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Post by Enkeria on Jun 26, 2017 13:08:45 GMT -6
Yes, we have been talking about difficulty for a while now. And ideas are plenty. I urge everyone to take part in this thread: How hard do you want Bloodstained to be? bloodstainedfanforums.com/thread/584/bloodstaineds-difficultyif you want to talk about how difficult the game should be. This thread is about how we decide the difficulty, if we have a choice.Reason for this thread (that could be combined with other threads if you guys feel it is needed) are this: I saw this video - and about 24 minutes in, it came clear to me that the game chose the difficulty (somewhat) based out of the battle we had with Dracula as Richter in Castlevania Symphony of the Night. I never knew this. I do remember that I failed once and Maria came to rescue me, but that was only one time. Perhaps the first time I played it! They reveal in the video, which many of you probably already knew, that if you fail against Dracula, you become invincible and after the game really starts you have some changes to make the game "easier" or "different". This made me think about how they could make it interesting in Bloodstained. Which one of these below would suit you BEST, no matter if it will be as such or not. I know some of the features below are almost impossible to make, but I want to give everyone the choice in requesting it in the poll. So here are a bit info on what I have been thinking. Choose Difficulty: The Classic Mode StyleIn Diablo III we have in that game let us choose between a whole variety of difficulties. From "easy", all the way up to i nferno, torment levels. Each level, beyond normal adds bonuses, but makes the enemies and bosses being more aggressive and have more health and powerful attacks. It is very interesting and it even let the player change difficulty during game. The amount of "luck" in the game is also changed to over 1000% in drops, making the effort in killing "slow" a bit more rewarding. If we could have 3 or more difficulties, it would actually be nice to try them out one by one. Secret Gear: The Code StyleThere is only normal mode. But with "secret codes" - you change the game. It would perhaps work like gain starter items, like good weapons, armor and such in the beginning to make it easy. Or lock your character so you can't change more than your weapon (use standard armor all the way through). Or giving you minus on your stats right at the beginning, so you need to work harder to NOT DIE and so on. Meet a Monster: The SotN Advanced StyleYou make a test in the beginning, that test will decide what difficulty you will end up with. New players might get easy and so on. The way this mode would be handled could be anyones guess. It might give you items at the start, or in hard difficulty perhaps make your luck less, or enemies punch harder and have more health. Evolve: The Progression StyleThis is a difficult one to have in the game, and by nature it will be the one that we are actually getting in a minor curve. What I mean by this mode is less like a curve and more like steps, giant leaps from room to room that you need to become better. Perhaps it is experience based, that the more experience you get, the less experience you will obtain and the harder the monsters will be. Also the bosses might become nightmarish to meet if you grind too hard. The backflip on this is that, while you grind, you are trying to become stronger (not weaker), but at the same time, the game must follow your progress and this mode would let you feel somewhat powerful if you handle the strategies good enough. The bad part would be that the feeling of being awesome is lacking. It could however let us perhaps use powerful items, that would make us OP if we know more about how and when they should be used. Making the game easier. This mode is about balance, perhaps TOO MUCH balance, and as a soft curve it is probably the basis of the game already, but I leave this as a choice because some people like the idea of it being super challenging all the way to the end. Unlock help: The Vendor StyleSo you are stuck, the game is "too hard", you have no clue how to beat whatever challenge that needs to be done. Now what? This mode would let you buy things out of a currency that you get for each failure. Like every life you wasted have become a type of currency used to buy a super-powerful item that will make the challenge easy. It can however only be unlocked if you have tried at least X amount of times. It grows on you: The Replay StyleFirst start to finish is easy. Next time around you unlock the "normal" mode, and you may choose it if you want. Now the game is normal from start to finish. After that, it becomes harder and harder. Replay after replay (and yes, you must kill endboss only, not complete the whole map). My Own StylePlease comment and explain your style. Thanks Edit: Did some changes in the text. Thanks for clearing that out lovelydumpling
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 26, 2017 13:33:24 GMT -6
Bringing this quote over to point out that SotN didn't really have an easy mode as they claimed. In fact, I'd argue the stat increases for doing the Richter fight perfectly had a larger, more helpful effect than starting with a single high potion.
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Post by Busterific on Jun 26, 2017 18:26:59 GMT -6
I've seen a few games attempt to do what you're calling the Progression Style, and it was never something came out well in my opinion.
