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Post by freddythemonkey on Nov 2, 2017 4:04:14 GMT -6
Now that I have rewatched the video on PC, I have to say most of what I see is really cool, but I am completely, 100% with CastleDan regarding the mace and the jump. They are way, way too quick. The jump especially was in line with what we always got so it puzzles me why Miriam should now have this kind of teleportation powers. "The complaints that possibly fueled these changes were bad complaints to begin with." <---- this is GOSPEL.
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Post by Ryngar Acia on Nov 2, 2017 4:12:09 GMT -6
Just some random thoughts...
Gears of Fortune sounds alot like a track from an Ys game, to me. (Not a bad thing at all)
..I wonder if any of those vines or branches will be burnable?
That hat looks adorable..
... and Zangetsu looks ferocious! @_@
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Post by m0nkf15h on Nov 2, 2017 5:35:18 GMT -6
Looks pretty good as far as i can see. Generally the graphics are nice and i like the new music, one thing bothers me a little though - enemies just seem to fade-to-red and disappear, i'd really love to see some traditional unique death animations for different enemy types (things exploding in a shower of blood or bursting into flame etc.) instead of just fading away. Yes i know i've said this before but i think it's an important detail that helps keep the combat feeling fresh.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Nov 2, 2017 5:55:44 GMT -6
Official youtube channel for Bloodstained is interacting and answering some comments. By the way it is answering, i can guess it's Angel from 505 games but i don't really know. Anyways, i don't know if many of you saw that, but pay attention to some of the comments and answers. Lots of worries and doubts are being answered there. Take a look:
About Death animations, the fact that the scenario looks empty and worries about a new delay for the game's release:
About overall polish (first answer), water graphics (second answer) and reaction to negative feedback (third answer)
About Miriam's speed
About Zangetsu being playable
About the camera being closer to Miriam
There's much more, of course. I just pointed these out to alert you all that a lot of doubts and answers we are seeking are being answered by the official youtube channel at the comments of the Development Update 9 video. That's also point out that almost every kind of feedback is being passed to the dev team.
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Post by neff on Nov 2, 2017 6:56:44 GMT -6
A zoom in feature would be fantastic.
As far as Zangetsu not having holy, well, he is from the far east. I think it is more likely he is the character with a holy trinity of a different kind: fire/ice/lightning. If he is a playable character it would help him against enemies with certain resistances.
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Post by XombieMike on Nov 2, 2017 6:57:50 GMT -6
... Speaking of Zangetsu, the phrase he speaks during his dodging move is also quite similar to Julius Belmont's. As any of us who've played the Sorrow games may have already figured out by now, Omnia Vanitas is Latin for "All Is Vanity". ^ Zangetsu says "Ku-Soku-Ze-Shiki", which I believe literally means "all is vanity". It's one-half of a Zen Buddhist chant. Mana may correct me on this if I'm wrong, since I'm not actually fluent in Japanese. The only reason I know this at all is due to one friend of mine being a Buddhist (there's even a small Buddhist temple just a few blocks from my house in Maryland), AND because I often played as Yoshimitsu in the Soul Calibur games back then (before I ever played the Sorrow duology of Castlevania games). The character tends to say "Shiki-Soku-Ze-Ku" ("matter is void") after winning. Wow, you and theplottwist are really sharp! He noticed this too and expanded upon similarities between Zangetsu and Julius in Discord. I hope he posts that here too.
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fatihG
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Post by fatihG on Nov 2, 2017 8:16:43 GMT -6
My only real complaint is that whoever captured this footage... also captured their mouse cursor during the Zangetsu tease T_T
In regards to all the other complaints... No matter what it is, it is still IGAs vision of what the game should be. At the end of the day whatever goes in game gets the approval of IGA.
