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Post by DSLevantine on May 24, 2018 1:17:19 GMT -6
Does anyone know how to uninstall steam but keep the game in my computer?
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Post by DSLevantine on May 24, 2018 8:30:47 GMT -6
I tried to copy the game to other computer but I cannot launch the game. It is clear that the game is not DRM Free. If the game is not DRM free then IGA is clearly lying then the kickstarter project is just a false advertisement.
Iga and the team, you cant just shift all the blame to inti-creates since this game is part of the kickstarter project and you have to answer to it.
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Post by Jango on May 24, 2018 11:03:19 GMT -6
You can play CotM without Steam. Grab it on PS4 or a Nintendo device, or in a week or so on Xbox. CotM is a separate production using the Bloodstained license but it is not the game the Kickstarter raised money for. In fact anyone coming to CotM via the Kickstarter is getting the game for free. If owning a free game that has some form of DRM is a dealbreaker that's your thing. It's a shame too since CotM turned out as well as it did. BS: RotN will be available on GoG.
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Post by Meh on May 24, 2018 11:27:12 GMT -6
You can play CotM without Steam. Grab it on PS4 or a Nintendo device, or in a week or so on Xbox. CotM is a separate production using the Bloodstained license but it is not the game the Kickstarter raised money for. In fact anyone coming to CotM via the Kickstarter is getting the game for free. If owning a free game that has some form of DRM is a dealbreaker that's your thing. It's a shame too since CotM turned out as well as it did. BS: RotN will be available on GoG. Except this isn't a free game. It was in the stretch goals while the campaign was running, meaning it was a part of the original KS package.
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Hyrist
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Post by Hyrist on May 24, 2018 12:01:45 GMT -6
You can play CotM without Steam. Grab it on PS4 or a Nintendo device, or in a week or so on Xbox. CotM is a separate production using the Bloodstained license but it is not the game the Kickstarter raised money for. In fact anyone coming to CotM via the Kickstarter is getting the game for free. If owning a free game that has some form of DRM is a dealbreaker that's your thing. It's a shame too since CotM turned out as well as it did. BS: RotN will be available on GoG. Except this isn't a free game. It was in the stretch goals while the campaign was running, meaning it was a part of the original KS package.
Yet the product's immediate availability, timing, and timing of the codes were never promised - only that it would be released and the backers would have the codes. In fact, several of the systems that the side-game is on, are actually additional consoles never part of the initial promise. We want to go further, delays and issues were listed as part of the "Risks" section of the original Kickstarter project page. Granted, they did use that section to try to reassure us and play a few jokes, but this part was important: Codes are a part of that, sorry to say. We're going to run into more problems like these, most likely. Annoyances, yes, but just that. |
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on May 24, 2018 12:51:11 GMT -6
Also, to me, the "original Kickstarter package" is just that - what the tier descriptions say I pledged for. I think I backed the day after it launched and things kept getting stacked on/upgraded on top of that. Those additions and upgrades are promises and I definitely expect them, of course, but I've also always thought "how are they doing all of this?"
$28 is the main game, this mini game and all those stretch goals. It's such a diminutive and laughable price that I mean...well, it's just insane generosity to me.
"Free" isn't technically correct, sure, more like "included in what I paid", but it's a minority too that saw and backed expecting the mini-game as a paid inclusion since it was one of the last stretch goals, at 4.5 m. There were only 3 after that, the very next being the mini game on portables. It's kind of like investing in something, and in this case the value shot up way freaking high.
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Post by Meh on May 25, 2018 1:49:58 GMT -6
Except this isn't a free game. It was in the stretch goals while the campaign was running, meaning it was a part of the original KS package.
Yet the product's immediate availability, timing, and timing of the codes were never promised - only that it would be released and the backers would have the codes. In fact, several of the systems that the side-game is on, are actually additional consoles never part of the initial promise. We want to go further, delays and issues were listed as part of the "Risks" section of the original Kickstarter project page. Granted, they did use that section to try to reassure us and play a few jokes, but this part was important: Codes are a part of that, sorry to say. We're going to run into more problems like these, most likely. Annoyances, yes, but just that.
Why the Hell are you writing all that in response to my post? It's completely unrelated.