The ones I've seen that have something similar to what you're calling the Vendor Style came off better than the progressions style, but I don't think that's something that works well on it's own and should not preclude being able to select a starting difficulty from a menu.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jun 26, 2017 18:33:13 GMT -6
I voted "The My Own Style" mostly because, as i have been saying in some past threads, i want Bloodstained to be a spiritual sucessor to Castlevania, but it needs to walk on it's own and every little change could be in benefit of that. SOTN was unique, but all the other games followed some kind of unlockable difficultes. So, here's my idea, based on games i played before: The game has default difficulty at the beginning. You simply can't choose anything and you must play at the difficult the developers intended the game to have. After the game is finished, you unlock a option that DOES NOT WORK with the new game + you just unlocked, (only with fresh saves and new game + from those saves) where you can customize a ton of things in the game to your own liking, to increase replay factor, making it easier, harder or simply different. The options are: TO MAKE THE GAME HARDERLevel Lock: Impose a max level between 1, 50, 99 and 250 (yes, you can break the game's level limit). Arranged Enemies placement: Enemies are shuffled around in a specific way, putting harder, late-game enemies since the beginning. Harder Enemies: enemies are harder, have more health and deal more damage, having altered patterns, including bosses. No shop: the game has no shop. You must beat the game without ever buying anything. The shop only shows up if it is required to proceed. No shards: the game has no shards. You can't use shards at all, save for plot-relevant and progression ones. Any shard you may have (from new game +) can't be used at all. No Saves: the game has no saves. All saverooms are disabled. That means you can't save nor heal in saverooms, they are completely useless. No HP: player character has 1 HP and HP cannot be increased at all. A single hit from anything will kill the character instantly. Time Limit: the game has a time limit to finish, that you can select how much time is it (a great tool for speedrunners). When time runs out, Miriam dies automatically and the game is over. Time Limit automatically puts "No Saves" option ON too. TO MAKE THE GAME EASIERExp Booster: multiply how much exp you get from enemies, from x2 to x5. Drop rate Booster: multiply how easier it is to get items and shards from enemies, from x2 to x5. Gold Booster: multiply how much gold you get from each type of coin, multiplying their value from x2 to x10. Freebies: the game is filled with random treasure boxes that give random items, from potions to gold to equipment. Infinite Teleport: the player starts with a usable item that has infinite uses, called "Portable teleport". When used, the player can select any area of the map that the player has been before, to teleport there. This may not work sometimes (when it is plot-relevant for the player to not move to a certain location or to get out from where it is). Instant Revival: adds "10 x instant Revival" potions at the player's menu. When the player dies, the game will ask if he wants to use one. If affirmative, the player will automatically revive at the spot it died, with full health and full MP. Those potions cannot be bought or obtained in the game at all. Those 10 are all the player has. Most of those options have achievments / medals attached to them, that you earn for bragging purposes. This has a potential risk to fall into "decision paralysis" (when you give a gamer, too many choices, he/she may end up not choosing anything), but i think it could be a nice idea. EDIT: Added easier options!
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 26, 2017 18:55:40 GMT -6
I voted "The My Own Style" mostly because, as i have been saying in some past threads, i want Bloodstained to be a spiritual sucessor to Castlevania, but it needs to walk on it's own and every little change could be in benefit of that. SOTN was unique, but all the other games followed some kind of unlockable difficultes. So, here's my idea, based on games i played before: The game has default difficulty at the beginning. You simply can't choose anything and you must play at the difficult the developers intended the game to have. After the game is finished, you unlock a option that DOES NOT WORK with the new game + you just unlocked, (only with fresh saves and new game + from those saves) where you can customize a ton of things in the game to your own liking, to increase replay factor, making it easier, harder or simply different. The options are: Level Lock: Impose a max level between 1, 50, 99 and 250 (yes, you can break the game's level limit). Arranged Enemies placement: Enemies are shuffled around in a specific way, putting harder, late-game enemies since the beginning. Harder Enemies: enemies are harder, have more health and deal more damage, having altered patterns, including bosses. No shop: the game has no shop. You must beat the game without ever buying anything. The shop only shows up if it is required to proceed. No shards: the game has no shards. You can't use shards at all, save for plot-relevant and progression ones. Any shard you may have (from new game +) can't be used at all. No Saves: the game has no saves. All saverooms are disabled. That means you can't save nor heal in saverooms, they are completely useless. No HP: player character has 1 HP and HP cannot be increased at all. A single hit from anything will kill the character instantly. Time Limit: the game has a time limit to finish, that you can select how much time is it (a great tool for speedrunners). When time runs out, Miriam dies automatically and the game is over. Time Limit automatically puts "No Saves" option ON too. Most of those options have achievments / medals attached to them, that you earn for bragging purposes. This has a potential risk to fall into "decision paralysis" (when you give a gamer, too many choices, he/she may end up not choosing anything), but i think it could be a nice idea. That sounds more like a Challenge Mode than a difficulty selector. It's been done before, but it's a pretty neat idea. I could see having a challenge mode in the game. Though you discussed there being options to make it easier, yet none of those options do that. (The closest being the level cap breaker, but the level cap typically isn't reached in a typical playthrough in Castlevania games regardless.)
