Extra playable characters: How it was, how it should be

Thanks Pure Miriam for making this topic (I've been meaning to but never got around doing so)

I really hope that the extra characters can level up and can equip items in Bloodstained.
In previous Igavania titles there was really no incentive to explore the castle as the extra characters since you couldn't find any items of value.
You just dashed to the bosses as fast as you could.

I don't think the extra mode need new dialogue and fleshed out story but a new end boss (like in DoS) would be nice.

Ofcourse they should focus on Miriam mode but like I said at the very least give the extra characters an equip screen.

I also want leveling because it makes the combat more satisfying and rewarding. Or they should have some other reward system for combat like leveling up specific weapons or magical attack the more they are used etc. I don't want to feel like all my fighting is pointless which is the case if enemies don't drop anything and I can't level up through fighting.

When it comes down to it, and especially in the longterm, story doesn't matter. it's better for extra characters to not have a story focused version of the campaign. The point is the freedom to play as the extra characters players want, for fun, not for story. there could be a glossary or side option that may paint a general background description of each character, though it doesn't need to whip up some contrived backstory and social interactions and development for players to care about a character.

History in the industry has shown that story adds restrictions and limitations to fun and ways to play a game more than anything else.
look at massively successful games like Playerunknown's Battlegrounds, different genre, however, it still brings up how most players care about gameplay, and play a game LONGER and more times the less story driven it is, since story just gets in the way

. Stories have an ending, but gameplay undisturbed by storytelling, have more open value and more freedoms. even Dark Souls games, the best ones are more open gameplay instead of linear story rails (which is why Dark Souls 1 and II are still superior to Dark Souls III.) and those games still thrive without so much focus on story nor character background. It's better for the player to interpret and conceive their own ideas of what kind of deeper story and history are within each character.

and games are better when stories are not force fed. they can sprinkle the lore and character depth in ways that don't involve cutscenes or even talking.

Stories have really harmed games from being better.

Look at SOTN/DXC SOTN, the extra characters can't even fight boss fights like Werewolf and Minotaur, Death, Dracula, Succubus, etc. because those type of boss fights are story event triggered and the way the game was designed. so what players are left with instead is an empty or inaccessible boss rooms, and less fights for the extra characters. so story does hurt and limit gameplay in lots of ways.

Also for leveling, it depends on the balancing. extra characters Richter (SOTN) and Maria (NITM/DXC SOTN), are balanced so well it's possible to beat every boss without needing level ups, items, nor equip upgrades, and there are still ways to restore HP. and no equip menu actually made the pacing of those extra characters more flowing, not cumbersome, and no stop and go pause between the action, their arsenal is basically fully available without needing to hop back and forth between menu and action.

Though yes Nocturne in the Moonlight is better than how SOTN and DXC SOTN did things without requiring beating the game and then a specific password to play as a specific extra character, NITM provided all extra playable characters selectable from the start (which is much better, and the select screen is gorgeous)

Star Fox 2 is another example of good extra characters, anyone is choosable from the start, no matter who's the protagonist of the plot and stuff, the game leaves it all up to the player which of the 6 characters is the lead character and their partner is in their playthrough.

Castlevania Harmony of Despair is another great example, letting players choose their character from the start.
yea it wasn't a narrative focused game, but that actually made it much greater. You know the original Castlevania wasn't so obsessed with storytelling. it had an overall scenario and objective, but the rest is up to interpretation.

yes, Bloodstained has its protagonist and all, but really, it wouldn't hurt it to feature all extra playable characters from the start, it gives players more flexibility and gameplay freedom to play as the character(s) they prefer, especially if their favorite happens to be an extra character, and would make the game more appealing and marketable to wider demographics, while still featuring Miriam for those that want a little more story with their gameplay too.

while I didn't like how tacked on and gimmicky Sisters mode gameplay was in PoR (especially with that oversimplified touchscreen OP attack system and floating that made everything a breeze), I appreciated both Stella and Loretta being playable at all.
They had their own version of the campaign with some light storytelling bits, though overall, extra characters can still have meaning and fun factor and replay value incentives without storytelling. Look at Rondo Richter and Maria, as well as Axe Armor, also extra characters in PoR, and they make the game better with more different playable characters variety to choose from.