But, alright, since you want to discuss that topic, I'll play along. The problem with this delay is in the selective nature of the delay. The entire release date wasn't pushed, rather the codes for the backers were. The game is out and the codes aren't because Inti managed to make a logistical fuckup on a self-imposed release date that they announced shorty before the actual release. What, they couldn't have gotten the codes before announcing the game? Waiting a few more weeks would have been disastrous, right?
Now, if they just messed the codes up and opted to delay the game release for a couple of weeks, I doubt many would protest, but they decided to go ahead with it. So, instead of giving preferential of even equal treatment to the backers that made all of this a reality, they treat them like an afterthought. A general delay would have been an annoyance, but with this course of action they spat in the face of the backers. If you don't mind the saliva, that's ok, but some of us do.
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gunlord500
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Post by gunlord500 on May 25, 2018 1:59:47 GMT -6
Yet the product's immediate availability, timing, and timing of the codes were never promised - only that it would be released and the backers would have the codes. In fact, several of the systems that the side-game is on, are actually additional consoles never part of the initial promise. We want to go further, delays and issues were listed as part of the "Risks" section of the original Kickstarter project page. Granted, they did use that section to try to reassure us and play a few jokes, but this part was important: Codes are a part of that, sorry to say. We're going to run into more problems like these, most likely. Annoyances, yes, but just that.
Why the Hell are you writing all that in response to my post? It's completely unrelated.
But, alright, since you want to discuss that topic, I'll play along. The problem with this delay is in the selective nature of the delay. The entire release date wasn't pushed, rather the codes for the backers were. The game is out and the codes aren't because Inti managed to make a logistical fuckup on a self-imposed release date that they announced shorty before the actual release. What, they couldn't have gotten the codes before announcing the game? Waiting a few more weeks would have been disastrous, right?
Now, if they just messed the codes up and opted to delay the game release for a couple of weeks, I doubt many would protest, but they decided to go ahead with it. So, instead of giving preferential of even equal treatment to the backers that made all of this a reality, they treat them like an afterthought. A general delay would have been an annoyance, but with this course of action they spat in the face of the backers. If you don't mind the saliva, that's ok, but some of us do.
Easy, now, Hyrist was responding to your post in good faith. I can understand your irritation, but don't direct it at fellow fans who had nothing to do with the problem.
That said, I agree with you--if I had been in charge, I wouldn't have set down a release date of May 24 at the very moment I announced the game. However, I think they may have wanted to put it out ASAP to avoid Curse of the Moon competing for attention with the second Bloodstained demo that's coming out in June. But on the other hand, as I've also been mentioning at places, it seems to me Inti just isn't very good--at all--with release logistics. This seems like an unfortunate pattern with them, and I bet IGA isn't much happier than we are. Since Ritual of the Night is with Artplay and 505 rather than Inti, I think it's likely IGA and 505 are looking carefully at how Inti messed up and will attempt to avoid something similar for the main game.
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Post by DSLevantine on May 25, 2018 23:03:32 GMT -6
You can play CotM without Steam. Grab it on PS4 or a Nintendo device, or in a week or so on Xbox. CotM is a separate production using the Bloodstained license but it is not the game the Kickstarter raised money for. In fact anyone coming to CotM via the Kickstarter is getting the game for free. If owning a free game that has some form of DRM is a dealbreaker that's your thing. It's a shame too since CotM turned out as well as it did. BS: RotN will be available on GoG. Are you serious? You are suggesting someone to buy PS4 or Nintendo device while the most sensible option is for them to remove the steam DRM? No cost incurred to anyone for removing the DRM. When it is stated on kickstarter, it is part of the deal, it is not a free game. You don't mind being lied to, that's fine but I definitely call them out for lying. I don't get your logic and I disagree with all your points. |
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Post by Scars Unseen on May 25, 2018 23:35:46 GMT -6
DSLevantine You can call out anyone you want, but Inti Creates has made their stance on DRM clear, so it's not going to do much good. The game is self-published by them, so the only thing ArtPlay could really do in response is not do business with them again, which still won't get you the game DRM-free. If you're looking at ways to be angry, they're certainly there. But if you're looking to play the game, which is what the posted topic is about, then the logic of the people replying to you holds: if you don't want to play it on Steam, there are other platforms available as well.