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jun 26, 2017 19:13:59 GMT -6
I voted "The My Own Style" mostly because, as i have been saying in some past threads, i want Bloodstained to be a spiritual sucessor to Castlevania, but it needs to walk on it's own and every little change could be in benefit of that. SOTN was unique, but all the other games followed some kind of unlockable difficultes. So, here's my idea, based on games i played before: The game has default difficulty at the beginning. You simply can't choose anything and you must play at the difficult the developers intended the game to have. After the game is finished, you unlock a option that DOES NOT WORK with the new game + you just unlocked, (only with fresh saves and new game + from those saves) where you can customize a ton of things in the game to your own liking, to increase replay factor, making it easier, harder or simply different. The options are: Level Lock: Impose a max level between 1, 50, 99 and 250 (yes, you can break the game's level limit). Arranged Enemies placement: Enemies are shuffled around in a specific way, putting harder, late-game enemies since the beginning. Harder Enemies: enemies are harder, have more health and deal more damage, having altered patterns, including bosses. No shop: the game has no shop. You must beat the game without ever buying anything. The shop only shows up if it is required to proceed. No shards: the game has no shards. You can't use shards at all, save for plot-relevant and progression ones. Any shard you may have (from new game +) can't be used at all. No Saves: the game has no saves. All saverooms are disabled. That means you can't save nor heal in saverooms, they are completely useless. No HP: player character has 1 HP and HP cannot be increased at all. A single hit from anything will kill the character instantly. Time Limit: the game has a time limit to finish, that you can select how much time is it (a great tool for speedrunners). When time runs out, Miriam dies automatically and the game is over. Time Limit automatically puts "No Saves" option ON too. Most of those options have achievments / medals attached to them, that you earn for bragging purposes. This has a potential risk to fall into "decision paralysis" (when you give a gamer, too many choices, he/she may end up not choosing anything), but i think it could be a nice idea. That sounds more like a Challenge Mode than a difficulty selector. It's been done before, but it's a pretty neat idea. I could see having a challenge mode in the game. Though you discussed there being options to make it easier, yet none of those options do that. (The closest being the level cap breaker, but the level cap typically isn't reached in a typical playthrough in Castlevania games regardless.) YOU ARE RIGHT, let me add the options to make it easier too. EDITED MY POST.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 26, 2017 19:42:37 GMT -6
I like it now. That's an awesome Challenge Mode. I'd probably balance it out with harder and strategically placed enemies with higher drop/gold rates
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Post by Busterific on Jun 26, 2017 21:15:46 GMT -6
Something along the lines of the Zelda Randomizer that I saw on a let's play at one point could potentially add a lot of replay value as well.
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jun 27, 2017 0:49:31 GMT -6
Just give me the canonical difficulties and I will be fine. Even only normal and nightmare (this one can be unlockable or available from the start) can suffice.
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jun 27, 2017 17:07:54 GMT -6
Personally, I prefer a single difficulty with on-death temporary difficulty adjustment options(such as enemies in the area you died in having 1/2 health until you leave the area or beat its boss). The reason for this that in this sort of game "difficulty" is generally changed by making enemies take more or fewer hits to kill(and harder or weaker hitting themselves), which is a pretty dull way to change difficulty IMO. I'd just as soon have a single difficulty that the game is balanced against with ways to alleviate the frustration for those who get stuck. "Hard" mode via turning enemies into larger bags of HP and the player into a smaller one bores me beyond belief.
Now if we were talking about smarter combat AI and faster attack animations, that would be a different story, but the games that balance difficulty in that manner are vanishingly few in number.
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Post by Busterific on Jun 27, 2017 18:33:05 GMT -6
Personally, I prefer a single difficulty with on-death temporary difficulty adjustment options(such as enemies in the area you died in having 1/2 health until you leave the area or beat its boss). Games I've played that try to tweak the difficulty on the fly never seemed to work well from the ones that I've played. I'd think the leveling system would be how this would be handled rather than having the game tweak enemy difficulty on death. Typically if I find an area too hard in this type of game I go explore elsewhere to build up a few levels and come back.