I think Bloodstained may use the usual "beat the game once as Miriam before extra characters can be selectable".
though whether extra characters level up and stuff, they'll make things balanced so the entire castle is beatable as any of the characters.

Also the developers have a lot on their plate with also bosses going to be playable in their own mode and area,
so that's a lot of gameplay, balancing, and movesets to consider. I'm sure Bloodless will be one of the playable characters
in at least Boss Revenge Mode. and storytelling and chatter really aren't necessary to make boss characters have meaning
and stuff. IGAvanias really shine through the gameplay and players own interpretation of how the characters think and feel.
Storytelling just slaps contrived wind bag stuff that most people would rather skip anyways. narrative really is filler compared to
the gameplay and gameplay content aspects that makes the game worthwhile in the first place.

At this rate, in total, Bloodstained could amount to having over 6 playable characters (counting bosses), the fanbase shouldn't pressure them into making the mistake of adding story to the extra playables version of the gameplay/campaign.

the main campaign extra characters should be adaptable to Miriam's campaign playthrough, so they can explore and beat everything too.

and the playable boss characters should get their own epic campaign too, without dumbing down IGAvania fundamentals, and try to make Boss Revenge Mode feel more like the antagonists are the protagonists in their own campaign, instead of just a glorified boss rush or minigame.

if they could do both playable characters and a bit of story, without making sacrifices nor forcing things on rails, then it might be ok, but gameplay and character selection should come first. Every bit of storytelling takes up a lot of time, resources, requires cutting up the gameplay to make room for cinematics, extra voiceovers......... that stuff adds up. All that money and resources is better spent on making the characters have the full Bloodstained world accessible without any cuts to boss fights and stuff.

It's a very sensitive subject, there's lots of ways to screw things up,
but it's better to stick with gameplay and openness instead of small talk.

just let players play as the extra playable characters they want to play as, make it so it's basically Miriam's campaign, except as a chosen extra playable character, with Miriam's story aspects not there, while preserving all the boss fights and stuff.
As for item drops, well considering the extra characters have their own style, it would be too demanding to give each their own equipment pool. they should just have their set signature weapon(s) and moveset, and make it so they can beat all the Miriam campaign content, whether there's level ups or not (though extra characters might be levelable since I think PoR did have level ups for extra characters, so they can resort to that instead of having to deal with a massive equipment pool to sort out.).

and I'm sure the playable bosses in Boss Revenge mode will be effecient with their stats and movesets as well.
Playable bosses are basically monster classes, so they especially don't need an equipment system (that would almost be like making a new game for each one if they resorted to equipment system for each one. anyways bosses/monsters don't fight like humans, they fight with more raw power and physical and magical nature), but I wouldn't mind if they also had a leveling system too. It would be interesting how large an area they have to explore and play in compared to the campaign's world. perhaps it could at least be somewhat feeling like an IGAvania, with villagers and guards for enemies and the hero boss locations spaced out more so the Boss Revenge Mode world is filled with bits of more exploration to it, maybe some platforming as well (Bloodless can jump).
Of course Boss Revenge Mode is an extra mode, but it would be nice if it gets at least half as much IGAvania heart as the main campaign is receiving in world size, exploration size, progression and stuff. even if Boss Revenge mode feels like three Rondo of Blood stages strung together, with backtracking, that's still better than a boss room to boss room minimode.

the extra playable boss characters is the most fascinating thing to me out of all the potential playable experiences Bloodstained can have. Well yes Miriam's campaign will be epic and have the most castle/world to get immersed in, though I still feel Boss Revenge Mode can bring out the most revolutionary and innovative potential for the genre and beyond.

I don't agree with you, krystal. 
You have great games with plots and great games without plots.

