Fortress is even remotely linked to what he is talking about, aside from the fact that the symptom (UI that actively repulses new players) has a passing resemblance to his point. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the relevance or looking too deep into a quick joke, but he seems to repeat the same mistake with StarCraft and just vaguely say that lots of games are making this grave error of going too deep into mechanics and closing the door for wider audience when personal experience would point towards overt "streamlining" / dumbing down being the norm and the core audience being the abandoned one by publishers too concerned with mass market and all the money it might make to see their actual current market and actual revenue.
To top this all off, I still find it weird to see an argument made to turn away from what the core fans liked and to eye the mass market instead, on a project specifically about returning to the core experience that fans liked and to not worry about the mass market too much. The argument may not be automatically invalid, I just find seeing it here of all places incredibly ironic.
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Post by ghostpepper on Aug 4, 2018 23:14:16 GMT -6
Uh, I didn't listen to much of the video but this is a kickstarter project funded by a small group of highly eager fans. Ignoring them in favor for adapting views of a group that wasn't interested enough to help out seems counterproductive.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2018 8:00:27 GMT -6
It is not the deep systems and heavy mechanical design focus that drive away people, it's the lacking User Experience design. Tutorials, UI, conveyance, all that is crucial for new players. This is more or less how I feel, too. Fighting game fans instantly come to mind. Diehard fans dearly love all the wacky and clever advanced techniques their games let them do, to the point where those advanced techniques more or less define the experience for them. When you spend a lot of time at that skill level, it's easy to forget what it's like to be a complete newcomer. If those diehard fans then go on to make a fighting game entirely based around wacky and clever advanced techniques, without even bothering to try and help curious newcomers learn how to perform them, then that could certainly limit the potential audience of the game, even if it's actually a really great game. Of course, while this is no doubt an important theoretical problem to keep in mind, I don't know if I've seen it too often in practice. Take Skullgirls for example. Even a few quick glances can tell you it was made by some Grade A fighting game nuts, and yet it's one of the most accessible fighting games around with a startlingly robust tutorial mode. It's the AAA fighting game franchises I find the least accessible, ironically. Granted, the more Extra Credits videos I watch, the harder I find it to relate to them. If there was a Venn Diagram of all the games I've played vs. all the games they've played, it often feels like the overlapping section might be big enough for two, maybe three ants to sunbathe in. With how alien their experience is, for all I know, this might actually be a rampant issue in some strange corner of the gamingverse.
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Post by Hertzila on Aug 6, 2018 12:16:03 GMT -6
Of course, while this is no doubt an important theoretical problem to keep in mind, I don't know if I've seen it too often in practice. Take Skullgirls for example. Even a few quick glances can tell you it was made by some Grade A fighting game nuts, and yet it's one of the most accessible fighting games around with a startlingly robust tutorial mode. It's the AAA fighting game franchises I find the least accessible, ironically. Exactly what I'm thinking. While there are certainly games that are lacking in the User Experience side, I find that it tends to be coupled with other issues rather than being the standout one. Most of the complex games that are lacking specifically in the UX side that I can think of are old games. Almost all new ones spend either a lot or A LOT of effort making the UX as good as they can, so they won't lose as many players. If I think back to the games I've played and look at the number of complex games that are developed by ardent fans of the genre and have the UX issue that the video claims to be a big issue, I can maybe think of two games. Kerbal Space Program's studio Squad has hired fans to my knowledge and they had issues with KSP's UX, while it was in Early Access. Factorio is another "maybe they hired fans" and it still has badly lacking tutorials, but it's also still in Early Access. Doesn't exactly look like a rampant issue to me and it honestly looks more likely that it's the AAA games that are the ones that could use some touching up in the UX side. My mind went to Paradox Grand Strategies (EU4, Stellaris) while watching and they have certainly gotten a lot better with UI design as the years have gone by. Stellaris also had a whole voiced in-game tutorial system (The first one I think I''ve seen in Grand Strategies or 4X's, did Civs have any?) specifically because they knew their games are hard to get into and they could strike some new ground with Stellaris. And again to counter the video's point, Paradox has hired fans and modders for their devs including Stellaris' project lead Wiz (IIRC), and yet Stellaris definitely has their best-designed UI's and tutorials. Granted, the more Extra Credits videos I watch, the harder I find it to relate to them. If there was a Venn Diagram of all the games I've played vs. all the games they've played, it often feels like the overlapping section might be big enough for two, maybe three ants to sunbathe in. With how alien their experience is, for all I know, this might actually be a rampant issue in some strange corner of the gamingverse. While I love their Extra History stuff despite their mistakes, I find their video game side has gotten really hit-and-miss sadly. I wish I knew why, I think all of them are game developer veterans and you'd expect them to keep a finger on the industry's pulse, even if they don't play as much games as they could before or limit it to their favourites. My pure guess is that this has happened in a couple of projects they've seen and they figured it was topic worthy of a video. Even if it looks to be a very limited issue.