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jun 27, 2017 18:58:37 GMT -6
Personally, I prefer a single difficulty with on-death temporary difficulty adjustment options(such as enemies in the area you died in having 1/2 health until you leave the area or beat its boss). Games I've played that try to tweak the difficulty on the fly never seemed to work well from the ones that I've played. I'd think the leveling system would be how this would be handled rather than having the game tweak enemy difficulty on death. Typically if I find an area too hard in this type of game I go explore elsewhere to build up a few levels and come back. In general, I just dislike difficulty via health and damage manipulation in the first place. The "challenge" of taking longer to kill each enemy isn't something I find fun. I'd rather have a game balanced with a specific difficulty in mind, and then have a downward adjustment available for those that need or want it. As for just going to another area to level up, that's all fine and good, but it doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand(unless that's just your way of saying "one difficulty for everyone," in which case, cool). We're talking about how we think a difficulty system in general should work, not how players themselves should overcome difficulty.
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Post by Busterific on Jun 27, 2017 20:56:51 GMT -6
Games I've played that try to tweak the difficulty on the fly never seemed to work well from the ones that I've played. I'd think the leveling system would be how this would be handled rather than having the game tweak enemy difficulty on death. Typically if I find an area too hard in this type of game I go explore elsewhere to build up a few levels and come back. In general, I just dislike difficulty via health and damage manipulation in the first place. The "challenge" of taking longer to kill each enemy isn't something I find fun. I'd rather have a game balanced with a specific difficulty in mind, and then have a downward adjustment available for those that need or want it. As for just going to another area to level up, that's all fine and good, but it doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand(unless that's just your way of saying "one difficulty for everyone," in which case, cool). We're talking about how we think a difficulty system in general should work, not how players themselves should overcome difficulty. I'd rather have the difficulty fixed than them trying to make it adjust dynamically which was the point I was trying to make before. The info on my play style was more about why that was my preference. I don't have much issue with the game being broken into the standard Easy, Normal, Hard levels if they let you choose your preference and not lock out the Hard level until you finish Normal. This allows individuals of varying skill levels to pick something appropriate to them. I also think there's a sweet spot with the enemy hit points where if you go over it's a grind to kill them, but if it's not enough then they become one shot kills and don't get much chance to attack back. Usually if it's set to where they get to go through their full attack pattern once or twice when you first encounter them is about right. I tend to not like enemies that you have to grind at in this type of game. Changing the enemy placement and number of enemies is a somewhat better approach if they're don't change the actual enemy logic at the harder levels.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 28, 2017 1:28:44 GMT -6
I don't like the idea of "taking longer to kill an enemy" either, at least not when they become total damage sponges But the idea of raising attack and HP in difficulty isn't so much about making enemies harder to kill, but more along the lines of punishing you more heavily for your mistakes. You can't afford to make as many mistakes, as you're not going to get away with killing enemies too fast to make them and you're going to be in a world of pain once you do. It's the reason why Dark Souls enemies do so much whopping damage, though the game is built in a way that you're back in the action quickly enough that death isn't a complete drag. The game wants to make sure you have proper mastery of the situation and can complete it while making minimal mistakes.
That's what Hard Mode is about in most games. It's meant to just be less forgiving of your mistakes than Normal or Easy. But for someone who really has mastered these mechanics, this isn't going to be anything new for them. That's why it's a bit annoying when "Very Hard" is just "Hard Mode, but even more enemy HP/damage." Because then you missed the point. You already did the mastery test with Hard. Very Hard needs to be something new to master. This is where you want to rearrange your enemies and attack patterns.
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jun 28, 2017 7:02:59 GMT -6
Order of Ecclesia's hard mode was wonderful, though. Increased damage and punishment, but also different and brutal enemy placement.
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Silver in the Dark
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 28, 2017 7:38:30 GMT -6
Order of Ecclesia's hard mode was wonderful, though. Increased damage and punishment, but also different and brutal enemy placement. Never played it, heard great about it. Might get the console one day to try it out. Or if it may become a bonus game in the future somehow on a console I own then. Anyway. Interesting! Hard Mode AND different enemy placement?! Did not know that! That feature is something I would love to see, having high end enemies a bit closer towards your more difficult adventures, and different placements. That would probably be my main requested feature if we are getting the option to choose our difficulty. I know there are some random generated features, but most of what I have come to expect about this is the environment. Do we get random enemy placements? If so, would it take too much energy and time to map it out? Hmm. And I were wondering. Do we want a super hard mode? Like... From a hidden code or something? Insane in so many ways? And do we want a super easy mode for people with all kinds of handicaps?