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Post by DSLevantine on May 26, 2018 21:01:14 GMT -6
DSLevantine You can call out anyone you want, but Inti Creates has made their stance on DRM clear, so it's not going to do much good. The game is self-published by them, so the only thing ArtPlay could really do in response is not do business with them again, which still won't get you the game DRM-free. If you're looking at ways to be angry, they're certainly there. But if you're looking to play the game, which is what the posted topic is about, then the logic of the people replying to you holds: if you don't want to play it on Steam, there are other platforms available as well. well, Inti Creates, they are liars, it's better to call them what they are. I would blame this issue solely on Inti Creates if ArtPlay responds to this issue and tells us that they don't want to do business with Inti Creates anymore because Inti Creates screwed up so hard. Now, ArtPlay refuses to comment, it means ArtPlay agrees with what Inti Creates did, so ArtPlay is part of the problem, not solution. The topic is about playing the steam version without DRM, I didn't talk about other consoles. |
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roguedragon05
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Post by roguedragon05 on May 26, 2018 22:00:07 GMT -6
DSLevantine First off that's just not how businesses work with one another, they don't throw one another under the bus when they may HAVE to work together in the future. And your making assumptions about Artplays culpability, even if your right you can't back it up with anything at the very least wait until this all pans out before you continue throwing blame every which way. Ultimately it is and was Inti's responsibility to have the codes ready on the date they chose. 505 has commented on the forums and said that they are taking steps to make sure things go smoother so I'm choosing to give them the benefit of the doubt. But to address the idea of a non-DRM version of CotM on PC. It's NOT going to happen, it's basically Inti's company policy not to make DRM free games. Now I fully agree with you that that should have been made blatantly clear A LONG TIME AGO! I personally don't believe that that's solely Inti's fault but I doubt were ever going to find out the whole story there. But that doesn't change the fact that Inti is in charge of CotM and short of a radical shift in probability a PC non-DRM version just isn't going to happen, right or wrong that's the way it is. Now your options, (apart from playing through Steam of course) you can not play the game, or you can get a console version, you can of course complain to any and all involved but Inti Creates has no presence on these forums your better off going through there FB or Emailing them directly from there site. I don't like those options any more then you do and luckily I don't have your hold up about Steam but I understand where you're coming from. Personally I think that Question or Angel or someone should confirm for those like DSLevantine that are counting on a non-DRM copy of Ritual that that WILL happen considering the circumstances. In closing I don't blame you for being mad I even agree with most of it, but being mad here isn't going to be heard by anyone apart from 505, Artplay, and Fangamer, and your fellows here and there not the ones who are ultimately responsible for it beyond connection to the project.
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Post by Scars Unseen on May 26, 2018 23:18:21 GMT -6
well, Inti Creates, they are liars, it's better to call them what they are. I would blame this issue solely on Inti Creates if ArtPlay responds to this issue and tells us that they don't want to do business with Inti Creates anymore because Inti Creates screwed up so hard. Now, ArtPlay refuses to comment, it means ArtPlay agrees with what Inti Creates did, so ArtPlay is part of the problem, not solution. The topic is about playing the steam version without DRM, I didn't talk about other consoles. Yeah, that's not going to happen. Customers can have knee-jerk opinions on things, but businesses usually don't have that luxury. If ArtPlay decides not to work with Inti Creates again, it will be a decision made when the next project they need to work with someone on is in the planning stage. If that makes you angry at ArtPlay, so be it, but it's unjustified anger. Inti Creates made this decision on their own, based on their own internal policies. Should they have had the agency to make such a decision? I can't say, because I don't know what kind of deal was made between ArtPlay and Inti Creates. Based on the fact that Inti is selling the game, my guess is that they didn't get much if any funding from the Kickstarter campaign and created the game on the basis of future profit. If this gave them financial and creative control, it would go a long way to explain why it's being published separately and why the game went from being a prequel to a completely alternate continuity. I don't like that the game does not have a DRM-free version. Of all the blunders Inti Creates made with this release, it's the one that will be longest lasting. It's the only one that actually cannot be compensated for by the quality of the game. I buy GOG whenever possible because I believe that publishers who support DRM-free platforms should be encouraged to continue doing so. But the reality here is that Curse of the Moon - in defiance of expectations and ethics - was published with DRM. It cannot be played without Steam running. You can complain about it, and you should. But at least direct it to the people who made the decision and have the power to change it. It's not ArtPlay, it's not Fangamer, and it's not 505 Games. And as far as I know, Inti Creates doesn't monitor this community. So, assuming you're actually trying to effect change, go to Inti Creates' Twitter account, or to any other platform they are confirmed to respond to. That's if you're trying to actually accomplish anything. If this was meant to be a rant thread, just let us know that. Nothing wrong with a good rant, but there's no point in us trying to provide constructive advice if you weren't looking for any in the first place. |
