Forging Officially Confirmed. 10 Questions about it!

Hey, quite a great thread there.

These questions are quite hard to speculate on, so I'll try my best.

1) If forging is recipe-only, people will complain there is not enough freedom in that feature.
If it is trial and error, they will say that it's not original enough... Well, crafting in games never was original as idea, unless there is a special approach to it. I'd say that restrained trial and error with only feasible alchemy processes would be good. No chances to fail it either (unless you'd be able to find items to diminish that).

2) It's all about alchemy, so we are going to deal with alchemy circles, thus most probably if not surely deal with a mini-game.
In the Lost Grimoire series (hidden object games), you had peculiar recipes to find/get given to create materials and solve puzzles at precise points.
For example in the first, you had to rotate molecules to match what symbol is depicted in the drawing. Infinite moves, no time limit. The final one was tough.
As long as it's not about a timer and that it's fun and engaging, I got no problems with it. Some lessons on alchemy and illustrious names would be even better.

3) I am very concerned about leveling gear up. As you can see, we already got equipment evolution.
MMOs (like the one I play daily) sometimes deal with both gear refining and possibly forging to a higher tier. It is obvious to say that both features are time and resource-consuming and that the former is nothing else than gambling...
If refining fails, the piece of equipment downgrades (but it's better than in my previous MMO where it literally had a chance to SHATTER). To prevent this, consumables to prevent it from happening were sold in boutique. Catch my drift?

Anyway, I'd be more okay with the "forging to a higher tier only" solution. It's about obvious that you lose all refining once you make it change shape... or then you have to wait until it's at max refining level before making it evolve... the lost potential would be a source of frustration.

4) I guess that finding a backer weapon as is would be too easy and make too much a difference with a normal one, unless there are fixed drawbacks, so I guess you'd have to forge them.

5) In fact, what would please me the most in there is to gain back a unique forging item you used for a ultimate weapon or armor part. You know... hoarders, rarity-collectors, completionists and all.

6) If the lore says we got to imbue monster essence, I guess it would be possible... But then again, people would say that it's not far from Yoko's soul infusion (Dawn of Sorrow nostalgia, anyone?)...

7) Balanced, like always. ^^

8) I don't think that alchemy should be done anywhere, let's make it usable at save points. Miriam has a pendant or such to teleport her to her lab to craft and back to the save point (also usable as fast warping)... Hmmm...
Oh and returning to the village or having to talk to certain NPCs for forging is so boring, it can kill the mood. Yes, even with a warp point near the shop like in Portrait of Ruin or an item that makes you return to it at any time (CSOTN's Librarian*)

9) It's alchemy. I think you'd be able to craft all sort of things. Even materials from materials. Shards would be excluded, of course. Unless...

10) That would be the basis for element-imbued equipment. Yes. I see it happening.

Enjoy!

*I'm interested in this, but you only buy jewels. Jerk. At least Hammer and subsequent ones did it correctly.

1) Forging will have a "recipe" list, where you can only try what's on that list (obtaining new recipes in the game) or will be a trial-and-error game, losing material when fails?


I believe there will be a recipe list myself, if only because that's how crafting has worked in IGA's past game like DoS, CoD and OoE. 

2) How do you think forging will work? Adding up materials and waiting for the magic to happen? Some kind of complex system revolving around things like weight, balance, maybe a mini game, or something else?


I think it will be simple, just selecting an option to combine a certain weapon with a certain material. 

3) We will be able to level up gear by reforging them with stronger / better materials?


I mean, maybe, but I doubt it. IGA's prior games favored simply finding stronger weapons in a category as opposed to taking any one weapon and making it better. Like, you didn't take a Short Sword and make it better. You'd find a Long Sword, then maybe a Gladius all the way up to a legendary weapon like Hrunting or Cladbolg. I'd expect the same here. 

4) It was confirmed that Bloodstained will have two types of weapons, the common weapons and a special category called "Backer weapons" (temporary name) that are weapons that can be leveled up to be the most powerful weapons in the game. Do you think we will be able to forge just common weapons, backer weapons or both?


I think common and backer both, with Backer weapons like requiring a special rare crystal. But I could also see Backer weapons being purely found via exploring and separate from the crafting system. 

5) Would you like if forging had some kind of one-of-a-kind materials? Things that you can only obtain once and you will be only able to get it again in a new game+?


I fully expect this to be the case: like maybe Vepar's crystal can be used to make one of several strong weapons but obviously you can only get Vepar's crystal once a run (outside maybe Roguelike Mode) 

6) Do you believe that shards will be used on forging somehow? if yes, how?


I actually expect shards to be the main forging component, or at least part of it. Like, Combining a basic weapon with a shard to get a new weapon, or adding an extra step like weapon+material+shard

7) Gear o Bloodstained: Forging-heavy (the majority of equipment will be obtained by forging), picking up heavy (the majority will be obtained at breakable walls, chests, secret rooms), or balanced?


I'd rather it be forging heavy actually. Maybe have a set of basic weapons in the shop and have the bulk of drops be materials and shards to improve them. Dont cut weapons from the castle entirely, that could easily be how Backer weapons fit in. 