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JeffCross
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Post by JeffCross on Nov 2, 2017 8:26:17 GMT -6
JeffCross About the visual representation of equipment, i believe that the game may have an option to hide equipment and such, from Miriam's graphic. After all, the game will also have costumes (such as Pure Miriam costume) and i think costumes override everything else you may be wearing simply because that is how costumes works in most games. xd Thank you Pure Miriam for the response, and yeah that makes sense
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Nov 2, 2017 8:29:52 GMT -6
"The complaints that possibly fueled these changes were bad complaints to begin with." heheheh ye--ahem *stuffs elitism away* PM, yeah that's Angel, and it's funny to me how after he responds, the majority of commenters reply back very positively. Lots of great responses, he's doing overtime in there. Well, I think he's always doing overtime... That comment about Zangetsu being playable is...interesting? Warning us to not assume things? Regarding the minimap, I don't really care for it. Never really wanted/needed one before, and I only used the other games' when I had to. I imagine that select or another button will toggle between off, mini and full screen. I can't remember if that was already how it was in the demo or not...
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Post by Cplus on Nov 2, 2017 10:44:36 GMT -6
I like the minimap I think it's more convenient to get 100% map completion instead of always having to open up the full map just to see what little boxes you're missing on the stage. For example in Symphony of the Night the water area I have to keep opening up the map to make sure that I got every single little Square in my path for the area. I think the best way would just be to make it optional whether or not you want the mini map on or off. For me I'm going to be playing with it on all the time.
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Enkeria
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Post by Enkeria on Nov 2, 2017 10:56:02 GMT -6
Just wondering if there will be an option to make headgear invisible... In this latest showcase, you can see her standard headgear finally being in the inventory. This means, you should be able to pick "nothing" and end up with only hair. Something that we could not in E3 Demo 2016, but maybe E3 demo 2017?!krystal / Enkeria / Yän About the minimap, personally, i really like the idea of having a minimap at the screen. I figured, since IGA now have a wider screen to "fill", the minimap have really been in many of the development videos. I do not know if this map is even in the E3 2017 Demo, if no.. Then I would think the map would have been just for the devs. But thinking about it, why show it for the public if so?
Naa, this should really be an option! Press 'Select' to showcase the whole map at all times, but with the option to either have a map, a semi-transparent map and nothing in that top right corner. This should be a request if not, because we love options. Options is life!
About Miriam's speed
About Zangetsu being playable
About the camera being closer to Miriam Yeah.. The speed is the same as Alucard. Do not know why people still are complaining. That is so 2016!
Zangetsu as playable would be nice. I can totally see his Sword being imbued with different sub-elements instead of sub-weapons. I noticed he is attacking with frozen effects, but we have yet to see those "electric oni-cards" he has up his sleeve. I hope we can play as him, and Dominique.
Camera.. Options is LIFE!
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Post by CastleDan on Nov 2, 2017 11:02:06 GMT -6
I wanna talk about somethings that people have mentioned. CastleDan I agree with you, regarding Mace's speed and i understand from where you criticism comes when talking about the mace's attack speed. The thing is, when you have several different weapon types, they must be more than just raw damage power and damage type. Considering the game's official types of of weapons and considering what Igavanias had made before, i believe they could be different considering potential damage, speed and range. If mace is faster, i believe Swords and Knives are even faster now. Because, overall, weapons in Igavanias are different by basic things such as "slow but strong", "weak but fast" and "average" and things like that. Yän About Death animations, i agree with you. I really hope that's because it's still alpha, but most Igavanias had cool death animations, with fire, explosion, screams and things like that. Although i hope they are going to change that, i'm also a bit worried because i remember that people had another discussion in the past about the dev team putting equipments that you pick up, to be visible like most Igavanias before, and not always hidden in treasures or bags. At the time, i remember saying that this could be to save resources, without the need to create separate models just to use as graphic for equipment lying around. They didn't change that. Equipments are still inside bags and treasure chests (although you can see them flying for some seconds when you pick them up now). I hope the discussion about death animations doesn't turn up being the same as the discussion about equipment graphics lying around... krystal / Enkeria / Yän About the minimap, personally, i really like the idea of having a minimap at the screen. It helps so much to navigate around, without the need to stop all the action just to check where you are at the map. Having the option of turning it off could be a good idea, but completely removing it, no. I agree with Enkeria. Options are always good. But yeah, personally, i very much prefer the minimap to stay than to not stay. JeffCross About the visual representation of equipment, i believe that the game may have an option to hide equipment and such, from Miriam's graphic. After all, the game will also have costumes (such as Pure