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Post by m0nkf15h on Dec 12, 2017 8:18:49 GMT -6
From my experience with 'vania games i find that varied death animations of different creatures is what keeps the combat fresh and interesting, just seeing how differently everything dies not only gives the enemies more character but it also gives the player a sense of achievement and reward. I've been saying this over and over and over again on this forum in various different threads to the point that perhaps i sound like a stuck record. Yes we need gore and flames but also variation in death animation based on enemy type, so Dullahammer might fall apart as it dies, Aello might explode in feathers, Gieremund might just burn away in flames as it fades (i'm not saying EVERYTHING needs a unique death effect but i do think that a lot of enemies should have their own death). I feel this kind of feature is so important in this sort of game, thats why i've been banging on about it for so long. Every time i've seen a demo for Bloodstained i've seen little evidence of this (seen some things like on minerva the dullahammer kind of collapses which is nice) mostly stuff just fades to red and vanishes in a pretty unsatisfying way, which always troubled me. I thought to myself "they must be adding in animations gore/particle effects later because they MUST ALREADY KNOW how necessary this kind of thing is; i mean they're developing a game for IGA, right?" but then footage of different locations came out and once again i saw very little flair or theatre in the way things die they just kind of curl up and fade away. So as time has gone on my worries on this issue have grown. If anything i'd say it's my biggest concern for Bloodstained - it certainly has a lot of potential to effect my enjoyment of the game if it's not done right. I dont think it would be too hard to fix, even at this late stage in development, just add some particle effects (whatever's appropriate) to an enemies death animation as they fade with a strong sound effect, (maybe a cry of pain maybe the sound of some spurting or spraying - whatever's appropriate for the particular monster). So sound and visuals working together is important for satisfying feedback but will stress again it's the variation in enemy deaths thats important regardless of how you do it. Now my little rant about Deaths is out of the way i can address the other question of making an attack on an enemy seem satisfying, i think you need to take cues from martial arts (I have black belt in ju-jitsu so have some experience in this area) a strike is often accompanied by a vocalisation which will tense the abdominal muscle incase of a counter-attack, thankfully i have seen evidence of this in Bloodstained footage so you guys are already on top of this. If enemies are tough to bring down perhaps they could have a "staggered" animation where they are reeling from a player attack and vulnerable to crit. Again i think its about sound and visual cues working together so visual effects for weapon strikes, bigger number to show crits maybe extra animation on an enemy if its hit with elemental vulnerablitity. Perhaps you might wanna read this thread where some interesting discussion was had regarding player feedback, despite certain (now deleted) people being ill mannered and unhelpful.
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Post by Enkeria on Dec 12, 2017 8:45:34 GMT -6
It seems there is variety in the deaths of the enemies.But what you guys have seen so far, does it satisfy enough?Enemies, going up in smoke without any additional effect more than they "fade away" or "burns up softly" is what we might have in many cases when we perhaps KICK an enemy to death..So the question is, how do we make the death more satisfying?I suggested some but here are a smaller break of it all.- Leaving a corpse behind is more "meaty" than see a corpse disappear, unless that corpse is a spectral or spirit of some kind.
- Blood on walls, floor and around the victim is an additional feature that would satisfy hardcore-gamers that are into it, even if the corpse just "fell down in a pile".
- If using a heavy attack, make the corpse actually fly / knockback accordingly based on the thrust of attack vs. mass
- Elemental attack which is the weakness of that monster (fire vs ice etc.) would indicate with critical hits, and / or final blow could add additional sound fx, short ones based on the weapon or item you used, instead of having a library for 100 enemies, how about 25 sfx based on weapon-type instead. Blunt, Cut, Fire, Frost. etc. - Even if the corpse just fell down
- If an enemy burst in flames and just goes away in the wind, let us actually see it was at least in pain before it went.
- Example: Morte, if it were to wave around it arms like crazy when it's head is cut off, we know its in pain, and it would be more satisfying in a way.
- Example II: Morte get a slide-kick to it and get stunned. Do not let it burn up! Make it regret it never saw it by struggling to stay in shape but inevitably just go reversed into a goo again and disappear like it came!