8) Miriam will forge equipment herself anywhere (kickstarter says she will use her knowledge in alchemy for it), she will need a special room for it (maybe her own room (there is a talk that Miriam will have a room inside the castle) or some other place) or someone else will do the forging for her? Who? Where?


I think Miriam will need to work with a specific shop or room, forging anywhere was only really done in Curse, the rest focused on using a shop to the best of my memory at the moment. 

9) Only weapons was advertised for forging. Do you believe we will be able to forge overall gear? And potions will be craftable too?


I dont *think* armor will be part of it but it would not surprise me. Also, as much as Alchemy making potions is iconic, I dont expect that really. 

10) About crafting, Kickstarter talks about using "magi-crystals" for it. Magi-crystal is the name of the crystals engulfed on the body of Miriam and Gebel, of their curse. Magi-crystals will be used for forging. Do you believe they will give special effects to the gear (like a fire magi-crystal giving fire protection for an armor and fire elemental attacks for a weapon) or something else?

I've waited till the end here to get at what I think, or hope t least, crafting will be like. Let me make an example here:

1. You buy a basic "Leather Whip" from the shop, which does physical damage. 
2. Later on, you find some "Steel" and at the shop, you combine the Leather Whip with the Steel and make a stronger "Steel Whip" which does more physical damage. 
3. Even later, you find there are two ways to further forge the "Steel Whip"
-> 3a. You can combine the Steel Whip with something like "Mithril" to get an even stronger physical damage "Mithril Whip"
-> 3b. You can combine the Steel Whip with "Vepar's Shard" and thus get the "Aqua Whip" which instead does Elemental Water Damage as opposed to basic physical damage. 
4. The "Aqua Whip" is the end of that chain, but later on you find that you can combine the Mithril Whip with "Bloodess' Shard" shard and get the "Blood Whip" which does Dark Damage and also heals you. 

That's the kind of thing I expect here. 

Sidenotes.

If we can break down items into materials. I would like to do that anywhere.
If I should update or forge an item somehow, I want to do that either at an shop or a special room in the castle.

Also thinking about to update a weapon or armor.

I would like to see the weapons divided into tiers. Each tier having it's own cap. That cap could be like..
White: 1-3 | Rare: 1-5 | Epic: 1-10

So if I find a normal dagger. I want it to gain attack or speed, perhaps "life regen" or any other cool stuff, I can only update that weapon up to 3 times. Epic weapons, can be updated up to 10 times.

However.

There would be a maximum value of each ability that you can upgrade your item into.

White item (Depending on item! Weapon or Armor)
Tier 1 Speed 25% faster | Reload 25% faster | Weapon Damage +1 | Armor Block chance +7% |
Tier 2 Speed 50% faster | Reload 50% faster | Weapon Damage +2 | Armor Block chance +16% |
Tier 3 Speed 75% faster | Reload 75% faster | Weapon Damage +3 | Armor Block chance +25% |

Options: This Whip is cool (white item), I wanna upgrade it. I have enough to do this 3 times to max it out. Now, lets see... I Make so the Damage is +2, and add in Speed 25%, there! Maxed out. 2 tiers of W DMG, 1 tier of Speed = 3 tiers.

Imagine with Rare, which unlock elemental damage / auras and such. And with Epic items that adds bonus-attributes. Perhaps in smaller percentage, but with "more" things to add to a weapon, you can really make your weapon of choice very cool.

This system however would be something to make BEFORE the game is introduced. The general idea is basic, but the development of this tools of trade, would be insane to make!

my thoughts c:

1) Forging will have a "recipe" list, where you can only try what's on that list (obtaining new recipes in the game) or will be a trial-and-error game, losing material when fails?

its an igavania so i will discard trial and error leave that for greedy MMOs Selling "safety" items for real life currency aka microtransactions. Unless they add safety or guaranted succes methods as an in game item or mechanic such as a shard or a special material then i wouldnt mind if we have Trial.

2) How do you think forging will work? Adding up materials and waiting for the magic to happen? Some kind of complex system revolving around things like weight, balance, maybe a mini game, or something else?

since its alchemy i think some kind of minigame would be cool but i think its pretty much get item A+B+C and mix them together to get item D

3) We will be able to level up gear by reforging them with stronger / better materials?

We did tis in dawn of sorrow didnt we? get that johannes to upgrade your weapons with new materials/shards

4) It was confirmed that Bloodstained will have two types of weapons, the common weapons and a special category called "Backer weapons" (temporary name) that are weapons that can be leveled up to be the most powerful weapons in the game. Do you think we will be able to forge just common weapons, backer weapons or both?

irc didnt someone mention that backer weapons would only be available trough cheat codes? or an NPC? i dont think we will be able to manipulate upgradable backer weapons like the standar weapons in the game.

5) Would you like if forging had some kind of one-of-a-kind materials? Things that you can only obtain once and you will be only able to get it again in a new game+?