Plot doesn't "take away" things from the gameplay. A game is planned with a plot and it's gameplay may addhere to the plot it has. 
The first Doom, back in 1993, has the famous (and naive at the time) quote of John Carmak, from Doom series. "Story in a game is like story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but its not that important". Well, that has been proved wrong countless times through gaming history.
Doom 2016 has a great plot that just adds up to the whole fun of the game, such as transforming the unnamed Marine into "Doom Slayer", the badass demon mass killer that thrives upon everything.

Sure, there are games whose plot get in the way of gameplay, but balacing plot and game is essential for that not to happen.
As i said up there, you have great games with and without plots.

Igavanias works way better with a plot, even if most Igavania's plots aren't all that great by themselves. That's what i think at least.

I feel obligated to post here in regards to the possibilities for whom might be the 2nd & 3rd playable characters, and so I give you all my 2 cents on the following:

- It would definitely be exactly as expected to restrict access to the other two characters until you clear the Story as Miriam; it doesn't deviate from how most past Igavanias handled it, and she is the main protagonist after-all. I've noticed concerns from a few potential players, here and there, that may dislike being initially restricted to one character... but do note that getting any ending in these games will result in unlocking them. It's not like you absolutely needed to 100% the game, or even see the "Best" Ending, to unlock any bonus character in past games.

- In addition to the likelihood (or guarantee) that the other playable characters would be able to level up, increasing stats in an RPG fashion, I think there should also be Level Cap options for them in addition to Miriam (also unlocked after clearing the game as each character at least once). An extra challenge that some players may want, to go along with Difficulty selection.

- I personally don't really mind, in the end, whether or not the 2nd & 3rd characters are so-called Bonus characters. I'm still going to make time to play as them alongside Miriam to get the most out of Bloodstained. While I have suggested in the past that it would at least be interesting for these 2 extra characters to be "fully playable" (needing to explore the Castle for all abilities/skills, equippable gear, having a pause/character menu like Miriam, etc.). Regardless of whether they're "bonus" or "fully playable", I'd also understand if their primary Weapons of choice are limited (using Zangetsu as an example; He may or may not only be permitted to wield Katanas, and perhaps other Japanese-themed weapons, in addition to Ofuda tags if he's playable).
^
I can certainly see the appeal in letting players just freely traverse the Castle ("sequence-breaking"; not really) with all of each character's abilities from the start. Though, if you ask me, I think it would be more interesting to see this happen in Speed Run Mode.

- As far as changing travel-barriers in the Castle ("map modifications") goes, I'd personally prefer that the 2nd & 3rd playable characters be given ways to overcome said obstacles (or traverse them; if you're really forced to instead go around the obstacle).  That being said, I'd still find it interesting if certain small areas could only function depending on the character you're playing as (you'd still get the Map% for exploring the otherwise "empty" area). For Example: Miriam's Room (the proposed idea of a personal room in the Castle that Gebel prepared all for Miriam) <= Whatever function this room may serve for Miriam (other than as an extra Save Room) should only work when playing as Miriam. Maybe there should be other rooms in the Castle that only serve a certain purpose when you play as the other two characters.

- I should also add that there was some story reasoning for Julius Mode in Dawn of Sorrow. It was basically a What-If scenario following the game's Bad Ending (Soma witnesses the death of "Mina" & becomes Dracula once again). While I'm personally not invested in whether the 2nd or 3rd playable character should have any Plot-related reasoning whatsoever for being able to play as them, or there being story scenes during their gameplay, I'd most certainly still be interested to see what they have in store if this turns out to be the case.


(EDIT):  All in all, I'm actually still rooting for Zangetsu's chances as one of the playable characters.

I loved playing as Joachim in that game.  It's a sweet reward for conquering Walter's Castle as Leon Belmont.

Here's a really old video for you:

Ahhh!! That nostalgia!!! Joachim really had such a potential for character expansion and maybe be involved with a prequal to Lament of Innocence!

Another neat feature for extra playable characters could be remixed versions of the original soundtrack to let the players experience the game in a different way through music. For example, when playing as Zangetsu, the soundtrack could incorporate some traditional Japanese instruments.