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Dec 12, 2017 9:35:44 GMT -6
Perhaps you might wanna read this thread where some interesting discussion was had regarding player feedback, despite certain (now deleted) people being ill mannered and unhelpful. Oh wow yeah, that was a good thread, and not just because it's me saying "eVerY GaMe sHouLD bE DArK sOULs". [HASH]everygameshouldbedarksouls ...I actually knock something about them there, and I think Angel would agree: the blessed/holy weapons don't have any discernible visual difference to their attacks. Just normal-looking weapons with an added damage paramter. Where's the holy light? Having monsters flash a specific color or having an elemental effect show up when we hit a weakness still sounds good to me. Perhaps even some Mega Man boss style reactions where using certain types of attacks change or remove certain parts of enemies (and if enemy part-specific crafting drops are still a thing, maybe this would be the only way to get certain parts). Having profound effects on what you're hitting is a big part of the satisfaction we're after. The SotN bloody zombie was not just a spectacle for how it dies, but also with each hit there was an obvious amount of feedback with blood sprays. Gross, but also so well put together in sound, attack feedback, death and flame disintegration. He was essentially a showcase of the prowess of the designers.
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Post by allooutrick on Dec 12, 2017 9:47:04 GMT -6
Glancing over this thread. I'm seeing a lot of mention for enemies to be in pain when they die. Why not have some be at peace? Either to be happy to be sent back to their dimension or have the crystal removed from their body. I think variety in death, in more than just expressing pain, can lend a lot to making the game world feel alive.
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Post by Astaroth on Dec 12, 2017 10:52:50 GMT -6
my best advice would be unleash the designers when it comes to enemy death (likely something iga already has done based on the way his games are and the way he talks about approaching game design) because while i can give generic advice like blood for the blood monsters and shattering glass monsters the dev team can delve into the mythology and probably find some pretty interesting ways of killing off the enemies we dont know yet
but im sure with the range of enemies in the game any over the top death can be paired to some enemy (bloody zombies, fountain of blood), having some damage be slightly modified by elemental attacks like a drip effect added to an ice enemy when you hit it with a fire weapon or a spark when you hit a water enemy with electricity and then playing up those effects in a death animation would give the player added feedback on enemy weaknesses, encourage experimentation with gear, and make those weakness deaths more satisfying
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Post by m0nkf15h on Dec 12, 2017 11:35:14 GMT -6
Glancing over this thread. I'm seeing a lot of mention for enemies to be in pain when they die. Why not have some be at peace? Either to be happy to be sent back to their dimension or have the crystal removed from their body. I think variety in death, in more than just expressing pain, can lend a lot to making the game world feel alive. I get what you're saying i really do but i think the satisfaction from this kind of thing is derived from their assorted agonies, from the player perspective it's cathartic that the enemies suffer so. I'll give an example: lets say you come home from a shit day at work and you've been pissed off by a particular colleague you vent your frustrations on these poor enemies so their suffering eases the stress of your day. This is a well known and studied positive effect of video games in general. Having said this it's an interesting idea that some enemies would want to be killed, if this were the case though i think it should tie into the broader themes or the plot of the game in some way. Perhaps this is worth exploring in more depth and maybe this concept deserves it's own thread.
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Post by Busterific on Dec 12, 2017 13:10:41 GMT -6
Glancing over this thread. I'm seeing a lot of mention for enemies to be in pain when they die. Why not have some be at peace? Either to be happy to be sent back to their dimension or have the crystal removed from their body. I think variety in death, in more than just expressing pain, can lend a lot to making the game world feel alive. I'm with you on this. Seems kind of sadistic to want to inflict pain and agony on all the enemies in the game even if it's not real.
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Post by yugosalkins on Dec 12, 2017 14:28:12 GMT -6
It seems there is variety in the deaths of the enemies.But what you guys have seen so far, does it satisfy enough?Enemies, going up in smoke without any additional effect more than they "fade away" or "burns up softly" is what we might have in many cases when we perhaps KICK an enemy to death..So the question is, how do we make the death more satisfying?I suggested some but here are a smaller break of it all.- Leaving a corpse behind is more "meaty" than see a corpse disappear, unless that corpse is a spectral or spirit of some kind.
- Blood on walls, floor and around the victim is an additional feature that would satisfy hardcore-gamers that are into it, even if the corpse just "fell down in a pile".
- If using a heavy attack, make the corpse actually fly / knockback accordingly based on the thrust of attack vs. mass
- Elemental attack which is the weakness of that monster (fire vs ice etc.) would indicate with critical hits, and / or final blow could add additional sound fx, short ones based on the weapon or item you used, instead of having a library for 100 enemies, how about 25 sfx based on weapon-type instead. Blunt, Cut, Fire, Frost. etc. - Even if the corpse just fell down
- If an enemy burst in flames and just goes away in the wind, let us actually see it was at least in pain before it went.
- Example: Morte, if it were to wave around it arms like crazy when it's head is cut off, we know its in pain, and it would be more satisfying in a way.
