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Post by CastleDan on Jun 19, 2017 10:50:44 GMT -6
Maybe it's the animation itself that are throwing people off? Maybe it LOOKS slower than it really is? I would hope so for the floaty part. If Miriams got extra hang time as some have mentioned, changing that seems like it would not be as strait forward as it sounds. I would think shortening the hang time would cause issues with the existing level designs as she'd likely no longer be able to jump to some platforms if you started changing her jump mechanics to make it less floaty by reducing hang time. I'm guessing other than possibly minor animation tweaks they will not be messing much with the overall mechanics much at this point.
Good, because it feels like they nailed it to me. If I want to know if they got the feel right I look to Romscout who has played the games to death and has learned every little intricacy to it. He says they nailed it and I'm with him on it.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 19, 2017 11:40:26 GMT -6
I wish multiquotes were a slight bit easier to preform in this forum. But SOTN and every game post CotM was always killer in terms of controls to me. That's why the comparisons were being drawn to previous Iga games, not other general Igavania games. That said, the complaint wasn't so much about control than the animations themselves. That's the argument trying to be made here. Not that it actually plays sluggish, but that these animations make it appear more sluggish by adding extra frames of animation where they aren't necessary. This concern isn't so much for the majority of us backers who have already gotten to play the game and so know that it actually does feel like Castlevania. This is in concern for others who see the trailers, see that it looks sluggish, and consider not buying/slacker-backing the game. Those of us who have actually played it knows that it plays great, but these people who can only watch it see something that betrays that, and all they have is other's word on it that "yeah guys it plays great, we promise!" Perhaps if they release a short demo on or soon before release to the public, that'll help suede this issue as well. But it wouldn't really be hard to touch up these animations. Again, this is more about animations than control. The hangtime is more than double Alucard's, but this is a 2 frame to a 5 frame difference. A 15th of a second to a 6th of a second. The difference between them is 3 frames, a tenth of a second— not really enough to significantly hamper her horizontal movement but enough for the animation to uncannily stick in your head and appear slow and awkward. Unless Bloodstained was about extremely split second pixel perfect platforming (which it's most certainly not... heck, I don't even think the Classicvanias were...), shortening the horizontal movement by 3 frames wouldn't make an impact on the control of the game. Yeah, minor animation tweaks was pretty much the whole point of that tumblr. The asker asked why it looked sluggish, and the developer's answers stuck to animations and poses. It wasn't about how the game feels to play, just how it looked. And to be honest, even I was a bit worried about the game until people started actually getting their hands on it to play it last year.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 19, 2017 11:56:00 GMT -6
I wish multiquotes were a slight bit easier to preform in this forum. There's an easy way to do it, it's just not obvious how you're supposed to. If you click the gear icon and then "select post", select all the posts you want to quote and then hit reply, you'll have all of them quoted in the text box. FRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMES
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 19, 2017 12:52:56 GMT -6
I wish multiquotes were a slight bit easier to preform in this forum. There's an easy way to do it, it's just not obvious how you're supposed to. If you click the gear icon and then "select post", select all the posts you want to quote and then hit reply, you'll have all of them quoted in the text box. FRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMES Oh. Well neat. Thank you for the info, that will hopefully be helpful in the future. (Tries to think of more words to extend this post so that it seems worthwhile of a forum post.) ... FRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMES Edit: I just read it in my head like how a zombie moans "Braaaains" all of a sudden and it made me think of a satirical dystopian future of PC Master Race zombies talking about that sweet 4kHD60FPS action.