YES and NO. Going back to my references in Dawn of Sorrow i wanted to collect every single soul on my first run because i knew chaos ring existed and to my surprise some weapons required boss souls in order to be crafted and that was kind of enfuriating. but then again i ended playing NG+2 and with Bloodstained i think it will be NG+10 specially if we can NG with higher difficulty like in OOE. 
        
6) Do you believe that shards will be used on forging somehow? if yes, how?

err honestly i dont think so... i think the point of farming shards is to increase Miriam's arsenal and strenghten said arsenal of spells and thats it. Forging on the other hand should be limited to materials but thats what i think and honestly i dont mind if we need shards too.

7) Gear o Bloodstained: Forging-heavy (the majority of equipment will be obtained by forging), picking up heavy (the majority will be obtained at breakable walls, chests, secret rooms), or balanced?

as in the amount of items you can find i think it should be balanced but i bet you 100000G the strongest non backer weapons in the game will be obtained trough forging with some stupidly rare and valauble materials.

8) Miriam will forge equipment herself anywhere (kickstarter says she will use her knowledge in alchemy for it), she will need a special room for it (maybe her own room (there is a talk that Miriam will have a room inside the castle) or some other place) or someone else will do the forging for her? Who? Where?

i believe Johanes will assist Miriam with that matter and ofc that would be in a special room with tools and vials and weird things, videogame or not i dont expect miriam to pull out an alchemy laboratory out of her pants, i mean thats reserved for the hundreds of weapons and potions she carries. 

9) Only weapons was advertised for forging. Do you believe we will be able to forge overall gear? And potions will be craftable too?

Alchemy without Potion brewing? i can live if armors and accesories are out of the list but if potions are not craftable i swear i will be dissapointed and mad.

10) About crafting, Kickstarter talks about using "magi-crystals" for it. Magi-crystal is the name of the crystals engulfed on the body of Miriam and Gebel, of their curse. Magi-crystals will be used for forging. Do you believe they will give special effects to the gear (like a fire magi-crystal giving fire protection for an armor and fire elemental attacks for a weapon) or something else?

what BloodyTears92 said:
if this is how its going to work i will absolutely love it. in curse of darkness we had A restrincted and boring linear system for crafting but i prefer the one with diferent options much like the innocent devil evolution tree. that ladies and gentlemen its the TRUE FORMULA FOR CRAFTING MECHANICS~

There's no point in having a trial and error approach where materials are lost, since you can just reload a save game. That kind of stuff only works in MMOs.

I hate dawn of Sorrow. The pointless seal drawing aside, dawn of sorrow weapon crafting requires too many boss soul if I remember correctly. After I crafted death scythe, I feel it is even weaker than AOS death scythe. Well, I put more effort in DOS to craft death scythe which is weaker than the death scythe I found in AOS, it was a huge disappointment. Of course DOS requires player to grind more compared with OOE and AOS but the funny thing is, I cleared AOS and OOE at least 5 times each and I threw DOS away after I cleared it once.

No, no it was not quite fun. I know this isn't true, because I recently played and beat Dawn of Sorrow myself. I even forged the Claimh Solais, so I know just how tedious Dawn's forging system can be. Farming enemies isn't fun. Going in a room, killing an enemy in one (or a few) hits, leaving, and repeating that for 10-20 minutes is not fun. It's also not fun to have to choose whether you want to use that soul to improve your weapons or as souls are used by the soul system. More often than not, that led to me farming the soul a second time, which was just as boring as the first time. If you like farming stuff, go play an MMO. Farming should be kept to a minimum in a primarily single-player video game (unless it's a farming sim like Harvest Moon ).

I think he said it is lazy design because it just copied the formula from MMORPG and it it tedious. On the other hand, pickup something and win the game is not lazy because some games don't have crafting system, you can't say a game is lazy just because it doesn't have crafting system, can you?

While I am not against crafting, I think the the bonus of crafting weapon should be significant.

Scenario 1:
Sword A ->Sword B
Requires:
material A:1
material B:1
material C:2
stat:
HP:100
DEF:50
ATK:100

Scenario B
Sword A ->Sword B
Requires:
material A:10
material B:100
material C:200
stat:
HP:10
DEF:5
ATK:5

For scenario 1, I feel the weapon crafting is rewarding. For Scenario 2, I feel it is tedious and it is a waste of time

The grinding is only as necessary as your level of OCD makes you do it. I can fully go in and feel like I've experienced these games fully without having to complete the inventory screen, and I think that is the majority of people. Yeah, perhaps some of us don't like grinding, so we're just not going to do very much of it and that's fine ;p

The thing is, that grinding is almost never something you have to do in these games. It's all there to add to the joy of exploration and getting/finding more and more stuff, which is the idea of this specific genre. If that is or becomes a chore to you and kills your enjoyment, then what you have against it now is more relative to your personality than a flaw of its design. You probably beat it, decimating the hardest bosses 100 hours ago...

That's where all of these other modes can come in. Instead of dumping into something obsessively that you don't even like, there are now all these other things you can do. I can't see that not helping.