- Example II: Morte get a slide-kick to it and get stunned. Do not let it burn up! Make it regret it never saw it by struggling to stay in shape but inevitably just go reversed into a goo again and disappear like it came!
I see the video of how the monster just burns away to cinders, that would be satisfying to see if there were a swarm of 10 or so in the same room. Quick death to be able to get to the next enemy as fast as possible, but I can only see this with low level monsters. Enkeria's idea had given me another idea. When the player does that double jump and dive kicks into the head of the enemy, it would be nice to stun lock for a short duration so that it build momentum for another aerial attack. Which is why I really like Enk's slide kick idea. Maybe if there was a critical hit from the slide kick it would cause an enemy to trip and fall? I think we have something going here.
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Redogan
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Post by Redogan on Dec 12, 2017 15:48:08 GMT -6
You really only need to look to SotN for how enemy deaths should be handled. The death animation should be appropriate for the type of enemy. Then I would follow the death animation with the red crystallization (dissolve) of the bodies. Examples of appropriate death animations would be: -skeletons breaking apart with bones scattering -zombies being split in half or dismembered in some way -demons fall to their knees clawing toward Miriam -werewolves fall to their knees looking skyward as they howl and dissolve away -decapitation of various types of enemies is always amazingly satisfying But death animations aside, the sound effects involved with attacking and the death sounds are the most important part. -the sound of the weapon swing -the sound of the weapon connecting with the enemy -the death scream when an enemy dies (this could be a howl, scream, eerie ghost sound, roar, evil laugh, etc) Again, this is another area where SotN was spot on. I can't stress this enough to the development team. Much attention must be given to the music AND the sound effects. Not just in the attacking and death animations, but throughout the entire game. SotN did it right. Bloodstained can too.
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Post by JeffCross on Dec 12, 2017 15:53:03 GMT -6
Glancing over this thread. I'm seeing a lot of mention for enemies to be in pain when they die. Why not have some be at peace? Either to be happy to be sent back to their dimension or have the crystal removed from their body. I think variety in death, in more than just expressing pain, can lend a lot to making the game world feel alive. true... what if some enemies are sent to the afterlife? like some are "redeemed" with certain elements... if they use holy on a tormented soul or something... I don't want them to be in pain all the time as long as the death animations are unique.
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Post by spideryfingers on Dec 12, 2017 17:26:49 GMT -6
What about a prolonged death? ... The enemy gets hit, drops his or her weapon and staggers away for 10+ seconds before perishing. Perhaps a beg for mercy could even be employed.
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Post by CastleDan on Dec 13, 2017 11:45:55 GMT -6
Attacking
Even though this point will go against a later point I make I think it might be cool if when you hit an enemy or where you hit an enemy you see a crystalization effect spread through the body from that point of impact and then go away. So basically doing away with how IGA and the team used to do it with the enemy blinking white or whatever color but instead an actually effect happening. You can change the crystal effect depending on the type of weapon or spell. Animation should happen quickly tho. However, I'd say the attacking is fine it's more the death animations that need work to me.
Variety
That's all it takes to make it interesting. Currently seeing a lot of the enemies die and burn away into golden specs has been plain. Dying according to what they are is super important.
Skeleton - breaks into bones. Bloody Zombie - Naturally explodes with blood flying everywhere Bomber - explodes Harpie or birds- Feathers explode into different directions.
That makes things interesting because part of the fun was always seeing what each enemies animations looked like whether in life or death. As far as audio cues I think just the voice samples they typically make and a sound when they die would suffice. ( not sure if that's already in it or not but yeah)
Now a critical thing and this is just my opinion but it's a big deal to me.
The shards being implemented into the design of the game can be a killer of variety. I love the theme, I think it's good to have a theme and it's good to have touches of that theme presented in the game but I think it's important that a gameplay gimmick doesn't completely take over the game. You see it with the familiars having a crystal form ( which is fine if eventually you can actually see the design ).
A more glaring example is the Bloodless boss. A hindering quality of using a design gimmick that would kill variety is if all the bosses die into a shard of crystals like the Bloodless does. Even if the WAY it happens is different you're killing the variety of the game due to a design gimmick. Instead of the joy of seeing a boss die in a truly unique way it HAS to be involving the visual design idea.
Now, that's me assuming all the bosses do that but it's a good example of a problem I would have. The joy of seeing a boss die in their own way is enjoyable to me.....So I would argue that it's important to have balance because you don't want to limit what you can show.