Miriam costume) and i think costumes override everything else you may be wearing simply because that is how costumes works in most games. I think my problem with the mace is the animation makes it feel too much like she's swinging a sword. Now I'm nitpicking to all hell with this but it is in fact one of the reasons why SOTN is so good to me. There's a real difference to the feel/sound and look of certain weapon types. Heavier weapons appear heavier in the way the arch when Alucard attacks. There's a difference. So it's not so much the mace not being slow enough it just doesn't feel different enough to a normal sword to me. So my only cons out of all of this: 1. The game needs more color, it's all too grey. It's the same problem I had with Mirror of Fate it's like the minute these games become 3D they look all washed out and have a lack of color. I remember thinking about the church and going why is there so much grey, there's potential for so much color in crosses, in drapes.....in what have you. Look at the tile, look at the lighting on the pillars, look at the background - I KNOW THIS ONE HAS BEEN UPDATED BUT IT SERVES AS A GOOD EXAMPLE:
^ It's so grey that when I originally saw it I thought did they not color it yet? That's the problem with a lot of what I've seen it looks so without color that it almost seems like it wasn't implemented, and if it wasn't then that's good news. If it was intentional than there's way too little color for something that could do so well with color. Color goes a long way with these locations. If the reason is they're trying to go for a moody look, you can do moody and still have color, just gotta up the atmosphere. Look at how cold it is here though without all of that. Even if the original pic area is still in there these rooms could use more life to them. ( or just less copy and repeats) 2. The death animations as others have said, I wonder are the disappearing animations placeholder or are they official death animations? I feel like there could be a more interesting way for things to generically die than the kinda fall down and vanish into golden specks. ( nitpick ) 3. The Mace animations essentially just being like a sword. Hey, in the grand scheme of things these are quite minor.
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Post by Yän on Nov 2, 2017 11:10:54 GMT -6
I wanna talk about somethings that people have mentioned. CastleDan I agree with you, regarding Mace's speed and i understand from where you criticism comes when talking about the mace's attack speed. The thing is, when you have several different weapon types, they must be more than just raw damage power and damage type. Considering the game's official types of of weapons and considering what Igavanias had made before, i believe they could be different considering potential damage, speed and range. If mace is faster, i believe Swords and Knives are even faster now. Because, overall, weapons in Igavanias are different by basic things such as "slow but strong", "weak but fast" and "average" and things like that. Yän About Death animations, i agree with you. I really hope that's because it's still alpha, but most Igavanias had cool death animations, with fire, explosion, screams and things like that. Although i hope they are going to change that, i'm also a bit worried because i remember that people had another discussion in the past about the dev team putting equipments that you pick up, to be visible like most Igavanias before, and not always hidden in treasures or bags. At the time, i remember saying that this could be to save resources, without the need to create separate models just to use as graphic for equipment lying around. They didn't change that. Equipments are still inside bags and treasure chests (although you can see them flying for some seconds when you pick them up now). I hope the discussion about death animations doesn't turn up being the same as the discussion about equipment graphics lying around... krystal / Enkeria / Yän About the minimap, personally, i really like the idea of having a minimap at the screen. It helps so much to navigate around, without the need to stop all the action just to check where you are at the map. Having the option of turning it off could be a good idea, but completely removing it, no. I agree with Enkeria. Options are always good. But yeah, personally, i very much prefer the minimap to stay than to not stay. JeffCross About the visual representation of equipment, i believe that the game may have an option to hide equipment and such, from Miriam's graphic. After all, the game will also have costumes (such as Pure Miriam costume) and i think costumes override everything else you may be wearing simply because that is how costumes works in most games. I think my problem with the mace is the animation makes it feel too much like she's swinging a sword. Now I'm nitpicking to all hell with this but it is in fact one of the reasons why SOTN is so good to me. There's a real difference to the feel/sound and look of certain weapon types. Heavier weapons appear heavier in the way the arch when Alucard attacks. There's a difference. So it's not so much the mace not being slow enough it just doesn't feel different enough to a normal sword to me. True, but I feel like the difference was even greater in the DS-games with those huge overhead swings for heavy weapons like that. Also, can we talk about how much less interesting these gifs would have been if both of these enemies would just have disappeared with a flamy-effect all the same? This stuff really shows how important individual, detailed death animations and effects can be.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Nov 2, 2017 11:25:51 GMT -6
They could potentially differentiate maces by ways other than speed. They generally weigh approximately the same thing as one-handed swords, so they're not really inherently slower realistically. They're most often weaker in these games by default than all other weapon types, no need to gimp them unnecessarily.