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Post by DSLevantine on Jun 5, 2018 22:04:26 GMT -6
DSLevantine First off that's just not how businesses work with one another, they don't throw one another under the bus when they may HAVE to work together in the future. And your making assumptions about Artplays culpability, even if your right you can't back it up with anything at the very least wait until this all pans out before you continue throwing blame every which way. Ultimately it is and was Inti's responsibility to have the codes ready on the date they chose. 505 has commented on the forums and said that they are taking steps to make sure things go smoother so I'm choosing to give them the benefit of the doubt. But to address the idea of a non-DRM version of CotM on PC. It's NOT going to happen, it's basically Inti's company policy not to make DRM free games. Now I fully agree with you that that should have been made blatantly clear A LONG TIME AGO! I personally don't believe that that's solely Inti's fault but I doubt were ever going to find out the whole story there. But that doesn't change the fact that Inti is in charge of CotM and short of a radical shift in probability a PC non-DRM version just isn't going to happen, right or wrong that's the way it is. Now your options, (apart from playing through Steam of course) you can not play the game, or you can get a console version, you can of course complain to any and all involved but Inti Creates has no presence on these forums your better off going through there FB or Emailing them directly from there site. I don't like those options any more then you do and luckily I don't have your hold up about Steam but I understand where you're coming from. Personally I think that Question or Angel or someone should confirm for those like DSLevantine that are counting on a non-DRM copy of Ritual that that WILL happen considering the circumstances. In closing I don't blame you for being mad I even agree with most of it, but being mad here isn't going to be heard by anyone apart from 505, Artplay, and Fangamer, and your fellows here and there not the ones who are ultimately responsible for it beyond connection to the project. I guess lying is how their business works. The result matters, Iga and Artplay cannot just shift the blame to Inti. Iga kickstarted the project, if he is honest and sincere, let us know cotm would be tainted with DRM then I wont back it. Iga can also offer refund now, I would go for it. But no, Iga would not do that, so it is reasonable to say Iga is part of the problem. They can choose to be blind and deaf to the complain, that's what they do all the time. |
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Post by DSLevantine on Jun 5, 2018 22:14:38 GMT -6
well, Inti Creates, they are liars, it's better to call them what they are. I would blame this issue solely on Inti Creates if ArtPlay responds to this issue and tells us that they don't want to do business with Inti Creates anymore because Inti Creates screwed up so hard. Now, ArtPlay refuses to comment, it means ArtPlay agrees with what Inti Creates did, so ArtPlay is part of the problem, not solution. The topic is about playing the steam version without DRM, I didn't talk about other consoles. Yeah, that's not going to happen. Customers can have knee-jerk opinions on things, but businesses usually don't have that luxury. If ArtPlay decides not to work with Inti Creates again, it will be a decision made when the next project they need to work with someone on is in the planning stage. If that makes you angry at ArtPlay, so be it, but it's unjustified anger. Inti Creates made this decision on their own, based on their own internal policies. Should they have had the agency to make such a decision? I can't say, because I don't know what kind of deal was made between ArtPlay and Inti Creates. Based on the fact that Inti is selling the game, my guess is that they didn't get much if any funding from the Kickstarter campaign and created the game on the basis of future profit. If this gave them financial and creative control, it would go a long way to explain why it's being published separately and why the game went from being a prequel to a completely alternate continuity. I don't like that the game does not have a DRM-free version. Of all the blunders Inti Creates made with this release, it's the one that will be longest lasting. It's the only one that actually cannot be compensated for by the quality of the game. I buy GOG whenever possible because I believe that publishers who support DRM-free platforms should be encouraged to continue doing so. But the reality here is that Curse of the Moon - in defiance of expectations and ethics - was published with DRM. It cannot be played without Steam running. You can complain about it, and you should. But at least direct it to the people who made the decision and have the power to change it. It's not ArtPlay, it's not Fangamer, and it's not 505 Games. And as far as I know, Inti Creates doesn't monitor this community. So, assuming you're actually trying to effect change, go to Inti Creates' Twitter account, or to any other platform they are confirmed to respond to. That's if you're trying to actually accomplish anything. If this was meant to be a rant thread, just let us know that. Nothing wrong with a good rant, but there's no point in us trying to provide constructive advice if you weren't looking for any in the first place. Good point. I wonder if there is a way to file an official complain to the authority instead of Inti Creates. |
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Post by Aztec on Jun 8, 2018 15:13:21 GMT -6