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Post by freddythemonkey on Dec 13, 2017 14:47:14 GMT -6
Definitely a unique animation per enemy. Most of theme should be centered around the crystal, but everything is cool as long as it's unique. An extra animation per enemy "weakness" would be the best of the best. For attacking, as many mentioned, the feel and weight of the weapons should be good, and the SFXs for every type of damage should be chunky and appropriate. As an extra, interactive damage numbers would be very fun. For example, a fiery color and flamey effect for fire damage, light blue and crackles for electric damage, and so on. The number flashing and shattering like crystal on the killing blow, too! As for the matter of violence: I think no one is suggesting gratuitous violence and gore on Manhunt levels, but we are an heroine sent to kill nasty demons, not to have tea with them they are, I think, inherently evil in the concept, there is no moral involved, so they are kind of walking punching bags. Vanquishing them should feel really fun and good, and sometimes a touch of blood and a LITTLE extra violence is what you need! IMO at least
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Redogan
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Post by Redogan on Dec 13, 2017 15:04:44 GMT -6
I disagree about the damage numbers having effects. The reason is that effects on the damage numbers would make the font look different. And I really like the damage number font the way it is. It is clear and easy to read. It would become unclear and fuddled with elemental effects on the numbers.
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Post by ReySol on Dec 13, 2017 15:56:54 GMT -6
Each enemy should have a different death animation, which is related to its build, personality or magic. I agree, all you need to do is look at SotN and many of you have provided good examples. If all enemies die the same way it is boring and lifeless. I would prefer to have 20 enemies done amazingly than 100 enemies that are a rush job. Quality is so much more important than quantity. Even if the game comes out later than Q1 2018, I prefer this game to have high quality.
I like the damage numbers as they are, consistent and unobtrusive. If anything, the color can vary based on various factors.
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Post by Yän on Dec 13, 2017 17:08:03 GMT -6
Redogan I don't think it has to become unclear. Look at the damage numbers and their effects in Curse of Darkness. They look clear to me but definitely more animated and satisfying than what we currently have in Bloodstained. Right now the numbers just kind of pop out. I think that can definitely be improved. Even a fade or shrinking in the end would be better. I don't think the font has to change for that at all.
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Post by JeffCross on Dec 13, 2017 17:38:07 GMT -6
ok this a small thing... this is only for the nintendo switch version... but HD rumble would be perfect for this game. like if you hit bones it will feel crackly and brittle, if you hit something like mortes it will feel like hitting mud or liquid tar... I don't know if it will be in there but HD rumble would be awesome and make killing enemies very satisfying.
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Post by Enkeria on Dec 13, 2017 18:41:35 GMT -6
What about a prolonged death? ... The enemy gets hit, drops his or her weapon and staggers away for 10+ seconds before perishing. Perhaps a beg for mercy could even be employed. Naa.. Imagine 50 + enemies in same frame. Which one have you actually hit? I would think if they staggered about 1 sec, then.. ok.. I disagree about the damage numbers having effects. The reason is that effects on the damage numbers would make the font look different. And I really like the damage number font the way it is. It is clear and easy to read. It would become unclear and fuddled with elemental effects on the numbers. When I play games with numbers, I never see them. People ask me sometimes or during streams "woah! crit hit!" I am thinking "really? cool!". Those numbers doesn't mean much to me either. If there is a way to turn them off, I always do!
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Post by Pure Miriam on Dec 14, 2017 1:48:20 GMT -6
Considering all the feedback, i believe most of us agree on a main point, that each enemy must have, at least, a unique death animation that matches it's personality. It has been like this in ALL Igavanias thus far, and there is no reason for Bloodstained to be any different.
I proposed that each enemy could have two types of deaths, it's unique death and a special death if the enemy has a weakness and is killed by it, but considering the time and what the dev team can do, i believe we all agree that, at least, regarding death animations, each enemy must have a unique death animation.
It's good all of us kinda agrees on the same point.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Dec 14, 2017 7:17:13 GMT -6
Double Post! (yes, i know this is a crime for forums, but anyways)
I talked with my brother, wanting the feedback of someone outside the Igavania fandom (he likes Castlevania games, but it isn't a diehard fan)
Here goes:
"I think the game is good as it is. The animations are solid, i see absolutely no problem at all with how the attacks are being delivered and the death animations looks good to me. Each enemy already have a specific death animation that is quick, elegant and satisfiying. Vanishing in red ashes is symbolic to the fact that all enemies comes from hell itself. Overloading the game with overly detailed death animations can bring the FPS down and cause slowdown. Also, the game must be different from Castlevania somehow so, copying everything, downright to death animations, would not be good. So, in short terms, i can't see a problem with attacks and death animations how they are now."
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