Great gifs, castledan. Just as we've said before, the look, sound and feel of each weapon is really important - such as indeed that Alucard Sword sound effect. Unique to only it and the sword familiar. Glorious.
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Post by CastleDan on Nov 2, 2017 11:27:32 GMT -6
I think my problem with the mace is the animation makes it feel too much like she's swinging a sword. Now I'm nitpicking to all hell with this but it is in fact one of the reasons why SOTN is so good to me. There's a real difference to the feel/sound and look of certain weapon types. Heavier weapons appear heavier in the way the arch when Alucard attacks. There's a difference. So it's not so much the mace not being slow enough it just doesn't feel different enough to a normal sword to me. True, but I feel like the difference was even greater in the DS-games with those huge overhead swings for heavy weapons like that. Also, can we talk about how much less interesting these gifs would have been if both of these enemies would just have disappeared with a flamy-effect all the same? This stuff really shows how important individual, detailed death animations and effects can be. Check out my updated post, I added some more thoughts about things. You are right that the overhead was even more noticable but that animation always looked incredibly awkward and stiff to me, and the sound effect accompanying it never sold me on the heaviness of the attack. It's funny that in SOTN they didn't have to alter the look TOO much and yet the power of a sound effect and a slightly adjusted animation made it FEEL heavy and powerful. Goes to show you just slight adjustments can do a lot. purifyweirdshard I think more than anything it doesn't need a speed change but in the moon rod gif it's more about the snap feel to it. Does that make any sense? Like you get a sense of the weight of the top of it by how the animation pauses upon impact a bit before it releases away a very clever way to depict power. Maybe that is about speed but that sorta animation does a good job depicting power compared to just a normal sword. You are right though that sound can go along way as well.
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Nov 2, 2017 11:46:29 GMT -6
Yeah I caught that right away from your post earlier, the moon rod and iirc the star flail animate that way and it makes them stand out - maybe partially to show the design of the weapon. WE see much more of the rods sprite-wise than the swords. Animation differences can be made without per se being a detriment to speed, too. They could do more damage as well, of course, but that has to take into consideration how the movement/jump tech will affect the damage dealt (generally fast weapons do more than intended, slower less).
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Post by neff on Nov 2, 2017 12:00:50 GMT -6
To people talking about the death animations, keep in mind they have several to conceive of, assuming they are doing what they did with seama. I'm a little curious with what they will do with Miriam though. There is some variation, given the sounds of a final blood splattering, though I wonder in what shape will other deaths take? If she took that Ice attack last, would she turn into a Gothcicle?
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Post by Yän on Nov 2, 2017 12:10:46 GMT -6
I agree with Castledan that more colour in general would be great.
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LeoLeWolferoux
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Nov 2, 2017 12:27:46 GMT -6
-Points of interest- 1. Zangetsu confirmed as a boss. 2. Multiple changes to Miriam's Parameter page. (Menu screen) - Mana bar has changed from blue, to blue\purple
- New items confirmed, including BEAST BERET, MACE, and ARIES HORNS
- Parameter page has been updated to include firearms ammunition.