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 19, 2017 13:22:38 GMT -6
I wish multiquotes were a slight bit easier to preform in this forum. But SOTN and every game post CotM was always killer in terms of controls to me. That's why the comparisons were being drawn to previous Iga games, not other general Igavania games. That said, the complaint wasn't so much about control than the animations themselves. That's the argument trying to be made here. Not that it actually plays sluggish, but that these animations make it appear more sluggish by adding extra frames of animation where they aren't necessary. This concern isn't so much for the majority of us backers who have already gotten to play the game and so know that it actually does feel like Castlevania. This is in concern for others who see the trailers, see that it looks sluggish, and consider not buying/slacker-backing the game. Those of us who have actually played it knows that it plays great, but these people who can only watch it see something that betrays that, and all they have is other's word on it that "yeah guys it plays great, we promise!" Perhaps if they release a short demo on or soon before release to the public, that'll help suede this issue as well. But it wouldn't really be hard to touch up these animations. Again, this is more about animations than control. The hangtime is more than double Alucard's, but this is a 2 frame to a 5 frame difference. A 15th of a second to a 6th of a second. The difference between them is 3 frames, a tenth of a second— not really enough to significantly hamper her horizontal movement but enough for the animation to uncannily stick in your head and appear slow and awkward. Unless Bloodstained was about extremely split second pixel perfect platforming (which it's most certainly not... heck, I don't even think the Classicvanias were...), shortening the horizontal movement by 3 frames wouldn't make an impact on the control of the game. Yeah, minor animation tweaks was pretty much the whole point of that tumblr. The asker asked why it looked sluggish, and the developer's answers stuck to animations and poses. It wasn't about how the game feels to play, just how it looked. And to be honest, even I was a bit worried about the game until people started actually getting their hands on it to play it last year. Oh I 100% agree that watching it is not the same as playing it and people need to get their hands on it. That and it's mainly the animation at fault not the actual speed or floaty feel. However, I thought you said the same about SOTN's animations too? That I can't agree with, that game is animated beautifully. I wouldn't change a single frame of how Alucard moves. There's a way he animates that looks very slow but there's a perception around it that he's moving so quickly that it looks slow. I know that's hard to understand but it's like whenever he turns around and pulls his cape up there's a very angelic/vampiric way about his animated movements. It works with all the flowing materials he had on him and the after images. Granted all the points about Miriam not having as much in the form of flowing material kinda doesn't allow the same for her. The aura definitely helped it though.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 19, 2017 13:32:20 GMT -6
However, I thought you said the same about SOTN's animations too? That I can't agree with, that game is animated beautifully. I wouldn't change a single frame of how Alucard moves. There's a way he animates that looks very slow but there's a perception around it that he's moving so quickly that it looks slow. I know that's hard to understand but it's like whenever he turns around and pulls his cape up there's a very angelic/vampiric way about his animated movements. It works with all the flowing materials he had on him and the after images. Granted all the points about Miriam not having as much in the form of flowing material kinda doesn't allow the same for her. The aura definitely helped it though. The only issue with Alucard I was pointing out was the turning animation. Sure, it looks cool, but it feels slow and unresponsive. Before long, most players skip it by jumping because that's faster and more responsive. That's pretty critical considering the sort of game it is. If I recall correctly, later Igavania's shorten the turning animation by quite a bit and possibly even push you at the same speed as if you were just running forward. Otherwise, for the most part Alucard looks and handles great.
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 19, 2017 13:43:30 GMT -6
I wish multiquotes were a slight bit easier to preform in this forum. There's an easy way to do it, it's just not obvious how you're supposed to. If you click the gear icon and then "select post", select all the posts you want to quote and then hit reply, you'll have all of them quoted in the text box. FRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMES Will try it. Been very difficult to copy + phase everytime I went back to grab another quote. Thanks.
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Post by exile on Jun 19, 2017 16:18:10 GMT -6
Good, because it feels like they nailed it to me. If I want to know if they got the feel right I look to Romscout who has played the games to death and has learned every little intricacy to it. He says they nailed it and I'm with him on it. I haven't even played this demo and I can see that. I'm not sure why people say the game looks slow. In comparison to what, exactly? Perhaps a frantic match of Marvel vs. Capcom? It looks perfectly in line with other Castlevania titles to me. Minor graphical qualms aside, I think the gameplay is a faithful recreation of the SoTN experience. I'm also perfectly okay with the "floaty" jumping. Improve the animations if you like, but it seems fine. Alucard's jumping wasn't exactly realistic, but it worked with the gameplay, as I assume this will. When you're dodging projectiles and flying unrealistic distances between platforms, it seems silly to expect conventional jump physics.