DSLevantine First off that's just not how businesses work with one another, they don't throw one another under the bus when they may HAVE to work together in the future. And your making assumptions about Artplays culpability, even if your right you can't back it up with anything at the very least wait until this all pans out before you continue throwing blame every which way. Ultimately it is and was Inti's responsibility to have the codes ready on the date they chose. 505 has commented on the forums and said that they are taking steps to make sure things go smoother so I'm choosing to give them the benefit of the doubt. But to address the idea of a non-DRM version of CotM on PC. It's NOT going to happen, it's basically Inti's company policy not to make DRM free games. Now I fully agree with you that that should have been made blatantly clear A LONG TIME AGO! I personally don't believe that that's solely Inti's fault but I doubt were ever going to find out the whole story there. But that doesn't change the fact that Inti is in charge of CotM and short of a radical shift in probability a PC non-DRM version just isn't going to happen, right or wrong that's the way it is. Now your options, (apart from playing through Steam of course) you can not play the game, or you can get a console version, you can of course complain to any and all involved but Inti Creates has no presence on these forums your better off going through there FB or Emailing them directly from there site. I don't like those options any more then you do and luckily I don't have your hold up about Steam but I understand where you're coming from. Personally I think that Question or Angel or someone should confirm for those like DSLevantine that are counting on a non-DRM copy of Ritual that that WILL happen considering the circumstances. In closing I don't blame you for being mad I even agree with most of it, but being mad here isn't going to be heard by anyone apart from 505, Artplay, and Fangamer, and your fellows here and there not the ones who are ultimately responsible for it beyond connection to the project. I guess lying is how their business works. The result matters, Iga and Artplay cannot just shift the blame to Inti. Iga kickstarted the project, if he is honest and sincere, let us know cotm would be tainted with DRM then I wont back it. Iga can also offer refund now, I would go for it. But no, Iga would not do that, so it is reasonable to say Iga is part of the problem. They can choose to be blind and deaf to the complain, that's what they do all the time. Yeah, that's not going to happen. Customers can have knee-jerk opinions on things, but businesses usually don't have that luxury. If ArtPlay decides not to work with Inti Creates again, it will be a decision made when the next project they need to work with someone on is in the planning stage. If that makes you angry at ArtPlay, so be it, but it's unjustified anger. Inti Creates made this decision on their own, based on their own internal policies. Should they have had the agency to make such a decision? I can't say, because I don't know what kind of deal was made between ArtPlay and Inti Creates. Based on the fact that Inti is selling the game, my guess is that they didn't get much if any funding from the Kickstarter campaign and created the game on the basis of future profit. If this gave them financial and creative control, it would go a long way to explain why it's being published separately and why the game went from being a prequel to a completely alternate continuity. I don't like that the game does not have a DRM-free version. Of all the blunders Inti Creates made with this release, it's the one that will be longest lasting. It's the only one that actually cannot be compensated for by the quality of the game. I buy GOG whenever possible because I believe that publishers who support DRM-free platforms should be encouraged to continue doing so. But the reality here is that Curse of the Moon - in defiance of expectations and ethics - was published with DRM. It cannot be played without Steam running. You can complain about it, and you should. But at least direct it to the people who made the decision and have the power to change it. It's not ArtPlay, it's not Fangamer, and it's not 505 Games. And as far as I know, Inti Creates doesn't monitor this community. So, assuming you're actually trying to effect change, go to Inti Creates' Twitter account, or to any other platform they are confirmed to respond to. That's if you're trying to actually accomplish anything. If this was meant to be a rant thread, just let us know that. Nothing wrong with a good rant, but there's no point in us trying to provide constructive advice if you weren't looking for any in the first place. Good point. I wonder if there is a way to file an official complain to the authority instead of Inti Creates. You really need to calm down, buddy. Things happen, mistakes are made, Inti really did botch the launch for backers (the actual game on the other hand is fantastic), but they're not "liars". Is playing this small side mini game on Steam really really that bad? If so then I'm sorry you cant enjoy it with the rest of us. |
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gunlord500
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Post by gunlord500 on Jun 8, 2018 17:06:13 GMT -6
DSLevantine I can understand how you feel, and IGA is responsible in the sense of being the head of the project, but I also think he's not really to blame for the GoG debacle. The way it usually works in the business world is that you sign a contract with someone and need to be held to it afterwards--if they put in nasty conditions or anything like that, you're screwed if you sign first before you find out earlier. I think Inti may have done this to IGA: He was trying to be nice and let them work on CotM after kicking them off the main game, but thought they would be cool with non-DRM games. So he gave them the publishing rights to CotM, but they didn't tell him they weren't OK with GoG and other non-GoG options, and by the time he found out it was too late. So I think you could say he should have been more careful, and probably never should have gone with inti AT ALL and just started with Monobit and Dico, but Inti seems like they fooled him and made themselves to be more competent and honest (at least in terms of publishing games, they seem to be good 2D devs) than they were.