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jun 28, 2017 8:25:08 GMT -6
Never played it, heard great about it. Might get the console one day to try it out. Or if it may become a bonus game in the future somehow on a console I own then. Anyway. Interesting! Hard Mode AND different enemy placement?! Did not know that! (...) Just for you to have one idea, Order of Ecclesia has a starting area that is like a training ground (NOT to be confused with Training HALL, a secret dungeon). OoE doesn't have weapons, Shanoa uses magic for everything, a magic called Glyph art (including magic that mimicks weapons), so, you start with absolutely nothing but Confodere (a rapier-like magic attack). After you pick it up, some demons are summoned for you to learn how to play. At Hard mode, THAT PART has enemies from, if i'm not mistaken, two areas later being summoned too, and you are at LV1, severely ungeared and with nothing but the weakest attack of the whole game. I died 5 or 6 times at the training starting area at Hard Mode due to that (...) And I were wondering. Do we want a super hard mode? Like... From a hidden code or something? Insane in so many ways? And do we want a super easy mode for people with all kinds of handicaps? We have Nightmare Mode that was conquered at stretch goals. So, i think Bloodstained will have at least Normal mode, Hard mode AND Nightmare mode. About a super easy mode, i'm not really sure. I think the normal mode will already be easy enough, IGA said it himself he likes to do games everyone can pick up and play.
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 28, 2017 9:03:22 GMT -6
Never played it, heard great about it. Might get the console one day to try it out. Or if it may become a bonus game in the future somehow on a console I own then. Anyway. Interesting! Hard Mode AND different enemy placement?! Did not know that! (...) Just for you to have one idea, Order of Ecclesia has a starting area that is like a training ground (NOT to be confused with Training HALL, a secret dungeon). OoE doesn't have weapons, Shanoa uses magic for everything, a magic called Glyph art (including magic that mimicks weapons), so, you start with absolutely nothing but Confodere (a rapier-like magic attack). After you pick it up, some demons are summoned for you to learn how to play. At Hard mode, THAT PART has enemies from, if i'm not mistaken, two areas later being summoned too, and you are at LV1, severely ungeared and with nothing but the weakest attack of the whole game. I died 5 or 6 times at the training starting area at Hard Mode due to that (...) And I were wondering. Do we want a super hard mode? Like... From a hidden code or something? Insane in so many ways? And do we want a super easy mode for people with all kinds of handicaps? We have Nightmare Mode that was conquered at stretch goals. So, i think Bloodstained will have at least Normal mode, Hard mode AND Nightmare mode. About a super easy mode, i'm not really sure. I think the normal mode will already be easy enough, IGA said it himself he likes to do games everyone can pick up and play. Thanks for the information. I was thinking the Super Easy Mode more around the lines to actually help out people with disfunctions. Since my mom is a gamer, but are colorblind and soon blind overall, shake a lot and such, I always tend to think about what games could implement to help those that actually wanna play (to some degree) but can't because of.. Well, combinations, dumb colors etc. Uhm, so I thought like those kind of things. But I understand this game wouldn't need such a mode, even if the very thought behind it is good. I leave the super easy modes up for the APP developers instead. They should do more stuff for people with a handicap.
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Post by DSLevantine on Jun 28, 2017 9:33:19 GMT -6
Order of Ecclesia's hard mode was wonderful, though. Increased damage and punishment, but also different and brutal enemy placement. yup. The level cap raised to 255, and you can equip dual death rings, then the best equipment queen of hearts or something on second play through, I love seeing shanoa doing insane damage to boss.
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Oct 29, 2019 17:44:00 GMT -6
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freddythemonkey
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May 23, 2017 4:59:35 GMT -6
May 2017
freddythemonkey
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jun 28, 2017 15:14:52 GMT -6
Order of Ecclesia's hard mode was wonderful, though. Increased damage and punishment, but also different and brutal enemy placement. yup. The level cap raised to 255, and you can equip dual death rings, then the best equipment queen of hearts or something on second play through, I love seeing shanoa doing insane damage to boss. I did that as well as a hard mode level cap 1 with a clear save. Hardest frickin' thing I've ever done in an IGAvania lol. Far more difficult than Portrait of Ruin's level 1 hard mode.
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