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jun 20, 2017 1:56:35 GMT -6
lovelydumpling: That's why I said that I understand the reason of the critique, but I just personally can't really see the problem. To me it doesn't look weird, but I can understand why it may seem so to others.
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Post by Yu Karasu on Jun 23, 2017 18:30:32 GMT -6
Isn't the animations that is bothering me, but the background - the scene - as a whole.
It lacks polish and colors. Now, everything seems so blank and lifeless. You have Miriam with bright colors stand out in a dead scene. Not dead by aesthetic, but dead because of the lack of colors, the lack of live in it.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 24, 2017 1:17:08 GMT -6
Isn't the animations that is bothering me, but the background - the scene - as a whole. It lacks polish and colors. Now, everything seems so blank and lifeless. You have Miriam with bright colors stand out in a dead scene. Not dead by aesthetic, but dead because of the lack of colors, the lack of live in it. I'm noticing though that recent screens and updates to the environments like shown in the DICE interview have done a fair amount in adding more color to the game at least. I'm finally feeling more optimistic about things again. PS Thank you Pure Miriam and others for helping me out with my concerns there.
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Post by LordKaiser on Jun 24, 2017 12:30:15 GMT -6
The thing is that many of us thought that the game would look 2D on a 3D engine like Guilty Gear Xrd but with the art from this game artist instead of anime but sadly inti-Creates could not achieve what Arc System Works had achieved and went for their own thing simply using shaders with 3D assets so it looks like Symphony of the Night but IDK if it will work in the end. I will wait till the details get added, maybe with those the game will look better. This is unrelated to this game but here you can see the old model of 2B on Nier:Automata before the details got added. blog.us.playstation.com/2017/04/03/an-exclusive-look-at-the-creation-of-2b-by-nier-automatas-character-modeller/ So I guess that the characters and the stages are at phase #2.
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 25, 2017 10:13:15 GMT -6
The thing is that many of us thought that the game would look 2D on a 3D engine like Guilty Gear Xrd but with the art from this game artist instead of anime but sadly inti-Creates could not achieve what Arc System Works had achieved and went for their own thing simply using shaders with 3D assets so it looks like Symphony of the Night but IDK if it will work in the end. I will wait till the details get added, maybe with those the game will look better. This is unrelated to this game but here you can see the old model of 2B on Nier:Automata before the details got added. blog.us.playstation.com/2017/04/03/an-exclusive-look-at-the-creation-of-2b-by-nier-automatas-character-modeller/ So I guess that the characters and the stages are at phase #2. If anyone actually expected Guilty Gear quality then they set themselves up for disappointment. What they do is incredibly hard and time consuming and they do it for a fighting game not a game of this size. There was never a way to get it to that look. They just used it as an example of wanting to achieve a more 2d look.... playing the demo it certainly gave me the feeling.
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Post by ForwardDeveloper on Jun 25, 2017 11:09:16 GMT -6
I think more attention could be given to the post processing.
The game assets look great, especially the skinned meshes (the characters), we can see there was lot of work put on them. Some static meshes (props and map pieces) could use larger textures, but it is a just a few, overall they look great too.
One thing that you can improve to give the game a more finished look is the post processing effects. Especially on the foreground, it looks a bit flat, too clean. There are plenty of post processing effects that come built in UE4. If I may, I will recommend you to play with them a little bit, you can add a lot of value to the game by applying some post processing, to get the game to look a bit more grainy, textured. Aside from it, everything is looking very promising.
Anyway, best luck the developers!