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Post by xs8b on Jun 11, 2018 15:28:17 GMT -6
DSLevantine I can understand how you feel, and IGA is responsible in the sense of being the head of the project, but I also think he's not really to blame for the GoG debacle. The way it usually works in the business world is that you sign a contract with someone and need to be held to it afterwards--if they put in nasty conditions or anything like that, you're screwed if you sign first before you find out earlier. I think Inti may have done this to IGA: He was trying to be nice and let them work on CotM after kicking them off the main game, but thought they would be cool with non-DRM games. So he gave them the publishing rights to CotM, but they didn't tell him they weren't OK with GoG and other non-GoG options, and by the time he found out it was too late. So I think you could say he should have been more careful, and probably never should have gone with inti AT ALL and just started with Monobit and Dico, but Inti seems like they fooled him and made themselves to be more competent and honest (at least in terms of publishing games, they seem to be good 2D devs) than they were. Seems like this thread is based on a lot of conjecture.
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Monster-Hunting Igavaniac
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Post by Redogan on Jun 11, 2018 16:15:25 GMT -6
Can someone please explain to me why having to launch Steam in order to play is that bad? Because I don't see it. I understand what DRM is. Whether you paid for CotM or not, you need to have a license to play the title. If you don't have a license for it, then you shouldn't be playing it IMO. Steam is just a way to verify that you have the right to play the game. Gaming in 2018 is not like gaming in the 80's and 90's. (I know...I was there.) You can't just let your friends borrow your games to play for a couple of months and then have them returned to you.
Without having more information on the "why" of this thread, I have to assume that wanting a DRM-free version of the game is just to pirate it (copy it out to all your friends) in some way. I'm not trying to piss off anyone with this post. Rather, I just don't understand the logic behind DRM-free.
TC clearly wants to play the game on PC. So, why not sign up for an account with Steam (costs nothing), download and play? Is it an issue with the principle of the thing? Microsoft and Apple force your hand in the same way. Every copy of the Windows OS has to have a license. Same with Mac OS. So, unless you are using Linux (objectively superior for this and other reasons), you are going to be bound by DRM anyway.
Am I wrong here? TC is not making sense to me. This whole thread (accusations of lying, threats of legal action, etc) doesn't make sense to me. Someone enlighten me.
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jun 11, 2018 16:50:21 GMT -6
Redogan I don't have much time since I have to go to work, but in essence, DRM-free is a principle thing for some people like FOSS is for a lot of Linux users. As for utility, there's certainly more to it than piracy. The most notable scenarios where DRM gets in the way are in long term game preservation and in circumstances where one does not have access to the Internet. In the former case, with DRM present, the only way to preserve a game is piracy, which shouldn't be the case in order to preserve what is becoming an increasingly large part of our culture. Some publishers eventually remove DRM on their own, but not all do, and those game will eventually become unplayable. The latter scenario may seem inconsequential, but as someone who had to wait 7 months to get Internet access installed after moving to a new apartment before, let me tell you that DRM sucks when you have no way of navigating it. And people in the military deploy to locations where they have no Internet access all the time. They still need something to do in their down time.
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yey