3. New BARBATOS and TOAD enemies.
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Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
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[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
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Post by Pure Miriam on Nov 2, 2017 12:54:56 GMT -6
About weapon attack speed and weapons overall. I want to better explain my view regarding this, also to serve as a potential feedback. This post will be a bit long and will be full of gifs, so, it may take a while to load. I'm going to use the development update that talked about weapons, to better communicate how i see things regarding Bloodstained weapons, their attacking speed and how to differentiate them. Please remember that these gifs are taken from the development video 5 and that video may not be recorded with the game's actual FPS, that alone may give a difference regarding overall animation speed. Even so, i think it's a good thing to compare weapons and i'm using that to better illustrate my opinions about them. Also, keep in mind that the full weapon types was revealed AFTER that video, at the content contributor's thread update, that grouped them by animation, like this: 1.) Kick (Shoes) 2.) Single Handed Slash (Single Handed Swords, Maces) 3.) Single Handed Pierce (Knives, Rapiers) 4.) Two Handed Slash (Great Swords, Axes) 5.) Upward Diagonal Slash (Katana) 6.) Two Handed Pierce (Two Handed Spears) 7.) Whipping (Whips) 8.) Shooting (Guns) : Consumable bullets That's why the gifs below are considering, also, weapons that aren't shown at the gifs themselves. As a last one, consider "average" to be swords. So, everything "above" or "below" average, considers swords as the weapon to be compared to, since i consider swords to be the default average weapon of any Igavania that has weapon choices. And, of course, nothing of that considers weapons tiers (a knife found at a late part of the game will always be stronger than your first sword). All that i say below is considering weapons inside the same overall tier. Here goes: Kick / Shoes
I consider Shoes to have a below average damage potential, and, as we can see by the gif, also a weapon with a below average attacking speed too and a below average range. What could make them special is that you can (as shown at E3 2017 Demo) double jump and kick an enemy to gain an aditional jump, to reach high places. And you can also keep kicking enemies without falling down. That would be their main difference to compensante for ther flaws.
Single Handed Swords and Maces
Swords are the average weapon choice for most gamers in Igavanias, and i don't see why it shouldn't be here for Bloodstained too. Swords should have average damage, average attacking speed and average range, as it seems to be the case for now. The jack-of-all trades. The safe choice if you want a good, reliable weapon. Also, i tend to believe that swords will be the majority of weapons in Bloodstained, as it was in most other Igavanias. As said above, the same animation used for swords is used for maces, maybe that's why maces seem faster now. Maybe, they made swords and maces have the same attacking speed. We don't really know without comparisons. For me, maces should be overall stronger, but slower. Katanas
We already know that the strongest weapon of the game will be a Katana. With that said, i expect them to have a high damage, below average speed and average range, like swords. So, they are more powerful than swords, but lacks on attacking speed, you can see that as you compare the animation of both of them, by the gifs. (Fightning against Zangestu with a Katana should give an achievment!). Great Swords and Axes
Great swords and Axes should be, as anyone can see, powerful, with, maybe, the highest damage potential, slowest speed and above average range, specially considering you can poentially hit airbone enemies with this. Great Swords and Axes are, normally, and unfortunately, underrated weapons, that even some games doesn't seem to know how to give them a good potential. I hope Bloodstained gives us great choices for Great swords and Axes. I believe that Axes should be a bit more powerful than Great Swords overall, but also a bit slower. Knives and Rapiers Lowest damage, fastest attack speed, worst range. I don't have much to say about knives and rapiers, just that, with skilled players, they can turn into powerful weapons, by attacking at a high speed, dodging, jumping and moving around. That's the whole idea to fight with a knife or a rapier, at least, i think. I believe rapiers should have a higher range, but a lower attack speed. Spears
Spears seems like an oddball at games like this. They normally aren't very good (at least for me), so, i would love to see Bloodstained making them useful, maybe by giving them a high damage, to compensante for the below average attacking speed, combined with an above average range that they have. Another type of weapon i hope we have a good selection. Guns
Very few Igavania games had guns, so, this is something really new to the series, in a way. I expect guns to have an above average damage, high speed and the highest range of all weapons in the game. That could make guns overpowered, but they have ammo, and part of their power and / or element depends on the ammo they are equipped with (at least, that's the information that we have for now) that could hinder part of their power. That's what i believe, at least. Whips
The main reason whips are in Bloodstained is because they are a classic weapon from Igavanias. Considering they legendary status among Igavania fans, i expect whips to be varied, really useful and great to use. I hope they have at least an average damage, below average attacking speed and an above average range. That could put them in a balanced status, being another safe option besides swords.
So, overall, this is how i think the weapons should be. That's a personal opinion, based on what we know so far, and what i would expect.
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