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Post by Yu Karasu on Jun 25, 2017 14:03:26 GMT -6
I'm noticing though that recent screens and updates to the environments like shown in the DICE interview have done a fair amount in adding more color to the game at least. I'm finally feeling more optimistic about things again. I'll keep an eye out them. The E3 trailer and gameplay was problematic, graphically speaking The thing is that many of us thought that the game would look 2D on a 3D engine like Guilty Gear Xrd but with the art from this game artist instead of anime but sadly inti-Creates could not achieve what Arc System Works had achieved and went for their own thing simply using shaders with 3D assets so it looks like Symphony of the Night but IDK if it will work in the end. I will wait till the details get added, maybe with those the game will look better. That's not my case. I am expecting a level of quality similar of the concept art, but not with that 2D feel, but rather the aesthetic, treatment and filters in it. I'll mention fatihG lightning example on a scenario, and this is exactly the palette of colors that gives the red-ish, sunset feeling that you see in the official illustrations and concept art. bloodstainedfanforums.com/attachment/download/478In this example, you have everything. The original palette of colors, the mood that something is in underground or inside and shadow casting in proper places to have your dark aesthetic. This without removing the original colors of the background. So yes. The major problem right now is post processing. Just give some treatment and you'll have a finished look at no time. You can always argue that is "not release yet" but lets remember that each trailer needs to build hype to make people interest in the IP, that's one of the main reasons of its existence. Right now it looks very alpha-build with all this blank colors and scenarios and I do hope the aesthetic will be polished in the next trailer, demo release.
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 25, 2017 16:06:14 GMT -6
Let me get this thing right.
Post Processing will add grain, fog, dirt, dim lights, softer shadows, filters and such on the textures of choice, right?
In that case, the "too clean" statements are pretty much nullified after that switch is hit "ON"!?
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Post by Yu Karasu on Jun 25, 2017 16:22:01 GMT -6
Let me get this thing right. Post Processing will add grain, fog, dirt, dim lights, softer shadows, filters and such on the textures of choice, right? In that case, the "too clean" statements are pretty much nullified after that switch is hit "ON"!? I honestly don't think it's that simple and that fact alone worries me as we get closer and closer to a final build. Let's hope they work on this matter properly. Well, this is why we are here though, to give feedback. What they are going to do with this is another matter, but we can at least forward our concerns and how to fix it.
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 25, 2017 16:44:25 GMT -6
Let me get this thing right. Post Processing will add grain, fog, dirt, dim lights, softer shadows, filters and such on the textures of choice, right? In that case, the "too clean" statements are pretty much nullified after that switch is hit "ON"!? I honestly don't think it's that simple and that fact alone worries me as we get closer and closer to a final build. Let's hope they work on this matter properly. Well, this is why we are here though, to give feedback. What they are going to do with this is another matter, but we can at least forward our concerns and how to fix it. Comparing the village and the latest Galleon Minerva footage, it seems like both areas have been brought into some kind of processing. If there are areas that should be "porcelain perfect" I guess they are "done". But since these changes on those areas changed within a few months, they became way nicer in details. Galleon Minerva: imgur.com/TYit14NThe Village: imgur.com/a/LWuYe
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Post by estebant on Jun 25, 2017 17:15:24 GMT -6
I honestly don't think it's that simple and that fact alone worries me as we get closer and closer to a final build. Let's hope they work on this matter properly. Well, this is why we are here though, to give feedback. What they are going to do with this is another matter, but we can at least forward our concerns and how to fix it. Comparing the village and the latest Galleon Minerva footage, it seems like both areas have been brought into some kind of processing. If there are areas that should be "porcelain perfect" I guess they are "done". But since these changes on those areas changed within a few months, they became way nicer in details. Galleon Minerva: imgur.com/TYit14NThe Village: imgur.com/a/LWuYeYour dates on those images are messed up
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 25, 2017 17:25:59 GMT -6
Comparing the village and the latest Galleon Minerva footage, it seems like both areas have been brought into some kind of processing. If there are areas that should be "porcelain perfect" I guess they are "done". But since these changes on those areas changed within a few months, they became way nicer in details. Galleon Minerva: imgur.com/TYit14NThe Village: imgur.com/a/LWuYeYour dates on thos images are messed up What do you mean?
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