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Post by seiya on Aug 7, 2018 10:12:48 GMT -6
I find their video game side has gotten really hit-and-miss sadly. Same here unfortunately. I actually havent watched their videos of late because of it.
The honest truth of what it means to make a game when you are either a famous producer or working in a famous franchise, you have to balance between the fans and bringing new people in.
In something like a kickstarter, you can get away with leaning on the side of the fans quite heavily. Your fans are the ones who have already paid for it. You are not counting on bringing new people in to pay for it, and you do not have to bow to another company whose money you are using.
That said, quite often, the rabid (and yes, I can be one at times) fan can force bad ideas on a game if you are not careful. This is where aiming for broader appeal can temper that and make a better game.
But, I also said, you have to aim for a balance. World of Warcraft is one of those games where it has changed over time so much for a variety of reasons. Some of it is new management, new technology, but the one quoted has been to allow more players. The problem is that it has made some classes/specs not having the gameplay that made them pull you in. The new expansion was the last bit needed to make me quit. The reason is pretty simple; as a long running player, I am invested in my main. My character has lost a lot of abilities in the last 2 expansions, and more in this one. So rather then try and get problems caused by this fixed for another expac, I have moved on. Oh, and yes, I have been in all the betas. For the Legion expac, I even reported a bug that was "fixed" for the spec when the skill it was attached to was completely redone 4 patches later. So, they are losing longterm fans for moving too far into the "pull in more people" direction.
But, if you do hit a balance, you can appeal to a wide audience while keeping your vision as you want it. Look at how long the Zelda franchise has held on. It has changed and adapted over time, but never lost its charm. It has admitted had its ups and downs, but it is still considered on of the best series over. That is what a balanced design looks like in this case, appealing to fans by keeping the things they enjoy in while pulling in the items that the new generations want.
I may get lambasted here, but I know another example of franchise that lost it over time, at least to me. The Final Fantasy series. I just lost interest after FF10. The MMOs werent bad, but I just could never get into the other games just never caught my attention, and much like Zelda, I have been playing it since it came out on the NES. Somewhere, they lost their flavor, majestic beauty, and grand feeling for me. I know when it started to die, but I will leave that out because that is just an opinion.
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Post by Question on Aug 7, 2018 12:18:54 GMT -6
I've worked at a lot of places and I've never experienced a dev team made up of only hardcore fans. Riot might be the one to do this the most, but that was back when they were making a hardcore game exclusively for hardcore fans, so it made sense. By the time I got there, they wanted people to at least know about the game because game knowledge could be taught faster than professional knowledge.
When it comes to listening to fans a dev team needs to know its target audience. Part of being a game dev is to have a vision matched with experience and seasoned with feedback.
I certainly have seen communities that had far too much a sense of ownership and I've seen dev teams that didn't listen at all. It needs to be a balance. Devs should listen to the fans and weigh those suggestions with their vision and experience to create a game that best fits their target audience.
With that said, a franchise is a very difficult beast to tame. You have to keep pushing forward while keeping enough the same to appease fans. It's not easy.
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Post by Mr. Welldone on Aug 7, 2018 12:42:20 GMT -6
With that said, a franchise is a very difficult beast to tame. You have to keep pushing forward while keeping enough the same to appease fans. It's not easy. I think Run DMC said it best:
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Post by Hertzila on Aug 7, 2018 13:35:51 GMT -6
While I agree that feedback, fan feedback included, absolutely needs to be treated with care and checked if it's good or even relevant to the development process, I don't think the video's talking about that and that's what confuses me about it. It seems to specifically talk about dev teams composed of fans and dedicated gamers rather than feedback from them, two distantly linked but very different problems from my understanding. Also something I can't recall really and truly happening, and in the times that are kinda like that I can't recall a single time where it has clearly been to the game's detriment. So their caution ends up looking wildly academic and unrealistic, even if the theory and logic sounds valid.
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